Duke Thomas: The Signal Appreciation 2020

[Restingvoice]

The issue I have with giving any credence to this supposition is that, speaking bluntly, Duke was never written in Batman and the Outsiders at all. All of his other points — from his bit in Zero Year, to his reintro in Endgame, to his official introduction and foundational building in We Are Robin, to what he pulled off in Synder's Superheavy storyline in the mainline Batman book, to his rebirth in All-Star Batman that leads into Batman and the Signal — all of these takes have weight and significance for Duke Thomas. And while there are some differences here and there, a continuing reader who is following Duke Thomas can very much get a sense of continuation and progression regarding the character of Duke Thomas from these works in the order I referred to them in. Hill paid no attention to anything of this. Instead, he punked The Signal first chance he got to show the threat of someone else, and then by and large just played lukewarm with the character, never really shelving them but never actually using them either. There was much lack of honesty and earnestness when it came to Hill's handling of Duke, and it began when he wrote Duke without ever considering his past, as if Duke never had a past before Bryan Edward Hill came along.

So the point I'm trying to make is that anyone who would say they preferred Hill's take on Duke over any prior take is saying they'd prefer a character who is not actually Duke Thomas/The Signal. Because that wasn't who Hill wrote. He wasn't actually writing for Duke. In this way, such a thing would come off as a bad-faith read from a person/people who never had any inclination to care for who Duke/The Signal is, was, and could be based on where he'd actually been. It's somewhere spanning the realms of being disingenuous to being outright intellectually dishonest. And it wouldn't be worth giving the time of day to that thought.

That still counts. So they don't like or not interested in the original version or the real Duke if you wanna call it that. They like this one because, looking at what Lemonpeace quoted, finally Duke is written to their taste.

They like him a bit weaker or not being the center of the plot, they like him as a supporting cast... if that's what you're saying.

[J. D. Guy]

That still counts. So they don't like or not interested in the original version or the real Duke if you wanna call it that. They like this one because, looking at what Lemonpeace quoted, finally Duke is written to their taste.

They like him a bit weaker or not being the center of the plot, they like him as a supporting cast... if that's what you're saying.

That's not really to Duke's favor, though, or his narrative legacy and longevity.

There's also a kind of unsettling factor to hear praise for when a character like Duke is "support" or "weaker" or "not in the center of the plot".

[lemonpeace]

That still counts. So they don't like or not interested in the original version or the real Duke if you wanna call it that. They like this one because, looking at what Lemonpeace quoted, finally Duke is written to their taste.

They like him a bit weaker or not being the center of the plot, they like him as a supporting cast... if that's what you're saying.

I'll put it like this, I've notice a lot of comic fans don't really have opinion on new characters. they'll latch onto buzz words about them to form an opinion, but they don't actually read the character. that's why you get the same short, lukewarm takes over and over a lot of the time.

"I hate Harper Row"

"did you read about her?"

"no but I saw her in one issue of this other book she was in and I can just tell she's an SJW pandering character who's gonna take my my Tim Drake from me"

these people who like "Duke" because of Outsiders reek of this. maybe they want a weaker character, they want a less emotionally intelligent character, want him as a support cast; but he was never protrayed as one if the strongest and he's been supporting cast before and people were still upset at him. so if he's not acting like his character up to this point then even if they like Hill's Duke (as J.D. pointed out) they still don't actually like Duke Thomas. And i'd go so far as to posit i still don't think these people have saying "Outsiders made me care about Duke" probably still don't have an opinion of Duke; they're doing the comic fan thing and regurgitating something they heard so they can have a take, this is probably their first time actually reading Duke in a book, and/or are basing that squarely off the strength of the one Duke centered issue (#3 or #4 i forget which, it was one of the best issues) and thinking about the entire run. because if we're looking at the entire run, Duke isn't the only character that was failed; he's just the most egregious.

I get where you're coming from about people having different taste, but it just seems unlikely that someone could read anything Duke's been in and say "oh boy, Outsiders' character development for Duke was objectively better than everything else that came before this." without having not read them (and I mean actually read them, not just turn the pages and quit). it just doesn't add up in a way that simple taste can account for, it's a statement/idea that's based in ignorance of the character and/or staight up intellectual dishonesty, partially if not singularly.

think of it like this, if Aquaman appeared on The Terrifics with waterbending powers and couldn't use his Call, didn't act like himself remotely or reference his past ever, and his waterbending powers did nothing but keep him out the way while others fought in his place; would that have been a valid take on the character of Aquaman? no, because at that point it's not Aquaman.

That's not really to Duke's favor, though, or his narrative legacy and longevity.

There's also a kind of unsettling factor to hear praise for when a character like Duke is "support" or "weaker" or "not in the center of the plot".

exactly, I've never heard of a comic character being praised for how inconsequential they are, that's usually their justification for advocating they get killed, retired, or retconned off.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

After reading issue 17 I feel like Hill's run would've worked better as a Black Lightning miniseries than a team book with an ensemble cast. I liked Duke and Cass's end scenes but i don't feel like Hill's run earned them. I'd give the Black Lightning focus a pass if Duke and Cass had an interesting dynamic but that never really happens. So its a decent run but ends with a whimper and a shrug.

Better luck next time bro.

[J. D. Guy]

After reading issue 17 I feel like Hill's run would've worked better as a Black Lightning miniseries than a team book with an ensemble cast. I liked Duke and Cass's end scenes but i don't feel like Hill's run earned them. I'd give the Black Lightning focus a pass if Duke and Cass had an interesting dynamic but that never really happens. So its a decent run but ends with a whimper and a shrug.

Better luck next time bro.

Duke and Cass actually was one of Duke's few real highlights in the run, I'd say. Maybe even his only one.

Granted, so much of the rest of the book kinds spoils and sabotages any good will and grace built up by their relationship/friendship being a positive. And in a way, their friendship felt uncharacteristically lopsided against Duke's favor. (This would kind of veer off into the foundational issues regarding the strife Hill put Duke through, along with how said foundation was poorly implemented/executed.)

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Duke and Cass actually was one of Duke's few real highlights in the run, I'd say. Maybe even his only one.

Granted, so much of the rest of the book kinds spoils and sabotages any good will and grace built up by their relationship/friendship being a positive. And in a way, their friendship felt uncharacteristically lopsided against Duke's favor. (This would kind of veer off into the foundational issues regarding the strife Hill put Duke through, along with how said foundation was poorly implemented/executed.)

Sorry i meant if "Duke and Cass had an interesting dynamic with Black Lightning".

I missed that when i initially posted.

[skyvolt2000]

That's not really to Duke's favor, though, or his narrative legacy and longevity.

There's also a kind of unsettling factor to hear praise for when a character like Duke is "support" or "weaker" or "not in the center of the plot".

It's not when you understand where that comes from.

It's coming from a place of give me a version of (blank) that is UNSELLABLE and is NOT a threat to who I like.

I'll put it like this, I've notice a lot of comic fans don't really have opinion on new characters. they'll latch onto buzz words about them to form an opinion, but they don't actually read the character. that's why you get the same short, lukewarm takes over and over a lot of the time.

In the last issue what did we see Bruce say to Cass?

"Do you know why I never asked if you wanted to be a Batgirl or A Robin?"
"I wanted to let you find yourself the way I did. You're better than I could be. You deserve more than an extension of my creation."
Now did he or did he NOT say he in so many words-Cass was BETTER than Robin or Batgirl? That is what he is saying.

He said that to Duke and all you know what broke out. With some of those unfans trying to rile up other fandoms to hate Duke-see Duke's kick on Hal Jordan.

And what did we see various writers pander to those unfans. From being left out of Tom King's Batman run, to the Detective Comics OUtsider arc & Outsiders book. Books that more folks will have access to than We Are Robin or Batman and Signal.

Why because SALES happen. Especially with Batman. Target is running one NOW by 2 get 1 book free.

And those are the weapons used to fight against anything with Duke be it a one shot or another mini by unfans.

[Restingvoice]

That's not really to Duke's favor, though, or his narrative legacy and longevity.

There's also a kind of unsettling factor to hear praise for when a character like Duke is "support" or "weaker" or "not in the center of the plot".

Oh I wasn't writing that to defend their support of Duke. It's the opposite actually.

I had a hunch when I was reading you guys' posts... because I remember Duke having a strong personality in We Are Robin

Then there's the fact that we know there are people that don't like him being pushed hard, so there has to be some people who prefer him... a little less strong... a little less attention... kind of like... he's a new character, so they don't want him to stand out too much.

Now, in this series, seems like he doesn't stand out much, and that's why he's more palatable. That's more to their taste.

That's what I suspected

It's coming from a place of give me a version of (blank) that is UNSELLABLE and is NOT a threat to who I like.

Yeah, like that. I wasn't thinking on unsellable, but more on the Not a Threat part.

[Aahz]

So they don't like or not interested in the original version or the real Duke if you wanna call it that.

Is there even an "original version" of him? To me this character has really lacked consistency, ha has barely been around for 5 years, but has been in so many different series and written by so many different writers that for me there isn't really a definitive take on this character.

[J. D. Guy]

Sorry i meant if "Duke and Cass had an interesting dynamic with Black Lightning".

I missed that when i initially posted.

Ohhhh. Okay.

[J. D. Guy]

Dagnabbit! Where's The Signal in all this Future State rebranded stuff!?

[lemonpeace]

Batman Family

In this future, Gotham City is controlled by the Magistrate. This villainous regime has taken control of the city, now under constant surveillance. All masked vigilantes have been outlawed and Batman has been killed. But led by an all-new Batman, a new assembly of Gotham’s guardians rise to give hope to all of those who lost it!

Oversized Comics:

• Future State: The Next Batman #1-4
• • The Next Batman, by John Ridley, Nick Derington and Laura Braga
  • Outsiders, by Brandon Thomas and Sumit Kumar
  • Arkham Knights, by Paul Jenkins and Jack Herbert
  • Batgirls, by Vita Ayala and Aneke
  • Gotham City Sirens, by Paula Sevenbergen and Emanuela Lupacchino
  
  
  
• Future State: Dark Detective #1-4
• • Dark Detective, by Mariko Tamaki and Dan Mora
  • Grifters, by Matthew Rosenberg and Carmine di Giandomenico
  • Red Hood, by Joshua Williamson and Giannis Milonogiannis

So i wanted to see who is writing the Outsiders story and it's Brandon Thomas!



Brandon Thomas did EXCELLENCE!!! which I for one am a massive fan of but also it's art style should look familiar to We are Robin fans!



I'm convinced Duke is appearing in Future State, he has the momentum!

[J. D. Guy]

So i wanted to see who is writing the Outsiders story and it's Bandon Thomas!



Brandon Thomas did EXCELLENCE!!! which I for one am a massive fan of but also it's art style should look familiar to We are Robin fans!



I'm convinced Duke is appearing Future State, he has the momentum!

Snap! Hope this pans out!

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Anyone like Duke's portrayal in the White Knight stories?

[lemonpeace]

Anyone like Duke's portrayal in the White Knight stories?

I haven't been reading any of the White Knight stuff since the middle, towards the end, of the first book. it was good but just wasn't grabbing me personally so it was a chore to remember to read it. The Duke in it is too far removed from Duke in the main continuity for me conceptually, but (from I've read) I guess there is enough there to plausible see him as what a version of Duke in a more realistic Gotham might have grown into under the right circumstances. the character didn't seem bad to me though, just not particularly Duke.