Duke Thomas: The Signal Appreciation 2020

[Restingvoice]

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...95268377157632

Bryan says Duke will have a bigger role in "season 2" of batman and the outsiders "if the book goes on." I'm kinda surprised he wouldn't know right now what the future of the book is, since Tynion already said they have plans for Duke in the future just last week.

Sounds like it's not the same plan, and Tynion's plan is the priority since he's the lead Batman writer

[sifighter]

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...95268377157632

Bryan says Duke will have a bigger role in "season 2" of batman and the outsiders "if the book goes on." I'm kinda surprised he wouldn't know right now what the future of the book is, since Tynion already said they have plans for Duke in the future just last week.

I mean maybe Hill just isn’t aware what the overall plan is for next year post Death Metal. It’s supposed to be some big continuity reestablishment/“anti-crisis” with no doubt some big relaunch with new #1’s with some of the current ongoings sounding like they are ending. It’s possible they just haven’t told Hill if there is going to be any place for the Outsiders afterwards.

For all we know, they plan on giving Black Lightning a new solo ongoing or rebooting the outsiders to match a more classic lineup or heck even something new for Duke (it could happen). I’m sure we will find out in the months to come.

[Korath]

Duke is mentionned here :https://www.cbr.com/batman-new-outsiders-dangerous/

Regarding Hill's command, DC better let him stay on Outsiders long enough for him to come to Duke's time to shine ! Damn it !

[skyvolt2000]

Sounds like it's not the same plan, and Tynion's plan is the priority since he's the lead Batman writer

How about they stop with the lip service and actually DO IT.

We keep hearing this mess and don't see the results.

[lemonpeace]

Sounds like it's not the same plan, and Tynion's plan is the priority since he's the lead Batman writer

when did Tynion express plans for Duke? you got a source on that?

[Restingvoice]

when did Tynion express plans for Duke? you got a source on that?

No Idea. I'm just replying to DragonPiece.

[DragonPiece]

when did Tynion express plans for Duke? you got a source on that?

Here is the source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi8LEFSCVVc&t=5140s

I can't tell you a exact time, but someone asked if he had plans for harper and duke and he said yes to both, but wouldn't say more. He also mentioned plans for Cass and Stephanie also, which makes me think we may be getting a bat family book or Bruce working with them more.

[J. D. Guy]

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...95268377157632

Bryan says Duke will have a bigger role in "season 2" of batman and the outsiders "if the book goes on." I'm kinda surprised he wouldn't know right now what the future of the book is, since Tynion already said they have plans for Duke in the future just last week.

Which implies that whatever Tynion was referring to, it'll be separate from The Outsiders, regardless of whether it continues or not.

[lemonpeace]

so I was sitting, being frustrated with comics and kinda just meditating on this general disappointment with the medium i have when looking at Duke and characters like Duke, and it reminded me about something Bryan Hill said about how we should take our frustrations with fandom stuff and put it toward creating instead of just sitting with our frustration. So, since I got some time on my hands, I went "**** it" and decided to manifest my destiny as a full on Duke Thomas shill; so I made a Duke-centric fandom wiki.

Iunno if Duke has enough content and connections to other stuff in the DC universe to make a small wiki, but I think he does so we'll see. I'm about 2 days in and it's super early stages but I got a couple pages and I think it's coming together nicely. if anyone is interested in checking it out, maybe even helping out (because I have not a slight clue what I'm actually doing) just DM me. I've been having a lot of fun with this thing, and while it's kinda highlighting the wasted potential of Duke for me, it's still fun picking through his stories and making the connections. I even made a logo! LOL

[J. D. Guy]

so I was sitting, being frustrated with comics and kinda just meditating on this general disappointment with the medium i have when looking at Duke and characters like Duke, and it reminded me about something Bryan Hill said about how we should take our frustrations with fandom stuff and put it toward creating instead of just sitting with our frustration. So, since I got some time on my hands, I went "**** it" and decided to manifest my destiny as a full on Duke Thomas shill; so I made a Duke-centric fandom wiki.

Iunno if Duke has enough content and connections to other stuff in the DC universe to make a small wiki, but I think he does so we'll see. I'm about 2 days in and it's super early stages but I got a couple pages and I think it's coming together nicely. if anyone is interested in checking it out, maybe even helping out (because I have not a slight clue what I'm actually doing) just DM me. I've been having a lot of fun with this thing, and while it's kinda highlighting the wasted potential of Duke for me, it's still fun picking through his stories and making the connections. I even made a logo! LOL

Oh snap! That's pretty awesome! I recall the frustrations you had when trying to update Duke's page on the DC Fandom Wikia, 'cause of all the gatekeeping. Making one for Duke is a nice breath of fresh air from that.

I'm not on a laptop right now, but I'll be starting my new one soon. I'd love to give it a look-see when I do. Not sure what I could contribute that'd be worth anything, but I can give that a try as well (even if it's just proofreading). It's always best to document when things are fresh in mind, but I guess that makes for nicely convenient reason to re-read Duke's tenure.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I started writing fanfiction to practice prose as I wanted to be a screenwriter in college. Anyone know of any good Duke centered fanfiction?

EDIT- I read Hill's run and thought it was decent. Duke's arc is a continuation of his arc in Detective comics. Its not the best but its not the worst that could happen. His new powers are fine but that might lead him to feel like he's punching above the Batfamily limits. Granted in the mini, his eyesight powers made it feel like he was bringing a knife to a rocket fight so this makes him feel more prepared.

Lemonpeace, is there something specific you wanted to ask about Hill's take?

[lemonpeace]

I started writing fanfiction to practice prose as I wanted to be a screenwriter in college. Anyone know of any good Duke centered fanfiction?

EDIT- I read Hill's run and thought it was decent. Duke's arc is a continuation of his arc in Detective comics. Its not the best but its not the worst that could happen. His new powers are fine but that might lead him to feel like he's punching above the Batfamily limits. Granted in the mini, his eyesight powers made it feel like he was bringing a knife to a rocket fight so this makes him feel more prepared.

Lemonpeace, is there something specific you wanted to ask about Hill's take?

EDIT: this is a long one. I didn't expect it to be but it is what it is. prepare for a rant.

not really honestly, my biggest question about the story is why change his powers in such a way when the symbology of it is essential to not only Duke's identity as a hero and a character, but also to the very costume he wears? my problems with the effectiveness of the costume aside. it's especially perplexing when those powers are SO new and ill-defined, why change it to a less interesting and less defined ability? I understand Duke is supposed to be continuing his "growth" from the Detective run but it feels like he's hustling backwards. Duke's been fighting crime for at least 2 years at this point, mostly independent, but it tends to feel like he's a completely different person who's newer than he is and doesn't know what he's doing. he's had this big traumatic experience with Karma, so much so that in issue #4 we dedicated an entire issue to how he had to come to terms with his trauma, only for him to not only not be the one to fight him but for Karma to be killed off-screen. where is the pay off in that? I do think Hill is a good writer but his pacing is approaching infuriation and it feels like since issue #4 we keep burning pages on empty scenes talking about the same things with Duke when we could be answering questions. like, are his powers permanently changed? why did they NEED to be changed? what do these new powers even do besides move shadows around spookily? if he had at least been answering these things I wouldn't be as frustrated (even though the Karma thing still would piss me off because that was bullshit). but leaving these things hanging while Duke and Cass every other issue say "man these shadow powers sure are dangerous and new and we don't know what they can do" and it's like.....are they dangerous? we don't know because we never. see. what. they do. beyond. spooky. shadow puppets! I mean he read Duke's book, I'm assuming he spoke to Snyder, so he knows about Duke's connection to the Immortals and he should know that the al Ghuls know about Duke's connection to the Immortals, and he chose Ras al Ghul as their villain - why not explore that? dunk him in the Lazarus Pit or kidnap Duke for ransom as a slight against Gnomon, something. I don't mean to rant but this just frustrates me because I really want to love this book. i am a fan of Bryan Hill's works, this is the first physical series i collected, it has a diverse creative team behind it, and it has an entirely PoC cast (I don't count Batman) full of so many amazing characters that I really enjoy reading. plus it has my favorite character [Duke]! and for it to do so limply by him while every other character is more or less true to their character and having all these badass moments doesn't sit right with me.

uhmmm so yeah....sorry for the rant, got a little carried away. it's just been so conflicting so me. the story is at least good but I feel his take on Duke has been the weakest point to me and it exposes flaws in his run holistically.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

EDIT: this is a long one. I didn't expect it to be but it is what it is. prepare for a rant.

not really honestly, my biggest question about the story is why change his powers in such a way when the symbology of it is essential to not only Duke's identity as a hero and a character, but also to the very costume he wears? my problems with the effectiveness of the costume aside. it's especially perplexing when those powers are SO new and ill-defined, why change it to a less interesting and less defined ability? I understand Duke is supposed to be continuing his "growth" from the Detective run but it feels like he's hustling backwards. Duke's been fighting crime for at least 2 years at this point, mostly independent, but it tends to feel like he's a completely different person who's newer than he is and doesn't know what he's doing. he's had this big traumatic experience with Karma, so much so that in issue #4 we dedicated an entire issue to how he had to come to terms with his trauma, only for him to not only not be the one to fight him but for Karma to be killed off-screen. where is the pay off in that? I do think Hill is a good writer but his pacing is approaching infuriation and it feels like since issue #4 we keep burning pages on empty scenes talking about the same things with Duke when we could be answering questions. like, are his powers permanently changed? why did they NEED to be changed? what do these new powers even do besides move shadows around spookily? if he had at least been answering these things I wouldn't be as frustrated (even though the Karma thing still would piss me off because that was bullshit). but leaving these things hanging while Duke and Cass every other issue say "man these shadow powers sure are dangerous and new and we don't know what they can do" and it's like.....are they dangerous? we don't know because we never. see. what. they do. beyond. spooky. shadow puppets! I mean he read Duke's book, I'm assuming he spoke to Snyder, so he knows about Duke's connection to the Immortals and he should know that the al Ghuls know about Duke's connection to the Immortals, and he chose Ras al Ghul as their villain - why not explore that? dunk him in the Lazarus Pit or kidnap Duke for ransom as a slight against Gnomon, something. I don't mean to rant but this just frustrates me because I really want to love this book. i am a fan of Bryan Hill's works, this is the first physical series i collected, it has a diverse creative team behind it, and it has an entirely PoC cast (I don't count Batman) full of so many amazing characters that I really enjoy reading. plus it has my favorite character [Duke]! and for it to do so limply by him while every other character is more or less true to their character and having all these badass moments doesn't sit right with me.

uhmmm so yeah....sorry for the rant, got a little carried away. it's just been so conflicting so me. the story is at least good but I feel his take on Duke has been the weakest point to me and it exposes flaws in his run holistically.

Nah it's fine.

I thought adding the Shadow powers was to symbolize Duke having to accept his inner darkness. Hill's run on Outsiders seems to have a recurring theme of not falling into metaphorical darkness- hence why Katana warns Jefferson over giving into his anger over his friends death. Cass has something similar with her reluctance to accept her mom returning in her life.

Killing Karma was to rob Duke of his carthasis and a way to ratchet up the tension. His death along with Ishmael and Kaliber did feel wasted. My preferred version is Duke choosing not fight Karma because there is a greater good that needs him (like saving someone etc). He pushes his trauma aside for a greater good is a way to establish his character and to push Ras al ghul to try new methods to corrupt him. Hence why Ra's kills Karma- because he outlived his usefulness.

I don't mind the Karma stuff as much, I just wish it was covered in a Duke solo than in a team-up book. It reminded me of some recent Daredevil arcs i read and there's potential there for it.

I agree about the lack of followthrough with Gnonom.

[lemonpeace]

Nah it's fine.

I thought adding the Shadow powers was to symbolize Duke having to accept his inner darkness. Hill's run on Outsiders seems to have a recurring theme of not falling into metaphorical darkness- hence why Katana warns Jefferson over giving into his anger over his friends death. Cass has something similar with her reluctance to accept her mom returning in her life.

Killing Karma was to rob Duke of his carthasis and a way to ratchet up the tension. His death along with Ishmael and Kaliber did feel wasted. My preferred version is Duke choosing not fight Karma because there is a greater good that needs him (like saving someone etc). He pushes his trauma aside for a greater good is a way to establish his character and to push Ras al ghul to try new methods to corrupt him. Hence why Ra's kills Karma- because he outlived his usefulness.

I don't mind the Karma stuff as much, I just wish it was covered in a Duke solo than in a team-up book. It reminded me of some recent Daredevil arcs i read and there's potential there for it.

I agree about the lack of followthrough with Gnonom.

I'm a general story nerd, comics are just the most recent notch in my belt, I can appreciate symbolism but symbolism only works if it's followed through to it's conceptual conclusion or fulfills it's narrative role. these shadows do not do that. Hill very well could be trying to use the shadow power as symbology for Duke's "inner-darkness" but 1.) why? that's completely antithetical to what Duke stands for in the Batfamily and 2.) it's not communicated in the text. these have no tangible effect on Duke, his enemies, his allies, or anything. so what is it that he's communicating about this inner darkness? nothing. There is a lot of lip service to the idea of "not crossing the line" in Hill's run but none of the characters ever do anything that comes close besides talking about it. the character that does cross a line (Kaliber) faces no real consequence for it or reasoning beyond "well he's just a bad guy" and then dies. not because he crossed the line but because the big bad needed a villain moment.

Duke before the powers change and after the powers change is the same inconsequential character to the book. we're never given a reason why Duke should accept or reject this inner darkness, or what that would mean for him, or how Duke is doing anything actively different. He just went "these new powers sure are different" and then with every character or villain they encounter they just allude to how "dangerous" they are and how no one knows what it is; before cass beats the bad guy's ass. the shadows don't do anything to inform the character besides alienating Duke from the few distinct character traits he's allowed to have for seemingly no reason. he's not a fighter (lost every fight), he's not a leader ("too new" and traumatized), he's never detecting, and he doesn't even have his unique abilities that connect him to his heritage, so who is this man? because i came here for Duke and this isn't him.

If Black Lightning pulled up for 6 issues not using his powers and losing fights, then popped out with gravity powers at issue 7, and for 7 issue these new powers are ill-defined and have no effect on anything, would that be cool? no because that's not his character, those aren't his powers, and if he's useless with or without them then why change something so fundamental. That's what is annoying me. With every other character Hill can more or less understand their personality and play to their strengths, but with Duke either what he's planning is taking too long OR it was all an afterthought, he didn't have a real plan and doesn't get the character.

Again, this wouldn't frustrate me so much if at least he got to fight his own battles, win something for himself, affect the plot, or at least properly demonstrate what these changes actually do. but the only time Duke matters to the plot is when he needs to be victimized and I'm tired. it's too early in Duke's career for us to be deconstructing him because his hero identity isn't fully established and even Hill doesn't know how long DC's gonna give him. he should be using Duke's time affirming and cementing who he is developing into, not regressing and stripping away the fundamentals of his character to "build him back". deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction is not in and of itself compelling. This is Duke's first featured role in a title since his mini, he had his light powers showcased for like 6 in total before this, and in those 6 we've seen more intrigue and utility than whatever he has now. He's not Batman, or Nightwing, or Damian Wayne who can afford a drawn-out constructive direction because they'll have umpteen more appearances to get fleshed out and course-corrected next week; we've seen what happens when you're Luke, or David, or Onyx, or Michael Lane, or Orpheus.

but hey, like i said, I do think Hill is a really solid writer and i do think the title is pretty good (if poorly-paced), so maybe he'll finally bring it all together and do something with Duke that'll win me over. right now, i don't know if that's likely but i really REALLY want it to be true. I'm tired of being frustrated with this book.

[J. D. Guy]

It is strange, the place that Karma resides in.

Like, emphatically, Karma is essentially part of Duke's/The Signal's rogues gallery. And yet he's not. Bryan Hill ended up making someone who effected Duke on such a personal level. Karma became such an important element to Duke/The Signal. But because Karma was designed to be against Batman and The Signal was just collateral from that, a casualty to reinforce Karma's assertions about Batman, The Signal's relationship with Karma is one-sided on the former's part. And that is a shame. It's a missed opportunity, especially with how much it's eclipsed Duke's life narratively for the last year and a half+.

In a vacuum, that would have been a really good storyline to explore Duke's character through. Of course, both design and implementation/execution would have needed to be in service to that end. Even if Duke was collateral at first and even if Karma did start off fixated on Batman, there should have been a dynamic switch that placed their respective focus squarely on each other. The Signal has animosity against Karma for the unwanted dishevel in his new life that he was just beginning to find his groove in that Karma callously caused. Karma resents The Signal for being the antithetical personification of what he hates, who survived what Karma intended to be a demonstration against someone else. The Signal being alive and living proves Karma wrong and haunts Karma's mind like a specter. And the focus is now squarely between The Signal and Karma. It didn't start out that way -- and not starting out that way was fine -- but that is how it should have ended up.

Instead, Duke was a casualty of the newcomer Karma who happened to live where other similar casualties would have died. But Duke didn't die. He did outlive his role in Karma's narrative, however. And so attention is paid to an aftermath of a survivor, but in a way that implies he wasn't intended to survive. We get potentially good introspection that doesn't feel like it's going anywhere or being used to its potential.

We end up with a new villain who consequently "becomes" part of The Signal's rogues gallery, yet who's connection and dynamic chemistry is one-sided on Duke's part, which never evolves beyond that.