Kurt Wagner: Nightcrawler Appreciation 2020

[Su_Whisterfield]

My heartbreak for Kurt as a character is that he is extremely likable but he has not been a very interesting character in a very long time. He will get interesting and powerful moments like the line to Wolverine before teleporting them to their deaths but he has not had any rich character development in decades. I think writers like Kurt but do not find him interesting enough to dive into his character. As a result my favorite X-Man barely get used in any X-Men stories.

It would be nice to see it explored again, but not be the end all be all of his character, as others have said there are other things that make Kurt amazing. I do think that too many writers only see him as the moral center as as Su_Whisterfield said, Hickman is not using him as such, which is a shame because he should be the first questioning a lot of this. Hell he should probably be the one that SHOULD help start the opposition party to the QC, seeing that he would be, as pointed out, someone who would probably dislike the idea of working with Shaw, Apokolips and especially Sinister. If anything his religious standpoint should be used as a means of maybe getting Charles to question why he is doing this, and if not Charles then Eric appealing to his own past. Also as pointed out, he would typically not be okay with the Russian Mutants walk of shame, nor would he be okay with the Hellions. If anything he would be working to undermine Shaw, Sinister and maybe Apokolips by spying on them. There is no way he would just sit back and allow for half of the stuff happening on Krakoa to happen at all.

I would think that with X of Swords, Kurt would have been a shoe in for having one. He's a fencer and an athlete, so I would think that he would have the spirit, given his swashbuckling skills to be one of the Swords based on his personality alone. I mean, heck, Kurt if this was a manga would have been a lead protagonist. I think did hinder him in this sense as outside of "Creating the religion" Hickman can't see him as anything but the "Christ" figure that he's probably going to use to "Die for the sins of the mutants" and then have his religion become corrupted to the point where he's shunned by his fellow Mutants, like how Beast treated the Russian mutants. As I said way to many writers see him as a one note, and there is a big difference between being a Catholic and a Evangelical.

I'd like to see Kurt being the leader of his own team at some point, working with a set of mutants that are unique like he is. Has anyone given him his own teams?

Not going to argue with either of these analyses.

Kurt is important to the franchise.
He was the first highly visibly mutated character to get ‘A’ list status.
His fanbase is varied and wide and a lot of those fans like him because he’s different, because he doesn’t fit.
Not just because he’s a Christian, or a circus performer, not just because he’s a witty swashbuckler, most importantly, not because he’s the ‘soul’ of the group, whatever that means.

They like Kurt because he is a symbol for those fans who don’t fit, who know what it’s like not to be accepted because you look different, because you don’t fit the norm. They project their own experiences of rejection and isolation onto him (because they’re queer, or trans, or obese, or thin, or too tall, too short, the wrong colour or whatever) and they see in him a character who doesn’t let others define him, limit him. A character who rises above the abuse, the hate, who accepts people a he finds them and who is liked and popular, wanted and accepted by his found family.
He’s an important symbol and I find it irritating that the books writers don’t realise this more often.

The last time we saw it fully realised was the Domino annual where he Neena were running a help group for mutants, think it was Kelly Thompson writing?

[Darkspellmaster]

Not going to argue with either of these analyses.

Kurt is important to the franchise.
He was the first highly visibly mutated character to get ‘A’ list status.
His fanbase is varied and wide and a lot of those fans like him because he’s different, because he doesn’t fit.
Not just because he’s a Christian, or a circus performer, not just because he’s a witty swashbuckler, most importantly, not because he’s the ‘soul’ of the group, whatever that means.

They like Kurt because he is a symbol for those fans who don’t fit, who know what it’s like not to be accepted because you look different, because you don’t fit the norm. They project their own experiences of rejection and isolation onto him (because they’re queer, or trans, or obese, or thin, or too tall, too short, the wrong colour or whatever) and they see in him a character who doesn’t let others define him, limit him. A character who rises above the abuse, the hate, who accepts people a he finds them and who is liked and popular, wanted and accepted by his found family.
He’s an important symbol and I find it irritating that the books writers don’t realise this more often.

The last time we saw it fully realised was the Domino annual where he Neena were running a help group for mutants, think it was Kelly Thompson writing?

This is a great argument about him. He was designed to be different, to physically show how different mutants can look. That whole "Soul" of the group is so weird. Like, yes, everyone loves him in the group, and yes I would say he's the "heart" of the team the same way kitty, Jubilee, and Jean, and even someone like Cannonball is, in that they are a good person with a strong moral compass and loves and cares about others because that's how he is, but the soul is so weird.
People like Kurt because he was a good person. He stood up for what he believed in, even when he was in the dumps, and held true to the idea that people are ultimately good despite their hate. He comes off as someone you would genuinely want to be friends with! (Is it any wonder why Logan is so close to him as a friend?)

That's a huge thing, he is part of a found family, and it's something I think a lot of people resonate with. I think you're right about Kelly writing that one. Odd that it's so hard for writers to get this about him even though it's shown in so many of his older appearances and even on the tv show and movies.

[Havok83]

Not going to argue with either of these analyses.

Kurt is important to the franchise.
He was the first highly visibly mutated character to get ‘A’ list status.
His fanbase is varied and wide and a lot of those fans like him because he’s different, because he doesn’t fit.
Not just because he’s a Christian, or a circus performer, not just because he’s a witty swashbuckler, most importantly, not because he’s the ‘soul’ of the group, whatever that means.

They like Kurt because he is a symbol for those fans who don’t fit, who know what it’s like not to be accepted because you look different, because you don’t fit the norm. They project their own experiences of rejection and isolation onto him (because they’re queer, or trans, or obese, or thin, or too tall, too short, the wrong colour or whatever) and they see in him a character who doesn’t let others define him, limit him. A character who rises above the abuse, the hate, who accepts people a he finds them and who is liked and popular, wanted and accepted by his found family.
He’s an important symbol and I find it irritating that the books writers don’t realise this more often.

The last time we saw it fully realised was the Domino annual where he Neena were running a help group for mutants, think it was Kelly Thompson writing?

No he wasnt. Beast beat him to that

Looking back at Kurt, I dont think he's been important to the X-men or done anything noteworthy since they brought him back from the dead years ago. He's been featured in many runs but mostly just there, not really factoring into the plot and had he never returned, I dont think much would have changed. The current Hickman era hasnt changed that. He is in desperate need of attention and an actual character arc because there has been very little in the way of any development with him. The last significant story beat done with him was his sacrifice in Second Coming which was like 10 years ago. Marvel need to do better

[Su_Whisterfield]

This is a great argument about him. He was designed to be different, to physically show how different mutants can look. That whole "Soul" of the group is so weird. Like, yes, everyone loves him in the group, and yes I would say he's the "heart" of the team the same way kitty, Jubilee, and Jean, and even someone like Cannonball is, in that they are a good person with a strong moral compass and loves and cares about others because that's how he is, but the soul is so weird.
People like Kurt because he was a good person. He stood up for what he believed in, even when he was in the dumps, and held true to the idea that people are ultimately good despite their hate. He comes off as someone you would genuinely want to be friends with! (Is it any wonder why Logan is so close to him as a friend?)

That's a huge thing, he is part of a found family, and it's something I think a lot of people resonate with. I think you're right about Kelly writing that one. Odd that it's so hard for writers to get this about him even though it's shown in so many of his older appearances and even on the tv show and movies.

You need a balanced team, in powers but also in personality, you know that yourself if you’ve ever worked on a team, loud outgoing alphas have their uses, but sometimes you need a quieter, solid, reliable back up too.

I also think that Kurt appeals to fans who aren’t bothered by him not being the strongest, the fastest, the most powerful. He’s not even the best teleporter available. He’s not on teams because he’s the best at what he does, he’s an asset because he’s reliable, trustworthy, experienced and clever.

And Kurt being friends with Logan (Ororo, Jean, anyone) is catnip for me. I just love it.

[Su_Whisterfield]

No he wasnt. Beast beat him to that

Looking back at Kurt, I dont think he's been important to the X-men or done anything noteworthy since they brought him back from the dead years ago. He's been featured in many runs but mostly just there, not really factoring into the plot and had he never returned, I dont think much would have changed. The current Hickman era hasnt changed that. He is in desperate need of attention and an actual character arc because there has been very little in the way of any development with him. The last significant story beat done with him was his sacrifice in Second Coming which was like 10 years ago. Marvel need to do better

He was the first on team X-Man, didn’t Hank get blue and furry while an Avenger? I haven’t re-read the early Uncanny’s for a while.

But I agree that he’s not done anything significant since his resurrection, which, given how important I think he is to the franchise, is criminal. I had high hopes for Hickman but I think he’s just going to be relegated to Religion Guy again.

[Havok83]

He was the first on team X-Man, didn’t Hank get blue and furry while an Avenger? I haven’t re-read the early Uncanny’s for a while.

But I agree that he’s not done anything significant since his resurrection, which, given how important I think he is to the franchise, is criminal. I had high hopes for Hickman but I think he’s just going to be relegated to Religion Guy again.

Beast was already an Avenger, blue and furry by the time Kurt was created. Thats why he wasnt in Giant Size X-men. Kurt most definitely wasnt an A-lister when he was created but Beast was on the A-list team at a time in Marvel when the Avengers were the hot property

[From The Shadows]

No he wasnt. Beast beat him to that.

When did Beast go blue? Was it just as he joined the Avengers? Even with his "human" appearance with the large hands and feet I remember him playing football in school. He seemed to do fine. I've always wondered. I'm not as well versed in the 05's earlier years.

Beast was already an Avenger, blue and furry by the time Kurt was created. Thats why he wasnt in Giant Size X-men. Kurt most definitely wasnt an A-lister when he was created but Beast was on the A-list team at a time in Marvel when the Avengers were the hot property

Duuuuh, never mind... Didn't read the whole thread.

[From The Shadows]

All this talk about "the first." Kurt was the first mutant presented born with his physical mutation. His cute blue bundle self.

It would be nice to see it explored again, but not be the end all be all of his character, as others have said there are other things that make Kurt amazing. I do think that too many writers only see him as the moral center as as Su_Whisterfield said, Hickman is not using him as such, which is a shame because he should be the first questioning a lot of this. Hell he should probably be the one that SHOULD help start the opposition party to the QC, seeing that he would be, as pointed out, someone who would probably dislike the idea of working with Shaw, Apokolips and especially Sinister. If anything his religious standpoint should be used as a means of maybe getting Charles to question why he is doing this, and if not Charles then Eric appealing to his own past. Also as pointed out, he would typically not be okay with the Russian Mutants walk of shame, nor would he be okay with the Hellions. If anything he would be working to undermine Shaw, Sinister and maybe Apokolips by spying on them. There is no way he would just sit back and allow for half of the stuff happening on Krakoa to happen at all.

I would think that with X of Swords, Kurt would have been a shoe in for having one. He's a fencer and an athlete, so I would think that he would have the spirit, given his swashbuckling skills to be one of the Swords based on his personality alone. I mean, heck, Kurt if this was a manga would have been a lead protagonist. I think did hinder him in this sense as outside of "Creating the religion" Hickman can't see him as anything but the "Christ" figure that he's probably going to use to "Die for the sins of the mutants" and then have his religion become corrupted to the point where he's shunned by his fellow Mutants, like how Beast treated the Russian mutants. As I said way to many writers see him as a one note, and there is a big difference between being a Catholic and a Evangelical.

I'd like to see Kurt being the leader of his own team at some point, working with a set of mutants that are unique like he is. Has anyone given him his own teams?

He was trained by this guy.

[Havok83]

When did Beast go blue? Was it just as he joined the Avengers? Even with his "human" appearance with the large hands and feet I remember him playing football in school. He seemed to do fine. I've always wondered. I'm not as well versed in the 05's earlier years.



Duuuuh, never mind... Didn't read the whole thread.

All this talk about "the first." Kurt was the first mutant presented born with his physical mutation. His cute blue bundle self.





He was trained by this guy.

Not to take anything away from Kurt but it was still Beast. He was born with unusually large hands and feet. He grew into it but as a baby it stood out as abnormal. As for your question, he went blue in the time that the original series went into reprints. He first went gray and furry before becoming blue just before he joined the Avengers

[Su_Whisterfield]

Not to take anything away from Kurt but it was still Beast. He was born with unusually large hands and feet. He grew into it but as a baby it stood out as abnormal. As for your question, he went blue in the time that the original series went into reprints. He first went gray and furry before becoming blue just before he joined the Avengers

Just to make you happy, I’ll amend it.

Kurt is important to the franchise.
He was the second mutant, in the flagship title Uncanny X-Men, who weren’t A-listers at the time, to be highly visibly mutated in a negative way after Hank who wasn’t an X-Man at the time but came first but it’s important that I note that, despite it adding noting material to the conversation.
His fanbase is varied and wide and a lot of those fans like him because he’s different, because he doesn’t fit.

[Diablo]

question Kurt fans. would you like the religious aspect of his character to be further explored or would you rather him deviate from that aspect of his character ? do you think this religious aspects can inhibit the types of stories he can be effective in?

I'm not a huge fan of his religious side. Dear Kitty Pryde is a Jew but she lives A LOT of adventures without her beliefs being exposed. What I'd like to see again is the Kurt Wagner from the Dave Cockrum or Alan Davis era : the fun, clever and swashbuckling character we all truly miss !! Every month I'm looking at X-Men comics for that story to come. Jason Aaron and Ed Mc Guinness began an interesting take on the character, bringing him to his glorious roots. It's been almost seven years, and inbetween, we got almost nothing... The Alan Davis one-shot was cool. But not about Kurt at all.

[Havok83]

He was one of the X-men chosen for the King in Black crossover today. He doesnt do anything unfortunately

[Su_Whisterfield]

I'm not a huge fan of his religious side. Dear Kitty Pryde is a Jew but she lives A LOT of adventures without her beliefs being exposed. What I'd like to see again is the Kurt Wagner from the Dave Cockrum or Alan Davis era : the fun, clever and swashbuckling character we all truly miss !! Every month I'm looking at X-Men comics for that story to come. Jason Aaron and Ed Mc Guinness began an interesting take on the character, bringing him to his glorious roots. It's been almost seven years, and inbetween, we got almost nothing... The Alan Davis one-shot was cool. But not about Kurt at all.

Yes, exactly my preference would for Kurt’s Catholicism to be no more a focus than Kitty’s (or anyone else’s) religion, it’s just not a defining characteristic.

He was one of the X-men chosen for the King in Black crossover today. He doesnt do anything unfortunately

Thanks for the heads up, can’t say I’m surprised, will save my money l

Bringing up Hank has got me thinking, has Beast been chased by mobs? I can’t remember but I’m pretty sure he has. If he hasn’t, why does Kurt get the shittier treatment? They both strange looking, particularly when Hank’s in full cat-beast mode. He’s considerably bigger and bulkier than Kurt, he should be more threatening than he is. Of course, it’s not helped by modern artists making Kurt so handsome, sometimes pretty, I’m a sucker for ‘pretty Kurt’ as much as the next red blooded person, but he shouldn’t lose the strangeness too.

[Havok83]

Thanks for the heads up, can’t say I’m surprised, will save my money l

Bringing up Hank has got me thinking, has Beast been chased by mobs? I can’t remember but I’m pretty sure he has. If he hasn’t, why does Kurt get the shittier treatment? They both strange looking, particularly when Hank’s in full cat-beast mode. He’s considerably bigger and bulkier than Kurt, he should be more threatening than he is. Of course, it’s not helped by modern artists making Kurt so handsome, sometimes pretty, I’m a sucker for ‘pretty Kurt’ as much as the next red blooded person, but he shouldn’t lose the strangeness too.

Kurt got chased by a mob in a tiny village in Germany. Thats more a mentality of that isolated community as its not really a common occurrence. He being chased by a mob itself seemed outdated like something you'd find in the 1800s. Hank grew up and has primarily be in the US, which is far more modern and progressive. While he's faced his own level of prejudice, Beast was also a longtime member of the Avengers which has shielded him and afforded him a level of public admiration that most mutants dont get

[Su_Whisterfield]

Kurt got chased by a mob in a tiny village in Germany. Thats more a mentality of that isolated community as its not really a common occurrence. He being chased by a mob itself seemed outdated like something you'd find in the 1800s. Hank grew up and has primarily be in the US, which is far more modern and progressive. While he's faced his own level of prejudice, Beast was also a longtime member of the Avengers which has shielded him and afforded him a level of public admiration that most mutants dont get

The German mob is not the only time Kurt’s been harassed, it was a New York mob which chased and battered him leading to this cover.
2FB1BB13-0414-405B-A734-9235FF7906E5.jpg