Kurt Wagner: Nightcrawler Appreciation 2020

[cinnaminion]

It's interesting. At the time, when Logan thinks that Kurt's not doing half bad and that he's the best they've got without Cyke or Storm, he also thinks something like "Kitty's got potential but she's too young." And then there's Rogue, who's also gone on to lead as a senior X-man in a similar capacity to Kurt but not the same as Storm or Cyclops. If we simultaneously lost all the current natural leaders of the X-men like Storm and Cyke - and let's get rid of Kitty and Wolverine too, for good measure, since they've had their leadership stints recently - I wonder who would fill that roll? (Consider we're talking an extended period of time, not just someone keeping things together till the real leaders get back.) If it were Kurt, even though he's grown so much, I think that level of pressure would still be a factor. Maybe he'd be better at handling it. But it might be Rogue. Or someone totally unexpected. (If Jean's around, it would 100% be her, though. Kind of want to off her too with Cyke and the others, mwahaha. Just for the sake of argument.)

But Nightcrawler as a senior X-man but not a main leader is the way I prefer things. That interview is right, in my case, that Nightcrawler fans want to see him more as a friend than a boss. It's just that leaders make waves, pivotal things happen as a result of their decisions, so they get handled with care, and the supporters can get overlooked. Think of every time Kurt's said, "Storm, are you sure about this?" and she said "Leave me alone," and he said "oookay" and backed off. It's good to know he has his own opinions but 9 times out of 10 that's the end of the interaction, and it just comes off a bit annoying, like don't question the leader if you have no better ideas... I liked in Civil War II when he split from Storm and joined the other side. I was meh on his logic about it and would rather see that more developed, but I did like that the writers had him do something like that. Now and then it's useful. Wasn't used to best effect but still.

[Su_Whisterfield]

It's interesting. At the time, when Logan thinks that Kurt's not doing half bad and that he's the best they've got without Cyke or Storm, he also thinks something like "Kitty's got potential but she's too young." And then there's Rogue, who's also gone on to lead as a senior X-man in a similar capacity to Kurt but not the same as Storm or Cyclops. If we simultaneously lost all the current natural leaders of the X-men like Storm and Cyke - and let's get rid of Kitty and Wolverine too, for good measure, since they've had their leadership stints recently - I wonder who would fill that roll? (Consider we're talking an extended period of time, not just someone keeping things together till the real leaders get back.) If it were Kurt, even though he's grown so much, I think that level of pressure would still be a factor. Maybe he'd be better at handling it. But it might be Rogue. Or someone totally unexpected. (If Jean's around, it would 100% be her, though. Kind of want to off her too with Cyke and the others, mwahaha. Just for the sake of argument.)

But Nightcrawler as a senior X-man but not a main leader is the way I prefer things. That interview is right, in my case, that Nightcrawler fans want to see him more as a friend than a boss. It's just that leaders make waves, pivotal things happen as a result of their decisions, so they get handled with care, and the supporters can get overlooked. Think of every time Kurt's said, "Storm, are you sure about this?" and she said "Leave me alone," and he said "oookay" and backed off. It's good to know he has his own opinions but 9 times out of 10 that's the end of the interaction, and it just comes off a bit annoying, like don't question the leader if you have no better ideas... I liked in Civil War II when he split from Storm and joined the other side. I was meh on his logic about it and would rather see that more developed, but I did like that the writers had him do something like that. Now and then it's useful. Wasn't used to best effect but still.

It seems as though all the senior team members have been leaders at some point or another, but it really doesn’t suit some personalities. Work in and office for thirty years and you’ll see this over and over again; people take the promotion, for various reasons, sometimes selfish, sometimes altruistic, and just can’t do the job (it even has a name, The Peter Principal) or don’t enjoy doing the job. I had a boss brilliant at building buildings, promoted to regional MD and he was dreadful, he was bad at the people side of it, where as Kurt is good at the people side of things.
And you can be a good leader but just not enjoy it, it’s a difficult and stressful position to be in, given his personality, I could see Kurt worrying over his decisions, unnecessarily, but nonetheless,,stressful.
And there are different sorts of leaders, which is why I like the Council role for Kurt, it’s a much better fit than team leader.

[From The Shadows]

I'm calling this Kurt Wagner: The Once Reluctant Leader (which is actually a term).

Well I just decided to post parts of the interview here to show what I was responding to in words. Completely different post from the one in the other thread but thought that since this is to do with NC it should be addressed in here as well.

Well I wasnt much focused on whether Kurt enjoyed being a leader actually. Since the early X-Men days it was obvious Kurt didn't think that it was a role he imagined himself in. RR provided the scans and there is Wolvy himself scoffing at the idea of himself being the X-Mens leader, very different from his days leading X-Force. This interview sort of ignores interviews by CC and Davis themselves and his character arc that reached fruition with him taking up the mantle in issue 45 of Excalibur. True leadership style than Scotts which has been discussed. This sort of ignores all that outcry thats been going on about him being downgraded to the teams mascot again. You don't have to agree but dont pretend that wasnt a big part of Kurts more vocal fans. Don't deny the one of the two camps just because you only agree with the other please Marvel.

AIPT: Bethany w. Pope (@BethanyWPope) said that Nightcrawler is a character who’s lead a team on occasion, but it never really sticks the way it does for Storm or Cyclops. Why do you think that is?

Jordan: I think that for fans of Nightcrawler–and by that I mean both readers AND creators who like him–that’s typically not what they are coming to that character for.

Is it what I'm looking for when I wan't more NC Actually. No. Not really. I would like to see some new and interesting ideas with Kurt overall as it has already been explored in the past. Don't get me wrong it may be interesting to see Kurt become X-Men leader - a successful one- just for a change instead of the same one forever: Cyclops (and I guess you can add Wolverine). His lack of success in the X-Men but his success in Excalibur? Hum, I think it has a lot to do with the X-Offices inability to let go of Cyclops and peoples inability to see Kurt other than the X-Mens cheerleader. Which is something that has been quite griped about on these forums since Kurt has taken a backseat when CC left in his final run. But count me as one of those supposedly rare fans that rather not see Kurt as just a friend among quite a few who used to post here. Man, I still remember how angry the fans were at Austen for that issue way back when when it was first released, especially here on CBR, with Scott berating Kurt for being a friend and not a leader. They felt like years of development had been flushed down the drain. This was before CBR had appreciation threads and I was under a different user name and we had to voice our complaints souly in the issue threads as they came out or start a whole new topic. Being constantly cheerleader/friend only was why so many users gave up the comics. I've just conversed with some recently. I will add that there are those that prefer Kurt the carefree adventurous confident as well so you won't see them opposing this view of him and thats their right of course. Kurt did get a bit dusty towards the end of Excalibur.

AIPT: Welcome back, Jordan! So, of all the leaders of all the various X-Teams, who is your personal favorite and why?

Jordan: Oh–a “favorite” question that I am not going to answer with “Original Excalibur”! Mostly because I don’t think Excalibur really had a leader. Whenever I see people saying Nightcrawler was the leader of classic Excalibur I am like “He was?” I never got that impression.

I gather this wasn't his favorite question because of people like me since favorite its in quotation marks. Sorry, I guess? I'm one of those odd peeps that liked Kurt as leader of Excalibur and uh, actually thought he was by the stories themselves and not something I conjured up because of wishful thinking especially Alan Davis' solo days and up. But I didn't really see it as an X-Book til Ellis (Maybe a little before). So I really dont count pre those days him being an X-Leader but it seemed more like a Defenders/Avengers team. This comment by Jordan might bring back the Chuck haters out from hiding, lol, but probably not because I think they gave up.

Resources:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nightcrawler

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/nightcrawler/4005-1461/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightcrawler_(comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nightcrawler

https://www.cbr.com/excalibur-most-p...embers-ranked/



At least Hickman is giving him a voice I guess I just wished I liked his writing. *sigh*

Anyway, I want Kurt to go solo into the greater MU or join a team but not Avengers but a whole new team after Kurts story of being a councel member is through! I loved his icons series, despite him being a priest he really didn't refer to his faith all that much. I wouldn't mind seeing Abnett and Lanning have a crack at him again. They wrote him so well in Amanda/Jimaines mini. The wrote mostly Marvel Uk and Marvel cosmic titles but you could tell they knew the character and his potential. Is it wrong to say the X-Men aren't doing it for me anymore?

[cinnaminion]

I differ from you in that I definitely don't want him to leave the X-men/go solo. But otherwise, I think we all feel similarly. I doubt there are any Nightcrawler fans who want him to be "just" a friend. We do like him AS a friend more than a leader, I mean in the heart of his characterization. Everyone wants him to be interesting and involved. 

The interview guy's wrong imo that Kurt was never really Excalibur's leader though. Excalibur was his book in the end.


I mentioned that Austen issue too. I liked that they had a fight - aside from the fact that Kurt was not in his right mind at the time, I also think it's likely that Scott and Kurt would butt heads because of different leadership styles. Not a good vs bad one, just different. But then they never resolved it. The conversation was just left hanging. That's the X-books problem, they do it over and over - introduce some kind of tension and then never touch it again. No closure. Did Bobby ever address saying he wanted Cyclops to die in battle after he killed Xavier? He might have, but I would not be surprised if that's just become "water under the bridge" like everything else. That being said, I LOVE tension, and there could have been a really interesting outcome with character development for both Kurt and Scott. But they never dealt with it, so I understand the fan anger.

The X-books have been quite a dry well for me in recent years - the last Uncanny before Hickman was the most boring thing I've ever read. It made me stop reading until Hickman got his foot pretty well in the door. But in spite of sucking, there were a few Crawler things that I particularly loved:

- Though I didn't like the "I saw some meaningless carnage and I'm crazy now" angle in Extraordinary, I did like seeing Kurt get back on his feet, and make Storm stop coddling him.
- I LOVED Kurt killing Apocalypse. I know it didn't stick, to the point that it basically didn't happen - things getting brushed over like that are another reason why the X-books have been so awful - but I loved how it went down. I'm not into killer!Crawler but it's friggin Apocalypse. And the artistic parallel with him killing Apocalypse and saving Colossus while Illyana lost Sapna in killing the World Eater was fantastic.
- Him starting up the new team with Jean in X-men Red and being her numer one support. It didn't get built up, but it was a thing.
- Disagreeing with Storm and leaving her side, but then fighting for both sides and just doing whatever he wanted in Civil War II
- Kurt starting the support group for mutants with physical mutations with Domino. I wish that had happened years and years ago and always kind of headcanonned that it was a thing. Loved to see it in the books.
- Mini Excalibur reunion and Kurt and Kitty's secret names for ridiculous tactical maneuvers, like driving a plane through a wall. I'm extrapolating that there are others, though, lol
- Giving Old Man Logan that picture of himself, bahaha, it was so unexpected which is what made it gold
- Turned Evil!Nightcrawler going after Sabretooth and especially going after everyone in Germany who hurt him and getting saved by Mystique was fun, although obviously he wasn't in his right mind.
- His Age of X book. I loved it to pieces. Seanan Maguire can have my heart on a platter. Last issue was meh but I was prepared for that because it "had to tie in" with the other books *eye roll*
- And most recently, him and Wolvie go getting themselves inferno'd to save the day. That was dramatic.

And some things I disliked:

- The immortality thing was treated stupidly like what even was the point
- Azazel gets free and... just does whatever and Kurt's like OK cool. what
- He was very boring in Uncanny but so was literally everyone else
- Kurt/Rachel. It was so obviously doomed from the start that watching it implode wasn't even fun.
- Barely any interaction with Storm or Wolvie. At least Wolvie was mostly dead, but Kurt and Storm were on the same team like lmao...
- The stupid "I'm insane now I'm not" thing
- A silly one: wildly changing his appearance for no reason. I have long hair and chin fuzz, now I don't. I have a thick logger beard, now I don't. I shaved my temples, now I don't. I'm wearing chainmail because because, now I'm not. Different looks are all well and good but there were just sooo many in such a short period... I thought he was having an identity crisis.
- I don't like bamfs. There, I said it.


Here's to hoping the 2020s will hold good things for Kurt and the X-books in general.

[Su_Whisterfield]

I differ from you in that I definitely don't want him to leave the X-men/go solo. But otherwise, I think we all feel similarly. I doubt there are any Nightcrawler fans who want him to be "just" a friend. We do like him AS a friend more than a leader, I mean in the heart of his characterization. Everyone wants him to be interesting and involved. 

The interview guy's wrong imo that Kurt was never really Excalibur's leader though. Excalibur was his book in the end.


I mentioned that Austen issue too. I liked that they had a fight - aside from the fact that Kurt was not in his right mind at the time, I also think it's likely that Scott and Kurt would butt heads because of different leadership styles. Not a good vs bad one, just different. But then they never resolved it. The conversation was just left hanging. That's the X-books problem, they do it over and over - introduce some kind of tension and then never touch it again. No closure. Did Bobby ever address saying he wanted Cyclops to die in battle after he killed Xavier? He might have, but I would not be surprised if that's just become "water under the bridge" like everything else. That being said, I LOVE tension, and there could have been a really interesting outcome with character development for both Kurt and Scott. But they never dealt with it, so I understand the fan anger.

The X-books have been quite a dry well for me in recent years - the last Uncanny before Hickman was the most boring thing I've ever read. It made me stop reading until Hickman got his foot pretty well in the door. But in spite of sucking, there were a few Crawler things that I particularly loved:

- Though I didn't like the "I saw some meaningless carnage and I'm crazy now" angle in Extraordinary, I did like seeing Kurt get back on his feet, and make Storm stop coddling him.
- I LOVED Kurt killing Apocalypse. I know it didn't stick, to the point that it basically didn't happen - things getting brushed over like that are another reason why the X-books have been so awful - but I loved how it went down. I'm not into killer!Crawler but it's friggin Apocalypse. And the artistic parallel with him killing Apocalypse and saving Colossus while Illyana lost Sapna in killing the World Eater was fantastic.
- Him starting up the new team with Jean in X-men Red and being her numer one support. It didn't get built up, but it was a thing.
- Disagreeing with Storm and leaving her side, but then fighting for both sides and just doing whatever he wanted in Civil War II
- Kurt starting the support group for mutants with physical mutations with Domino. I wish that had happened years and years ago and always kind of headcanonned that it was a thing. Loved to see it in the books.
- Mini Excalibur reunion and Kurt and Kitty's secret names for ridiculous tactical maneuvers, like driving a plane through a wall. I'm extrapolating that there are others, though, lol
- Giving Old Man Logan that picture of himself, bahaha, it was so unexpected which is what made it gold
- Turned Evil!Nightcrawler going after Sabretooth and especially going after everyone in Germany who hurt him and getting saved by Mystique was fun, although obviously he wasn't in his right mind.
- His Age of X book. I loved it to pieces. Seanan Maguire can have my heart on a platter. Last issue was meh but I was prepared for that because it "had to tie in" with the other books *eye roll*
- And most recently, him and Wolvie go getting themselves inferno'd to save the day. That was dramatic.

And some things I disliked:

- The immortality thing was treated stupidly like what even was the point
- Azazel gets free and... just does whatever and Kurt's like OK cool. what
- He was very boring in Uncanny but so was literally everyone else
- Kurt/Rachel. It was so obviously doomed from the start that watching it implode wasn't even fun.
- Barely any interaction with Storm or Wolvie. At least Wolvie was mostly dead, but Kurt and Storm were on the same team like lmao...
- The stupid "I'm insane now I'm not" thing
- A silly one: wildly changing his appearance for no reason. I have long hair and chin fuzz, now I don't. I have a thick logger beard, now I don't. I shaved my temples, now I don't. I'm wearing chainmail because because, now I'm not. Different looks are all well and good but there were just sooo many in such a short period... I thought he was having an identity crisis.
- I don't like bamfs. There, I said it.


Here's to hoping the 2020s will hold good things for Kurt and the X-books in general.

There’s been some damn silly stuff recently! Particularly when you lump it all together like that.
The immortality was weird, pointless and not well done at all
Azazel was clearly just an excuse for Kurt; he didn’t come back from heaven to thwart his father, he obviously came back to be with his friends.
Kurt/Rachel was unconvincing and didn’t do either character any favours.
I need need more interaction with Ororo and Logan (they’re my OT3 but I’m completely happy with friendship). Also need to see him with Kate, Peter, Bobby, Rogue. His friends. This is a problem I have with Krakoa, everyone is spread out all over the place.
I miss the beard... guess Logan didn’t like it...
I kinda liked the Bamfs, but I kinda hated them too. When they were used well, there were some cute scenes but I think they’ve had their day and don’t think we’ll see them again.

I have issues with some of Hickman’s writing, but the whole Krakoa thing is a much needed breath of fresh air and I’m willing to go along with the premise and will be interested in seeing where Kurt ends up at the end of it. Both his parents are on the Island, now would be an ideal time to do something about his over convoluted parentage.

[Anduinel]

In positive news, it looks like Kurt's going to be in CotA with his new sidekick. Characters can do a heck of a lot worse than to be written by Vita Ayala.

[Su_Whisterfield]

In positive news, it looks like Kurt's going to be in CotA with his new sidekick. Characters can do a heck of a lot worse than to be written by Vita Ayala.

Yes, I’ve not come across Vita before, it could be interesting, I hope they write him well. I think he’s good in a mentoring role, fits his skill set.

[Su_Whisterfield]

I'm calling this Kurt Wagner: The Once Reluctant Leader (which is actually a term).

Well I just decided to post parts of the interview here to show what I was responding to in words. Completely different post from the one in the other thread but thought that since this is to do with NC it should be addressed in here as well.

Well I wasnt much focused on whether Kurt enjoyed being a leader actually. Since the early X-Men days it was obvious Kurt didn't think that it was a role he imagined himself in. RR provided the scans and there is Wolvy himself scoffing at the idea of himself being the X-Mens leader, very different from his days leading X-Force. This interview sort of ignores interviews by CC and Davis themselves and his character arc that reached fruition with him taking up the mantle in issue 45 of Excalibur. True leadership style than Scotts which has been discussed. This sort of ignores all that outcry thats been going on about him being downgraded to the teams mascot again. You don't have to agree but dont pretend that wasnt a big part of Kurts more vocal fans. Don't deny the one of the two camps just because you only agree with the other please Marvel.

AIPT: Bethany w. Pope (@BethanyWPope) said that Nightcrawler is a character who’s lead a team on occasion, but it never really sticks the way it does for Storm or Cyclops. Why do you think that is?

Jordan: I think that for fans of Nightcrawler–and by that I mean both readers AND creators who like him–that’s typically not what they are coming to that character for.

Is it what I'm looking for when I wan't more NC Actually. No. Not really. I would like to see some new and interesting ideas with Kurt overall as it has already been explored in the past. Don't get me wrong it may be interesting to see Kurt become X-Men leader - a successful one- just for a change instead of the same one forever: Cyclops (and I guess you can add Wolverine). His lack of success in the X-Men but his success in Excalibur? Hum, I think it has a lot to do with the X-Offices inability to let go of Cyclops and peoples inability to see Kurt other than the X-Mens cheerleader. Which is something that has been quite griped about on these forums since Kurt has taken a backseat when CC left in his final run. But count me as one of those supposedly rare fans that rather not see Kurt as just a friend among quite a few who used to post here. Man, I still remember how angry the fans were at Austen for that issue way back when when it was first released, especially here on CBR, with Scott berating Kurt for being a friend and not a leader. They felt like years of development had been flushed down the drain. This was before CBR had appreciation threads and I was under a different user name and we had to voice our complaints souly in the issue threads as they came out or start a whole new topic. Being constantly cheerleader/friend only was why so many users gave up the comics. I've just conversed with some recently. I will add that there are those that prefer Kurt the carefree adventurous confident as well so you won't see them opposing this view of him and thats their right of course. Kurt did get a bit dusty towards the end of Excalibur.

AIPT: Welcome back, Jordan! So, of all the leaders of all the various X-Teams, who is your personal favorite and why?

Jordan: Oh–a “favorite” question that I am not going to answer with “Original Excalibur”! Mostly because I don’t think Excalibur really had a leader. Whenever I see people saying Nightcrawler was the leader of classic Excalibur I am like “He was?” I never got that impression.

I gather this wasn't his favorite question because of people like me since favorite its in quotation marks. Sorry, I guess? I'm one of those odd peeps that liked Kurt as leader of Excalibur and uh, actually thought he was by the stories themselves and not something I conjured up because of wishful thinking especially Alan Davis' solo days and up. But I didn't really see it as an X-Book til Ellis (Maybe a little before). So I really dont count pre those days him being an X-Leader but it seemed more like a Defenders/Avengers team. This comment by Jordan might bring back the Chuck haters out from hiding, lol, but probably not because I think they gave up.

Resources:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nightcrawler

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/nightcrawler/4005-1461/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightcrawler_(comics)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nightcrawler

https://www.cbr.com/excalibur-most-p...embers-ranked/



At least Hickman is giving him a voice I guess I just wished I liked his writing. *sigh*

Anyway, I want Kurt to go solo into the greater MU or join a team but not Avengers but a whole new team after Kurts story of being a councel member is through! I loved his icons series, despite him being a priest he really didn't refer to his faith all that much. I wouldn't mind seeing Abnett and Lanning have a crack at him again. They wrote him so well in Amanda/Jimaines mini. The wrote mostly Marvel Uk and Marvel cosmic titles but you could tell they knew the character and his potential. Is it wrong to say the X-Men aren't doing it for me anymore?

There’s not right way or wrong way to be a fan of any of the characters, we all bring our own experiences and opinions to our view of Kurt, of any character.

As you quite rightly say, the character in the role of leader will naturally get lots of development (both good and bad!) and it’s way too easy for writers to reduce Nightcrawler to the cheerleader/mascot role.

He’s not linked into the Phoenix mythos, he’s not part of the Weapon X program, or the Charles/Eric dynamic or the extraterrestrial Shi'ar stuff. He has more of a link with the Magik/magic side of the X-men, what with the Soul Sword and the whole Margali/Jimaine mess but he’s not pivotal to any of those storylines, or at least not recently.

He needs a writer to give him a clear direction, as I’ve said previously, I don’t like his links to Azazel and the demon stuff; it goes against the whole looks-like-a-demon-but-is actually-just-a-mutant thing, which was his from the start. If that direction is the more magical end of the X-Men spectrum, then so be it.
I hadn’t really considered him moving into the large Marvel Universe, I don’t read any of the other books, but what I like about Kurt, personally, very much, is the friend side of him and seeing him with his friends and surrogate family so I’m not sure I want to isolate him from that.

But I would like someone to do something with him, looking at you Mr Hickman.
I know he’s not yet on a roster as a regular, but I can’t help feeling that he’s in the wings, waiting to go on, he’s on The Council, his parents are both on the Island, we have that Giant Sized coming up, it all feels like setting the stage for something.

[Tasuxeda]

There’s not right way or wrong way to be a fan of any of the characters, we all bring our own experiences and opinions to our view of Kurt, of any character.

As you quite rightly say, the character in the role of leader will naturally get lots of development (both good and bad!) and it’s way too easy for writers to reduce Nightcrawler to the cheerleader/mascot role.

He’s not linked into the Phoenix mythos, he’s not part of the Weapon X program, or the Charles/Eric dynamic or the extraterrestrial Shi'ar stuff. He has more of a link with the Magik/magic side of the X-men, what with the Soul Sword and the whole Margali/Jimaine mess but he’s not pivotal to any of those storylines, or at least not recently.

He needs a writer to give him a clear direction, as I’ve said previously, I don’t like his links to Azazel and the demon stuff; it goes against the whole looks-like-a-demon-but-is actually-just-a-mutant thing, which was his from the start. If that direction is the more magical end of the X-Men spectrum, then so be it.
I hadn’t really considered him moving into the large Marvel Universe, I don’t read any of the other books, but what I like about Kurt, personally, very much, is the friend side of him and seeing him with his friends and surrogate family so I’m not sure I want to isolate him from that.

But I would like someone to do something with him, looking at you Mr Hickman.
I know he’s not yet on a roster as a regular, but I can’t help feeling that he’s in the wings, waiting to go on, he’s on The Council, his parents are both on the Island, we have that Giant Sized coming up, it all feels like setting the stage for something.

While Azazel did initially try and pretend that he was the devil he quite quickly admitted that he and the Neyaphem are really mutants so Nightcawler links to them in no way goes against his looks-like-a-demon-but-is actually-just-a-mutant thing.

[Su_Whisterfield]

While Azazel did initially try and pretend that he was the devil he quite quickly admired that he and the Neyaphem are really mutants so Nightcawler links to them in no way goes against his looks-like-a-demon-but-is actually-just-a-mutant thing.

Sigh. I know, but it seemed so unnecessary, particularly as we already had a suitable contender in Belasco (a human made into a demon) who already had strong connections with the X-Franchise, he was truly scary in those Kazar’s in the early 80’s and truly revolting in his interactions with the X-team

[CRaymond]

Sigh. I know, but it seemed so unnecessary, particularly as we already had a suitable contender in Belasco (a human made into a demon) who already had strong connections with the X-Franchise, he was truly scary in those Kazar’s in the early 80’s and truly revolting in his interactions with the X-team

So how would you have brought Mystique to Limbo? Or Belasco to Raven's Tinder?

[Su_Whisterfield]

So how would you have brought Mystique to Limbo? Or Belasco to Raven's Tinder?

Oh gosh, I had it all worked out but that was thirty (forty, Sue, forty) years ago! I’d have to re-read the Kazar issues, I don’t think they are up on Marvel Unlimited and my copies are in a box in the spare room but I’m not sure which one.
Belasco had a lab complex and tubes of experiments, in Atlantis, I think, very Sinister-like, some of his experiments looked a bit like Kurt (they were just background details, possibly just something Brent Anderson put in for his own enjoyment). This was before he kidnapped Illyana, when his intentions were on Shanna. If I recall, when he got frozen in the 13c he still had both arms and we didn’t find out how he lost one, and if anyone could have lopped an arm of the old bugger, Raven could.

The idea of Raven having a Tinder is in and of itself, terrifying.

[Su_Whisterfield]

Another from Nick Robles, we are not worthy.

4CD09A77-7395-481B-A414-ED343CC397D5.jpg

Fans self.

[cinnaminion]

Another from Nick Robles, we are not worthy.

4CD09A77-7395-481B-A414-ED343CC397D5.jpg

Fans self.

Nick Robles destroys me again and again.

I wonder about the whole Neyaphem thing. Since Austen they've not addressed it much. Instead various people, including Mephisto, have talked about Kurt's demonic heritage or whatever. Azazel is pretty much referred to consistently as a demon too. However, in Amazing Azazel tried to take over Hell in the style of a pirate invasion, which makes it seem like his own realm is not Hell. Close enough that he can just go there, but separate. And he seems more mutant-like than demon-like when he's in the "real world." I suppose we need to know what Azazel mutated from. A human, a demon, or some other random magical entity? Kind of makes me think of Orcs in Lord of the Rings - not created from scratch by a god, and mutated from Elves rather than from Men. There's a lot more religious mysticism in the Marvel afterlife than you typically find in mainstream Christianity, so anything's possible. In the end, most writers recently seem to treat Kurt like he's half-demon. It all depends on the writers.

[Su_Whisterfield]

A

Nick Robles destroys me again and again.

I wonder about the whole Neyaphem thing. Since Austen they've not addressed it much. Instead various people, including Mephisto, have talked about Kurt's demonic heritage or whatever. Azazel is pretty much referred to consistently as a demon too. However, in Amazing Azazel tried to take over Hell in the style of a pirate invasion, which makes it seem like his own realm is not Hell. Close enough that he can just go there, but separate. And he seems more mutant-like than demon-like when he's in the "real world." I suppose we need to know what Azazel mutated from. A human, a demon, or some other random magical entity? Kind of makes me think of Orcs in Lord of the Rings - not created from scratch by a god, and mutated from Elves rather than from Men. There's a lot more religious mysticism in the Marvel afterlife than you typically find in mainstream Christianity, so anything's possible. In the end, most writers recently seem to treat Kurt like he's half-demon. It all depends on the writers.

I will love Hickman forever if he retcons Mystique and Irene as his parents, there is nothing in current canon to say what Mystique’s gender actually is. She presents as female, but that could purely be a choice on Mystique’s part. Truly gender-fluid, makes the character so much more interesting.