Is Krakoa a fascist cult?

[tuck frump]

Christian Frost is already doing it.

We get our state provided blonde dye right after we bust our first kneecap.

[Slicknickshady]

Yes, it is one!

[Electricmastro]

I feel like most people here are gonna say no because the X-Forums are pretty sensitive to the X-Men being portrayed as whackos sometimes, lol.

I voted maybe. I'm also here for the sweat from the debate.

These forums sometimes tend to lean more towards reactionary emotions more so than critical, evidence-based analysis I've noticed, which I think should be the driving force of discussions regarding serious topics more than non-academic comparisons, entitlement, and vitriol, which seems to be the attitude that some people jump towards even when they feel the least bit uncomfortable and don't make a solid argument for as to why they're uncomfortable in the first place. Basically, if you disagree with someone, but they are still worth listening to, then I think the least that can be done is see point they have to make and how well they can argue it, even if it's something in regards to the X-Men.

[Knives]

These forums sometimes tend to lean more towards reactionary emotions more so than critical, evidence-based analysis I've noticed, which I think should be the driving force of discussions regarding serious topics more than non-academic comparisons, entitlement, and vitriol, which seems to be the attitude that some people jump towards even when they feel the least bit uncomfortable and don't make a solid argument for as to why they're uncomfortable in the first place. Basically, if you disagree with someone, but they are still worth listening to, then I think the least that can be done is see point they have to make and how well they can argue it, even if it's something in regards to the X-Men.

Since this is already the fourth or fifth topic on the subject or something very similar and the result has not changed I could say that not everyone is willing to have the same conversation about the same topic every three weeks.

Being a minority doesn't mean you're wrong. Krakoa has serious problems that are likely to cause many problems in the near future but how can you be against something that is saving lives? Why should X-men trust humans after being nearly extinct at least 5 or 6 times in the last 20 years? If humanity does not change why should they accept the death of their children and loved ones?

[BroHomo]

Since this is already the fourth or fifth topic on the subject or something very similar and the result has not changed I could say that not everyone is willing to have the same conversation about the same topic every three weeks.

lol right?

[Electricmastro]

Since this is already the fourth or fifth topic on the subject or something very similar and the result has not changed I could say that not everyone is willing to have the same conversation about the same topic every three weeks.

Being a minority doesn't mean you're wrong. Krakoa has serious problems that are likely to cause many problems in the near future but how can you be against something that is saving lives? Why should X-men trust humans after being nearly extinct at least 5 or 6 times in the last 20 years? If humanity does not change why should they accept the death of their children and loved ones?

And I could say that not everyone is against something that is saving lives, and in regards to what you said about how "Krakoa has serious problems that are likely to cause many problems in the near future," then could not someone else say something similar in regards to how some of the previous X-Men writers had failed in maintaining compelling, varied worldbuilding in regards to the human relations, as opposed to having the majority of the humans all be genocidal maniacs for example? If humanity does not change, for better or for worse, then that's definitely a responsibility to be had on the way the writers had things play out, whether on purpose or by accident.

[Zelena]

Since this is already the fourth or fifth topic on the subject or something very similar and the result has not changed I could say that not everyone is willing to have the same conversation about the same topic every three weeks.

Being a minority doesn't mean you're wrong. Krakoa has serious problems that are likely to cause many problems in the near future but how can you be against something that is saving lives? Why should X-men trust humans after being nearly extinct at least 5 or 6 times in the last 20 years? If humanity does not change why should they accept the death of their children and loved ones?

Well, the mutants on Krakoa have apparently forgiven the mutants that were criminal, homicidal maniacs…

What troubles me is the distinction is made between mutants and non-mutants rather than 'good people' and 'bad people'.

And no, fascism is not the same as segregationism or racism or cultism. The main difference with real situations is probably that the mutants created a nation on a 'deserted island' and not gained power in a place where people were already there. No need to change the laws and make space…

Funny that the mutants are still identified as a minority. It is the case off-Krakoa but not on the island: Shogo is the minority there.

[Tycon]

lol right?

I’m sure we’re gonna get another one, next time emphasizing the “cult” aspect when the Resurrection Protocols issue comes out.

[ARkadelphia]

Look in my eyes. What do you see?

[Knives]

Well, the mutants on Krakoa have apparently forgiven the mutants that were criminal, homicidal maniacs…

What troubles me is the distinction is made between mutants and non-mutants rather than 'good people' and 'bad people'.

And no, fascism is not the same as segregationism or racism or cultism. The main difference with real situations is probably that the mutants created a nation on a 'deserted island' and not gained power in a place where people were already there. No need to change the laws and make space…

Funny that the mutants are still identified as a minority. It is the case off-Krakoa but not on the island: Shogo is the minority there.

A nation is something bigger than its individuals it is true that several villains are part of krakoa and this can turn against them but if you have seen Moira's memories then you understand that there is no other choice. These characters have specific roles to perform and there is no prison in the world capable of holding them or perhaps it is impossible to kill them. So what to do with them? At least in Krakoa they can be helpful and X-men can keep them under surveillance.

What's more, you speak as if humans are different for some terrorist is a hero and for others a hero is a terrorist. Two of the most powerful countries in the world USA and Russia started a war in Iraq and Crimea based on lies or economic motivations and no one was punished for it simply because no one can do anything against them. Several dictators are backed by the most powerful countries in the world to protect their interests and war criminals or dealers are free to agreements involving money or because they have evidence about the secrets of powerful people.

God we even have a person who won a Nobel Peace Prize accused of ethnic persecution .

What do you expect Xavier to open the gates so humans can attack mutants on the island without restriction? Have we forgotten that Xavier was recently killed and if not for the resurrection protocol Krakoa would have lost one of his leaders and some of his people in the attack? Did we forget what happened in Genosha? Utopia? The bus with the kids at school?

[Zelena]

A nation is something bigger than its individuals it is true that several villains are part of krakoa and this can turn against them but if you have seen Moira's memories then you understand that there is no other choice. These characters have specific roles to perform and there is no prison in the world capable of holding them or perhaps it is impossible to kill them. So what to do with them? At least in Krakoa they can be helpful and X-men can keep them under surveillance.

What's more, you speak as if humans are different for some terrorist is a hero and for others a hero is a terrorist. Two of the most powerful countries in the world USA and Russia started a war in Iraq and Crimea based on lies or economic motivations and no one was punished for it simply because no one can do anything against them. Several dictators are backed by the most powerful countries in the world to protect their interests and war criminals or dealers are free to agreements involving money or because they have evidence about the secrets of powerful people.

God we even have a person who won a Nobel Peace Prize accused of ethnic persecution .

What do you expect Xavier to open the gates so humans can attack mutants on the island without restriction? Have we forgotten that Xavier was recently killed and if not for the resurrection protocol Krakoa would have lost one of his leaders and some of his people in the attack? Did we forget what happened in Genosha? Utopia? The bus with the kids at school?

It's true that we are not able to ensure that justice and fairness prevail in our world and even among nations that have equality and great principles engraved in their constitution, those principles aren't necessarily translated into reality.

Though, if something feels wrong, it's nice to see it reported in the media. Just to know where we stand. And the narrator of a comic story cannot not give his point of view… (Previously, I have always known what the author felt about an situation, who represented him among all the characters. I feel nothing with Hickman… it's like he doesn't care.)

Anyway, as a young nation, Krakoa sends quite a strange message to the rest of the world to keep these former criminals in key positions. After a war, a dictatorship, often, corrupted elites stay in position but as the country often lack the people to replace them, it would be too detrimental and disruptive to fire them. But you cannot say that it's a sane situation that should be a permanent one.

I may admit that Xavier has a pragmatic approach to them, but still, how can he build anything based on moral standards if he doesn't apply these standards to people on Krakoa? The fact that it troubles Krakoans only mildly is… troubling.

[king of hybrids]

Krakoa’s only a cult in the sense that limitations of the medium/genre have occasionally cast the X-Men as a cult. Which is to say: it’s not, but it has by accident/design some of the trappings.

Since “haha stupid christians” tends to, fairly of unfairly, be about as nuanced as criticism of religion gets in the big two, I would imagine Hickman’s not going to touch whether the religious mutants have suddenly cast off their human-derived beliefs in favour of Krakoa, either by choice or edict; so that’s the religious angle of a cult safely cut off at the root.

I would say that separate from the agendas of the QC, there is the risk that Xavier’s true believers may be the bane of the project as they are to the Old Guard of most political upheavals, especially if the inevitable reveal of Moira is’nt handled right

[nandes]

Though, if something feels wrong, it's nice to see it reported in the media. Just to know where we stand. And the narrator of a comic story cannot not give his point of view… (Previously, I have always known what the author felt about an situation, who represented him among all the characters. I feel nothing with Hickman… it's like he doesn't care.)

Thought you already mentioned that you haven't actually read any of Hickman's X-Men books?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Krakoa’s only a cult in the sense that limitations of the medium/genre have occasionally cast the X-Men as a cult. Which is to say: it’s not, but it has by accident/design some of the trappings.

Since “haha stupid christians” tends to, fairly of unfairly, be about as nuanced as criticism of religion gets in the big two, I would imagine Hickman’s not going to touch whether the religious mutants have suddenly cast off their human-derived beliefs in favour of Krakoa, either by choice or edict; so that’s the religious angle of a cult safely cut off at the root.

I would say that separate from the agendas of the QC, there is the risk that Xavier’s true believers may be the bane of the project as they are to the Old Guard of most political upheavals, especially if the inevitable reveal of Moira is’nt handled right

Not strictly true; while Magneto's made it clear that 'human' religion (as far as he's concerned) has no place on the island, there's nothing saying that a new 'mutant' form of religion can't be formed as a result. For example, Krakoa seems to be viewed in a rather biblical light, with characters professing a kind of worship to it and doing all they can to 'give back' to it. That's not unlike cult behaviour.

[Electricmastro]

A nation is something bigger than its individuals it is true that several villains are part of krakoa and this can turn against them but if you have seen Moira's memories then you understand that there is no other choice.

Moira feels there is no other choice from her certain point of view, you mean, and if the writers have objectively indeed framed the story in such a way that they have to present Krakoa this way because of all that happened, then I think that basically sums up Hickman's rebellion against how the mutant relations had been handled in the last 20 or 30 years.

I can't say this enough times: the way many previous writers have handled the recent human/mutant relations has been bad, dissonance levels of bad, and the fact that some people here seem to be willing to go so far as to justify Krakoa being a fascist cult on the basis of all that bad writing that involved badly handled storylines involving human religious extremists and genocides is rather troubling indeed. This isn't to justify atrocities being done to mutants, but an opposition to bad writing in the first place, even if said bad writing involve something as notable as human/mutant relations.