Mr. & Mrs. X: Gambit and Rogue Appreciation 2020

[Sandmans_Raven]

Meanwhile my envy of BatCat grows. LOL Ready for that book to launch already.

Ugh. Hard agree. I know his run on Batman has been polarizing, but I liked what I read and it would be nice to get a superhero couple book again (isn't Mann the artist for it, even?).

I wonder if Tom King would ever write the X-Men? What would that even look like? If he ever decided to cross the isle over to Marvel ... I don't read enough DC to know if he's done much for team books or how that has gone. I just really like a lot of his concentrated works like Mr. Miracle.

Just thinking they'll need someone to fill Hickman's very large and famous shoes whenever he grows tired of us very annoying X-fans.

Yeah, I'm not sure. Mr. Miracle and Vision were both great and I looooved his run on Grayson. Maybe he would be better for a solo book for someone. Gambit in the style of Grayson would be a good fit, but I'd be interested to see what X-characters he likes.

If he's done a team book, I haven't read it. If he did an X-book, I'm sure it would be divisive, but aren't they all? lol

[Kingdom X]

Ugh. Hard agree. I know his run on Batman has been polarizing, but I liked what I read and it would be nice to get a superhero couple book again (isn't Mann the artist for it, even?).



Yeah, I'm not sure. Mr. Miracle and Vision were both great and I looooved his run on Grayson. Maybe he would be better for a solo book for someone. Gambit in the style of Grayson would be a good fit, but I'd be interested to see what X-characters he likes.

If he's done a team book, I haven't read it. If he did an X-book, I'm sure it would be divisive, but aren't they all? lol

I think a King X-Men book would be a disaster. He seems like he's much better at solo stories and especially those where the characters are somewhat blank slates (though I haven't read his Omega Men so I may be wrong about the first part). X-Men fans are particularly sensitive about writers honoring these characters' previous relationships and character traits.

[Gripstir]

Ugh. Hard agree. I know his run on Batman has been polarizing, but I liked what I read and it would be nice to get a superhero couple book again (isn't Mann the artist for it, even?).



Yeah, I'm not sure. Mr. Miracle and Vision were both great and I looooved his run on Grayson. Maybe he would be better for a solo book for someone. Gambit in the style of Grayson would be a good fit, but I'd be interested to see what X-characters he likes.

If he's done a team book, I haven't read it. If he did an X-book, I'm sure it would be divisive, but aren't they all? lol

Please don't let Tom King write Gambit so many people are already trying to undercut gambit. Watching Tom King make Batman feel so weak and needing Catwoman to sort of save him and nurture him the whole time was such a boring read. Catwoman especially was written so poorly and inconsistent and I'm a huge fan of Catwoman but I stopped reading those Batman books. Mainly because I just didn't enjoy reading Tom King's Batman depression. The depression felt personal in a way and I felt Tom King was writing himself as Batman and there were too many instances where I felt "this isn't Batman that I'm reading, it's the writer as Batman.". I know technically that's part of it but I've never been so aware of a writer self insert on a page as I was in that series. Idk if Tom King was depressed while writing all that but that's how it felt, there were some cool moments I won't say it all was bad but I don't want him writing Gambit.

Nerdy comic book guys struggle to write womanizing characters like Gambit well because they cant relate. So they end up writing them as these emotionally stunted idiots who need women to complete them. They never feel like the most important character in the room. They feel like they just fit in. Gambit already has enough of that storyline in Mr and Mrs X and Excaliber

[TheRealWashout]

Obviously you don’t need poly for that. You just need the writers to get off their lazy bums and try writing some character interactions that don’t involve shipping. It’s not hard to do and they could if they tried...

Right? Still awaiting those great Blue team feels from Excalibur. Jubilee and Gambit had such a great rapport in the early 90s and later in the Marjorie Liu Astonishing. Where did that go? Betsy was fairly chummy with Rogue in the Outback, while Remy and her tended to but heads through the 90s. Just not feeling much of anything from them currently except universally giving Gambit ****.

Thank you both for realizing I was just bullying the writers and not literally thinking the only way they could talk to other people is through polyamory 😂.

[AppleJ]

Please don't let Tom King write Gambit so many people are already trying to undercut gambit. Watching Tom King make Batman feel so weak and needing Catwoman to sort of save him and nurture him the whole time was such a boring read. Catwoman especially was written so poorly and inconsistent and I'm a huge fan of Catwoman but I stopped reading those Batman books. Mainly because I just didn't enjoy reading Tom King's Batman depression. The depression felt personal in a way and I felt Tom King was writing himself as Batman and there were too many instances where I felt "this isn't Batman that I'm reading, it's the writer as Batman.". I know technically that's part of it but I've never been so aware of a writer self insert on a page as I was in that series. Idk if Tom King was depressed while writing all that but that's how it felt, there were some cool moments I won't say it all was bad but I don't want him writing Gambit.

Nerdy comic book guys struggle to write womanizing characters like Gambit well because they cant relate. So they end up writing them as these emotionally stunted idiots who need women to complete them. They never feel like the most important character in the room. They feel like they just fit in. Gambit already has enough of that storyline in Mr and Mrs X and Excaliber

Well, I actually like getting into the emotional headspace of my characters so these stories work for me a lot.

Everyone gets depressed sometimes, even those who project a lot of confidence and seem extremely powerful. In fact, many people who project a lot of confidence don't actually feel that confident at all and act that way to protect themselves and survive. What nobody wants to admit is that it has a toll.

Needing someone for emotional support doesn't make you weak. Everyone needs someone in their life they can depend on. I would even say projecting the "need no one, show no emotion" type of male character is seriously damaging to represent as an ideal expectation of men in media. There's a reason the rate of suicide is so high in men. No one can live up to that. It's not a good thing and nobody wants to talk about it.

Anyway ...

While Gambit has been a womanizer, I don't think he still is. At least not in the sense of meaning to follow through with something. As an act and a face he puts on to get what he wants and play angles - totally. But we've seen him go through some major emotional ups and downs in his time - regret/depression about his involvement in the Morlock Massacre, sadness after breaking up with women he loves (Belle, Rogue), more regret/self-hate after becoming Death and betraying the X-Men to go back to Sinister. Where does a character that's believable as a human put all that emotion baggage? And don't those experiences change them?

I guess I've had enough of life by now to say that they do. I am not the person I was 10 or 20 years ago. Seeing that reflected in comics makes me only love them more.

[Sandmans_Raven]

I think a King X-Men book would be a disaster. He seems like he's much better at solo stories and especially those where the characters are somewhat blank slates (though I haven't read his Omega Men so I may be wrong about the first part). X-Men fans are particularly sensitive about writers honoring these characters' previous relationships and character traits.

I completely forgot about Omega Men. I know it was well-received by a lot of fans but haven't read it personally.

Please don't let Tom King write Gambit so many people are already trying to undercut gambit. Watching Tom King make Batman feel so weak and needing Catwoman to sort of save him and nurture him the whole time was such a boring read. Catwoman especially was written so poorly and inconsistent and I'm a huge fan of Catwoman but I stopped reading those Batman books. Mainly because I just didn't enjoy reading Tom King's Batman depression. The depression felt personal in a way and I felt Tom King was writing himself as Batman and there were too many instances where I felt "this isn't Batman that I'm reading, it's the writer as Batman.". I know technically that's part of it but I've never been so aware of a writer self insert on a page as I was in that series. Idk if Tom King was depressed while writing all that but that's how it felt, there were some cool moments I won't say it all was bad but I don't want him writing Gambit.

Nerdy comic book guys struggle to write womanizing characters like Gambit well because they cant relate. So they end up writing them as these emotionally stunted idiots who need women to complete them. They never feel like the most important character in the room. They feel like they just fit in. Gambit already has enough of that storyline in Mr and Mrs X and Excaliber

If King's Batman isn't your cup of tea, then that's one thing, but to say that he would do the same with Gambit is something else entirely. He's done similar things with Mr. Miracle, but Grayson was completely different (hence why I used that as a reference in my original comment). He took Dick Grayson from his usual setting and put him in a spy setting, where he had to adapt to a new world and examine what he learned from Batman while still making him the fun, energetic character he's always been. And he didn't rely on needing a woman to complete him and certainly wasn't an "emotionally-stunted idiot". But he still relied on his friends/colleagues in the book (and those who he was away from) for support. Which is something I find relatable and interesting to explore.

I'm also not saying that King would be the perfect Gambit writer. I'm just saying in this hypothetical situation, King could conceivably write an interesting Gambit book if he did it in a way that was more similar to Grayson than Batman

[AppleJ]

I completely forgot about Omega Men. I know it was well-received by a lot of fans but haven't read it personally.



If King's Batman isn't your cup of tea, then that's one thing, but to say that he would do the same with Gambit is something else entirely. He's done similar things with Mr. Miracle, but Grayson was completely different (hence why I used that as a reference in my original comment). He took Dick Grayson from his usual setting and put him in a spy setting, where he had to adapt to a new world and examine what he learned from Batman while still making him the fun, energetic character he's always been. And he didn't rely on needing a woman to complete him and certainly wasn't an "emotionally-stunted idiot". But he still relied on his friends/colleagues in the book (and those who he was away from) for support. Which is something I find relatable and interesting to explore.

I'm also not saying that King would be the perfect Gambit writer. I'm just saying in this hypothetical situation, King could conceivably write an interesting Gambit book if he did it in a way that was more similar to Grayson than Batman

My guess is Tom King would have no interest in writing Gambit or Rogue whatsoever.

But stories with a lot of emotional maturity and more interpersonal relationships are definitely what I'm after.

I figure we have Hickman two years minimum, maybe 5 at the most. Whoever takes the next leg of the relay might not even be a known entity in comics yet. Somebody from outside media or an up and coming writer.

[Sandmans_Raven]

My guess is Tom King would have no interest in writing Gambit or Rogue whatsoever.

But stories with a lot of emotional maturity and more interpersonal relationships are definitely what I'm after.

I figure we have Hickman two years minimum, maybe 5 at the most. Whoever takes the next leg of the relay might not even be a known entity in comics yet. Somebody from outside media or an up and coming writer.

Yeah, I'm guessing that too. He seems pretty content with DC at this point.

Same here, in regards to emotional maturity/interpersonal relationships. That's one of the reasons I always gravitated to X-Men in the first place. I like seeing Rogue supporting Bobby when he visits his parents and Gambit being a mentor/friend to Laura. I don't care about Gambit being talked down to because he doesn't trust the "ex"-bad guy or another story where Rogue can't control her powers. Honestly, that's one reason I liked Rogue in Avengers. She had some good interactions with her team, especially with Deadpool.

[Gripstir]

Well, I actually like getting into the emotional headspace of my characters so these stories work for me a lot.

Everyone gets depressed sometimes, even those who project a lot of confidence and seem extremely powerful. In fact, many people who project a lot of confidence don't actually feel that confident at all and act that way to protect themselves and survive. What nobody wants to admit is that it has a toll.

Needing someone for emotional support doesn't make you weak. Everyone needs someone in their life they can depend on. I would even say projecting the "need no one, show no emotion" type of male character is seriously damaging to represent as an ideal expectation of men in media. There's a reason the rate of suicide is so high in men. No one can live up to that. It's not a good thing and nobody wants to talk about it.

Anyway ...

While Gambit has been a womanizer, I don't think he still is. At least not in the sense of meaning to follow through with something. As an act and a face he puts on to get what he wants and play angles - totally. But we've seen him go through some major emotional ups and downs in his time - regret/depression about his involvement in the Morlock Massacre, sadness after breaking up with women he loves (Belle, Rogue), more regret/self-hate after becoming Death and betraying the X-Men to go back to Sinister. Where does a character that's believable as a human put all that emotion baggage? And don't those experiences change them?

I guess I've had enough of life by now to say that they do. I am not the person I was 10 or 20 years ago. Seeing that reflected in comics makes me only love them more.

I agree with you depression is real and in no way am I saying characters should be emotionless. But it reminds me of a review I saw today about a show that had a particularly depressing season of the show. He was talking about he can appreciate what the themes and the story plot is. But can still hold back the story and characters to explore that emotional state. I think Batman can be broody and such and I think some of the stuff can be very powerful. and they even work in shorter doses. but as a default state for a comic book it's just too draining and too pessimistic for me.

With Gambit I've said many times I think when he's with Rogue he's a less interesting character. His arc always becomes about her and protecting her. I would love for some Gambit psychology but like I said he's not someone a lot of comic book writers relate to. I hate the Morlock massacre as an explanation of gambits psyche. And a lot of people postulate trial of gambit was the start of his push out of the mainstream cause it kinda tanked his character a bit. His trial of gambit storyline was written by Steve Seagle who admitted he hated Gambit but was forced to write for him by the execs. And in his current storylines Gambit is very much a suburban supportive husband. He always feels like the support character between him and Rogue. I don't know why it feels that way but it does. Gambit lost a little bit of that personality that people loved him for. And I fear someone like Tom King would just make Remy into a broody boy who struggles with an enemy Til Rogue comes in and cleans it up for him

[Gripstir]

I completely forgot about Omega Men. I know it was well-received by a lot of fans but haven't read it personally.



If King's Batman isn't your cup of tea, then that's one thing, but to say that he would do the same with Gambit is something else entirely. He's done similar things with Mr. Miracle, but Grayson was completely different (hence why I used that as a reference in my original comment). He took Dick Grayson from his usual setting and put him in a spy setting, where he had to adapt to a new world and examine what he learned from Batman while still making him the fun, energetic character he's always been. And he didn't rely on needing a woman to complete him and certainly wasn't an "emotionally-stunted idiot". But he still relied on his friends/colleagues in the book (and those who he was away from) for support. Which is something I find relatable and interesting to explore.

I'm also not saying that King would be the perfect Gambit writer. I'm just saying in this hypothetical situation, King could conceivably write an interesting Gambit book if he did it in a way that was more similar to Grayson than Batman

Sure I suppose that makes sense but the reason I feel it might be closer to Batman is that Batman and Catwoman just got married and so those characters are interlocked. gambit and rogue just got interlocked too. So it would make sense he would right about their dynamic as like I said going by previous works I just don't have faith in where he would take it

[AppleJ]

I agree with you depression is real and in no way am I saying characters should be emotionless. But it reminds me of a review I saw today about a show that had a particularly depressing season of the show. He was talking about he can appreciate what the themes and the story plot is. But can still hold back the story and characters to explore that emotional state. I think Batman can be broody and such and I think some of the stuff can be very powerful. and they even work in shorter doses. but as a default state for a comic book it's just too draining and too pessimistic for me.

With Gambit I've said many times I think when he's with Rogue he's a less interesting character. His arc always becomes about her and protecting her. I would love for some Gambit psychology but like I said he's not someone a lot of comic book writers relate to. I hate the Morlock massacre as an explanation of gambits psyche. And a lot of people postulate trial of gambit was the start of his push out of the mainstream cause it kinda tanked his character a bit. His trial of gambit storyline was written by Steve Seagle who admitted he hated Gambit but was forced to write for him by the execs. And in his current storylines Gambit is very much a suburban supportive husband. He always feels like the support character between him and Rogue. I don't know why it feels that way but it does. Gambit lost a little bit of that personality that people loved him for. And I fear someone like Tom King would just make Remy into a broody boy who struggles with an enemy Til Rogue comes in and cleans it up for him

Well there's a lot to unpack there.

I mean since this is an appreciation thread for the relationship, this generally isn't the appropriate place to come to criticize it. Not that you have to like it or can't criticize it, just that this probably isn't the place since this is the place for fans of the couple. So I'll leave that be, other than to say I adore their relationship and think they do a lot for each other.

I can appreciate if you don't enjoy a more pessimistic tone or gloomy environment, though that's usually par for the course with a grittier landscape.

You definitely don't have to like the Mutant Massacre and can question the reasons it was written certainly, but you can't remove it from the character's continuity at this point. It happened. It has consequences for the character going forward. To ignore it would be strange. I absolutely hated the Blood of Apocalypse storyline, but it's part of his continuity. There's no reason you can't take from the emotional impact of these storylines to build a character up and give them motivation and growth going forward. Marjorie Liu's X-23 storyline was especially good with this. Remy's emotional/personal growth made him want to help Laura through her own difficulties. Early 90's Remy wouldn't have had these same insights and probably never would have stepped into this role. So from something I hated grew a story I will read over and over again because it's so good.

I do take issue with people being fragile about Rogue occationally saving Remy. It doesn't make him weak to be saved or helped by a woman (or any other teammate for that matter). That's normal for any fight - teammates help each other. She is exceptionally strong and also invulnerable. So of course she's going to help him out! Even the mighty Wolverine gets saved sometimes and shockingly by women.

That said, I think Gambit deserves a lot more credit and showing than what he's been getting lately. He should also be able to rescue Rogue sometimes and should be able to stand his ground in a fight most of the time and then some.

As for writers, just because they can't directly relate to a character's behavior or experience in their own life doesn't mean they can't imagine and empathize and put it in their writing. Most writers are not pychopathic killers, but they certainly can write them. I'd also wager that Gambit's best writers weren't themselves womanizers or thieves, but we can all appreciate what they did. I would not characterize all writers as wholesome nerds lacking in world experience either. I'd be hard pressed to classify an ex-CIA operative that way.

[Will Evans]

With krakoa housing a large population of known characters.

Which characters on the island are known thrives, besides Gambit and Storm?

I’d like to see Gambit interact with them. And maybe pull off a heist.

[AppleJ]

With krakoa housing a large population of known characters.

Which characters on the island are known thrives, besides Gambit and Storm?

I’d like to see Gambit interact with them. And maybe pull off a heist.

Well ... Fantomex and Lila Cheney, though Fanto's in la la land still and Lila seems busy with her music career.

[Will Evans]

Well ... Fantomex and Lila Cheney, though Fanto's in la la land still and Lila seems busy with her music career.

You reminded me that Remy and Lila were a couple in AoA.

[AppleJ]

You reminded me that Remy and Lila were a couple in AoA.

You're welcome? LOL

It was an interesting idea, at least in the context of that universe.