Mr. & Mrs. X: Gambit and Rogue Appreciation 2020

[Gripstir]

Well there's a lot to unpack there.

I mean since this is an appreciation thread for the relationship, this generally isn't the appropriate place to come to criticize it. Not that you have to like it or can't criticize it, just that this probably isn't the place since this is the place for fans of the couple. So I'll leave that be, other than to say I adore their relationship and think they do a lot for each other.

I can appreciate if you don't enjoy a more pessimistic tone or gloomy environment, though that's usually par for the course with a grittier landscape.

You definitely don't have to like the Mutant Massacre and can question the reasons it was written certainly, but you can't remove it from the character's continuity at this point. It happened. It has consequences for the character going forward. To ignore it would be strange. I absolutely hated the Blood of Apocalypse storyline, but it's part of his continuity. There's no reason you can't take from the emotional impact of these storylines to build a character up and give them motivation and growth going forward. Marjorie Liu's X-23 storyline was especially good with this. Remy's emotional/personal growth made him want to help Laura through her own difficulties. Early 90's Remy wouldn't have had these same insights and probably never would have stepped into this role. So from something I hated grew a story I will read over and over again because it's so good.

I do take issue with people being fragile about Rogue occationally saving Remy. It doesn't make him weak to be saved or helped by a woman (or any other teammate for that matter). That's normal for any fight - teammates help each other. She is exceptionally strong and also invulnerable. So of course she's going to help him out! Even the mighty Wolverine gets saved sometimes and shockingly by women.

That said, I think Gambit deserves a lot more credit and showing than what he's been getting lately. He should also be able to rescue Rogue sometimes and should be able to stand his ground in a fight most of the time and then some.

As for writers, just because they can't directly relate to a character's behavior or experience in their own life doesn't mean they can't imagine and empathize and put it in their writing. Most writers are not pychopathic killers, but they certainly can write them. I'd also wager that Gambit's best writers weren't themselves womanizers or thieves, but we can all appreciate what they did. I would not characterize all writers as wholesome nerds lacking in world experience either. I'd be hard pressed to classify an ex-CIA operative that way.

I'm a huge fan of their relationship. Their flirting and complexity was some of the most appealing things in comics for me for a long time. I'm a big fan of the couple (though originally I wanted Gambit with Jean).

I love gloomy but I like artistic gloomy not...gloomy gloomy. Using metaphors and creative use of colors and witty dialogue is literally right up my ally. My issue was I felt Tom King didn't add enough artistry to it. And the characterization so bothered me, in a lot of ways it's the same thing that bug me about Gambit/Rogue

I am not saying we should remove the mutant massacre. My issue is that Gambit has felt shaped so much by it. I'd actually say a way to address it would be to explore other horrible things Gambit has done. I hate that his entire psychology of guilt and shame seems to be traced to that incident. I want more complexity

And you are right I said in the gambit appreciation thread Marjorie Liu is probably my top Gambit writer for her work on X23 especially. I love how she made Gambit feel necessary, impactful, and indisposable to the comic. Gambit was only a support role but he was so competent and I loved that comic and that Gambit so much. I do think they could have added more of a Gambit flair to his comic but I loved that comic and his relationship with X23 was so natural so beautiful and never ever felt forced. With Rogue, especially with female writers lately, I find they write him to be their supportive boyfriend and not a character independent of Rogue.

With the Rogue saving him I get what you're saying but at the same time that's not my issue. I'm 100% ok with Gambit getting saved by Rogue many times over. My issue is when writers write Gambit/Rogue it genuinely feels like Gambit is Rogue's Robin not her equal. And this is more about their relationship. I've noticed especially how when female writers write Gambit they often write themselves as Rogue dating him. Like one of my biggest pet peeves about Mr and Mrs X was seeing Gambit in a sweater vest, holding a cat talking about binging Netflix. Like you can tell that was a self insert of a female perspective not something that makes Gambit more interesting. And Rogue always feels like the one in charge while Gambit just follows. I could write a dissertation on just this topic so I will stop by saying I think you can learn a lot about a writer from how they write their characters and I think people who can write Gambit/Rogue well don't self insert they try to find what makes Gambit interesting and what makes Rogue interesting and put them together. I just think Tom King would absolutely play into those tropes I hate because that's what he did with Bat and Cat.

[PeachFlavoredXanax]

With Rogue, especially with female writers lately, I find they write him to be their supportive boyfriend and not a character independent of Rogue.

With the Rogue saving him I get what you're saying but at the same time that's not my issue. I'm 100% ok with Gambit getting saved by Rogue many times over. My issue is when writers write Gambit/Rogue it genuinely feels like Gambit is Rogue's Robin not her equal. And this is more about their relationship. I've noticed especially how when female writers write Gambit they often write themselves as Rogue dating him. Like one of my biggest pet peeves about Mr and Mrs X was seeing Gambit in a sweater vest, holding a cat talking about binging Netflix. Like you can tell that was a self insert of a female perspective not something that makes Gambit more interesting. And Rogue always feels like the one in charge while Gambit just follows. I could write a dissertation on just this topic so I will stop by saying I think you can learn a lot about a writer from how they write their characters and I think people who can write Gambit/Rogue well don't self insert they try to find what makes Gambit interesting and what makes Rogue interesting and put them together. I just think Tom King would absolutely play into those tropes I hate because that's what he did with Bat and Cat.

Interesting. I can only speak as a specific female point of view (you know, mine) but I never had a problem with Gambit in a sweater vest watching Netflix. KT wasn’t the first, Marjorie Liu also wrote a scene in Astonishing with Gambit & Cecelia at his flat gearing to watch a movie and open a bottle of wine. Hell, Fab Niz wrote Gambit sitting on his couch catching up on Buffy. The dude watches tv. So, not sure why we’re going to clap at KT for something other writers have done.

You seem to focus on “self inserts” a lot. You mentioned in the last page that nerds can’t write Gambit because they lack game. Now women can’t write Gambit because he’s too domesticated. Frankly, I personally don’t mind this more grown up and patient Gambit. I’m exhausted of the dark brooding lone wolf ****. We should all hope to become better people from the complete messes we were in our 20s. Gambit had a **** go of it in his youth, having him enjoy a stable home environment and thriving in it makes sense to me. I love Gambit & Rogue’s playful nature. Most comic relationships tend to skew more in the male’s favor in which the female exists to be soft & patient allow them to go off the deep end in some comic storyline and take them back at the end. I enjoy Rogue & Gambit bucking that trend.

As a female, I never noticed the ‘wrongness’ I suppose but I have notice male writers write Rogue as a harpy and Gambit as the butt of every joke. KT has said that MMX was designed to be more of a romance skewed comic and I totally loved it for that. If I want to read about man-pain and female characters being fridged, I’ll pick up like basically any Other comicbook. Not every comicbook needs to be for the straight male. Sometimes us ladies want to be offered some stuff too that gears more into relationships than **** blowing up (which isn’t to say **** blowing up isn’t fucking cool too).

[AppleJ]

I'm a huge fan of their relationship. Their flirting and complexity was some of the most appealing things in comics for me for a long time. I'm a big fan of the couple (though originally I wanted Gambit with Jean).

I love gloomy but I like artistic gloomy not...gloomy gloomy. Using metaphors and creative use of colors and witty dialogue is literally right up my ally. My issue was I felt Tom King didn't add enough artistry to it. And the characterization so bothered me, in a lot of ways it's the same thing that bug me about Gambit/Rogue

I am not saying we should remove the mutant massacre. My issue is that Gambit has felt shaped so much by it. I'd actually say a way to address it would be to explore other horrible things Gambit has done. I hate that his entire psychology of guilt and shame seems to be traced to that incident. I want more complexity

And you are right I said in the gambit appreciation thread Marjorie Liu is probably my top Gambit writer for her work on X23 especially. I love how she made Gambit feel necessary, impactful, and indisposable to the comic. Gambit was only a support role but he was so competent and I loved that comic and that Gambit so much. I do think they could have added more of a Gambit flair to his comic but I loved that comic and his relationship with X23 was so natural so beautiful and never ever felt forced. With Rogue, especially with female writers lately, I find they write him to be their supportive boyfriend and not a character independent of Rogue.

With the Rogue saving him I get what you're saying but at the same time that's not my issue. I'm 100% ok with Gambit getting saved by Rogue many times over. My issue is when writers write Gambit/Rogue it genuinely feels like Gambit is Rogue's Robin not her equal. And this is more about their relationship. I've noticed especially how when female writers write Gambit they often write themselves as Rogue dating him. Like one of my biggest pet peeves about Mr and Mrs X was seeing Gambit in a sweater vest, holding a cat talking about binging Netflix. Like you can tell that was a self insert of a female perspective not something that makes Gambit more interesting. And Rogue always feels like the one in charge while Gambit just follows. I could write a dissertation on just this topic so I will stop by saying I think you can learn a lot about a writer from how they write their characters and I think people who can write Gambit/Rogue well don't self insert they try to find what makes Gambit interesting and what makes Rogue interesting and put them together. I just think Tom King would absolutely play into those tropes I hate because that's what he did with Bat and Cat.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from and I completely agree at least in regard to the Excalibur run. I don't feel like Gambit is equally treated to any of his teammates, although none of them has had especially good showings besides maybe Apocalypse and Rictor.

I've certainly experienced an imbalance from male writers toward female characters in some instances when it comes to them being treated as supportive or as only romantic interests. So even if I'm not interpreting these books that way I can at least empathize and understand your frustration if you do.

It's probably safe to say we have some different tastes and takes on Gambit as a character and that's okay.

For instance that bit in MMX you disliked, I found charming. Not because I perceived him as a suburban boyfriend, but to me it all called back to established continuity. There was an issue from 90s era Nicieza Gambit where he was bingeing Buffy episodes and several Harry Potter references are made in the Asmus run, so for me him watching Netflix completely tracks. His casual clothes have been all over the map and often pretty unfashionable if we're honest looking through the 90s and 2000s ... I remember a particularly awful red sweater from late Claremont era and another with a cartoon from one of the less great Gambit runs. But the guy wears pink, so I guess an orange sweater isn't a huge leap for me? It's certainly not a hill I'm going to die on. And the cats ... well he's had them all throughout the Liu run, the Asmus run, the ANXF run ... during which times he picks them up and even plays with them. So I don't see any of that as being out of synch with established characterization. I don't see those presentations as emasculating either. I know plenty of very manly men who like cats, sometimes wear sweaters, and enjoy relaxing with some TV after a long, hard day. For me, those things just add some personality to him and humanize him. I perceive him as a character who wears many faces and how he acts during one scenario could and frankly should differ greatly from another. How you act while hanging with your wife or a small group of intimate friends is going to be drastically different from how you act in scenarios with people you don't trust.

But again, you don't have to like that version of Gambit or those pieces of continuity that fed into it. I'm just saying they didn't come out of nowhere or from entirely female writers. But if those things and those books don't work for you and how you envision him, then they don't work for you and I can respect that. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes.

[Gripstir]

Interesting. I can only speak as a specific female point of view (you know, mine) but I never had a problem with Gambit in a sweater vest watching Netflix. KT wasn’t the first, Marjorie Liu always wrote a scene in Astonishing with Gambit & Cecelia at his flat gearing to watch a movie and open a bottle of wine. Hell, Fan Niz wrote Gambit sitting on his couch catching up on Buffy. The dude watches tv. So, not sure why we’re going to clap at KT for something other writers have done.

I'm happy you are giving your point of view. I do want to acknowledge I do recognize I do have biases of what i would like to see. And I do remember Fab making Gambit watch Buffy I always felt indifferent to it even though I myself am a big Buffy fan and kinda view Gambit a little like Spike/Angel combo. I just didn't think about it not that I loved or hated it. But the reason I say it's different for KT is the comic as a whole kinda enforces that Gambit as the supportive boyfriend role.

Gambit had a **** go of it in his youth, having him enjoy a stable home environment and thriving in it makes sense to me. I love Gambit & Rogue’s playful nature. Most comic relationships tend to skew more in the male’s favor in which the female exists to be soft & patient allow them to go off the deep end in some comic storyline and take them back at the end. I enjoy Rogue & Gambit bucking that trend.

I agree with some of that but I will say I do think there's s bit of male female bias here. Where I think we both want the character of our gender to be justttttt a tad bit more in the controlling side than the other. But I do really feel like Gambit has been reduced to just his comedic playful nature. Then his main thing is blow something up or say he doesn't trust someone. Gambit feels completely dispensable sometimes and you could literally switch him with a ton of other X-men and I wouldn't notice you switched them.

As a female, I never noticed the ‘wrongness’ I suppose but I have notice male writers write Rogue as a harpy and Gambit as the butt of every joke. KT has said that MMX was designed to be more of a romance skewed comic and I totally loved it for that. If I want to read about man-pain and female characters being fridged, I’ll pick up like basically any Other comicbook. Not every comicbook needs to be for the straight male. Sometimes us ladies want to be offered some stuff too that gears more into relationships than **** blowing up (which isn’t to say **** blowing up isn’t fucking cool too).

Perhaps that's why the MMX didn't speak to me it's more for the female gaze which I'm totally fine with. But at the same time I don't agree with the "every comic book needs to be for the straight male" because I don't think comics do cater to that and haven't for a long time. And I think Gambit especially has been a favorite for both women and straight men and yeah you can definitely see how every group tries to pull Gambit one way or another to fit what they think he should be. But I also think it's hard to use Gambit as a good example for straight males because they are always trying to write him for anything but the straight male. Trying to make him bi, trying to make him the emotionally supportive boyfriend, or the new writer who is writing him to be a young black woman who is most likely being created to replace Gambit in the near future most likely. I'm glad you have something I really do but I just happen to be someone who cares about the gambit character as well not just gambit/ rogue together. But like I said I acknowledge there's a biasness from each reader including myself in terms of what we want to see

[Gripstir]

I've certainly experienced an imbalance from male writers toward female characters in some instances when it comes to them being treated as supportive or as only romantic interests. So even if I'm not interpreting these books that way I can at least empathize and understand your frustration if you do.

It's probably safe to say we have some different tastes and takes on Gambit as a character and that's okay.

Yup I totally get it. Sometimes I think it's good, while sometimes say equality is the way I sometimes say equality is not the way sometimes it's just about picking a target audience and lean into them and create an identity. And as a guy I do want to see the coin flip to the male badassery at the expense of female characters, and I'm sure girls love seeing girls kick ass. Then there are times where two people teaming up is actually the best option (I think of Mr and Mrs Smith as a good example). I remember I used to watch Buffy and it was my favorite show ever. But towards the end of the show the male characters got thrown under the bus development wise and because more emotional support. The girls I talk to love the later seasons that did that and loved the female progression. But as a male viewer I was left kinda like oh another episode where the male character gets knocked out or taken hostage. That kind of writing can get boring and I see how females can hate seeing that for their favorite characters.

For instance that bit in MMX you disliked, I found charming. Not because I perceived him as a suburban boyfriend, but to me it all called back to established continuity. There was an issue from 90s era Nicieza Gambit where he was bingeing Buffy episodes and several Harry Potter references are made in the Asmus run, so for me him watching Netflix completely tracks. His casual clothes have been all over the map and often pretty unfashionable if we're honest looking through the 90s and 2000s ... I remember a particularly awful red sweater from late Claremont era and another with a cartoon from one of the less great Gambit runs. But the guy wears pink, so I guess an orange sweater isn't a huge leap for me? It's certainly not a hill I'm going to die on. And the cats ... well he's had them all throughout the Liu run, the Asmus run, the ANXF run ... during which times he picks them up and even plays with them. So I don't see any of that as being out of synch with established characterization. I don't see those presentations as emasculating either. I know plenty of very manly men who like cats, sometimes wear sweaters, and enjoy relaxing with some TV after a long, hard day. For me, those things just add some personality to him and humanize him. I perceive him as a character who wears many faces and how he acts during one scenario could and frankly should differ greatly from another. How you act while hanging with your wife or a small group of intimate friends is going to be drastically different from how you act in scenarios with people you don't trust.

I agree with a lot of this but my issue was not that he did wear that or had cats. It's the overall writing. I think if it existed in a vacuum like the other references fine. But that kind of tone bleeds into his overall character now. like you said in Excalibur he's a little underwritten. And I feel that's the problem. I don't feel Gambit has any level of toxicity to him anymore. He's more sarcastic than (no pun intended) roguish.

But again, you don't have to like that version of Gambit or those pieces of continuity that fed into it. I'm just saying they didn't come out of nowhere or from entirely female writers. But if those things and those books don't work for you and how you envision him, then they don't work for you and I can respect that. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes.

I want to be clear it wasn't fully about saying female writers. But I did have several in my head from recently who are writing him. I think every book Gambit is in currently is written by a female writer? Mr and Mrs. x Excalibur and children of the atom. So that's sort of why my mind went there because that's my latest experience with gambit mainly. But also should be reminded this all started because I was crapping on Tom King because I was afraid he would self insert into Gambit like he did with Batman

[Purplevit]

[AppleJ]

Love this cover!

[Sandmans_Raven]

Ha! That cover's great. There aren't too many Skottie Young variants that feature Gambit or Rogue, so I might have to hunt this down.

[anyajenkins]

Cute! Where is this from?

[Purplevit]

Cute! Where is this from?

Not sure. Maybe young commission or variant.

[Purplevit]

So free comic book X-men is today. Is Rogue even in this story?

[AppleJ]

So free comic book X-men is today. Is Rogue even in this story?

Trying to find this out too! Does anyone have non-spoiler spoilers to share?

Digital is my preferred format for numerous reasons, not the least of which being that running out to my LCS in the middle of a workday morning and the middle of a pandemic is hardly ideal. And if Rogue (or Gambit) don't show up, for me it's not worth the gas to do so as I have no other physical copies I'd want to pick up.

[Purplevit]

Gambit and Rogue are not there. I saw a lot of main scans on the net.

[AppleJ]

Gambit and Rogue are not there. I saw a lot of main scans on the net.

Same info from my Twitter mutual. No Romy. Another bust.

[uebersoldat]

Kelly Thompson where are you?