Mr. & Mrs. X: Gambit and Rogue Appreciation 2020

[AppleJ]

It's the same way Rogue's currently freaked out about having a baby, what with the Quiet Council's law, the vision she had, and her longstanding powers fears (to which a pregnancy is a big unknown). Maybe she'll get there with Remy's support, but Remy's probably learned not to make any more harbour speeches in the heat of the moment (not that he was wrong to make the harbour speech!). To push a stressed Rogue is to send her on a long-term road trip - at best! Take the smart option and get laid in a hot tub for now haha.

An option that should not be turned down ever!

But yeah, we've all been rounds and rounds on here about the pros and cons of the Legacy run. I definitely don't want to belabor it some more. At any rate, I very much doubt we'll see a change in writer real soon, Carey or otherwise. If we do, I'd expect a shift in the character cast as well.

Though I do wonder what we all consider the bounds of what is and what is not self-insertion in writing, because I see that accusation thrown around a lot. Sometimes it fits, other times I'm not so sure.

A self-insert is fairly obivious when an original character that shares all the traits of the writer is added to a story, but possibly trickier to determine for established characters. Is it seeing a major shift in their behavior/personality that seems idealized or favors the writer's viewpoint? To what degree should a writer draw upon their own experiences to inform a character? In some instances I have seen that make a story far better than it might have been. Like drawing upon your own experiences with loss to help write a character who lost their teammate for example.

But then there are some instances when a writer maybe can't draw upon personal experience - something fantastic like fighting a dragon or flying through the air or maybe a lifestyle they haven't had themselves like homelessness or being in a committed relationship. So then either imagination is required or doing research/asking others with experience.

[Lapsus]

It's funny you bring MJ up because her getting "powers" in Renew Your Vows was a major reason I was a big fan of that book.

I dont mind AU, but give permanent or long standing superpowers to a "normal" love interest, well, I always get the impression that the author doesnt now how to write the dynamics between them or is more lazy so it takes the easy route.

Is a challenge because He/She cant join them in a fight or in most adventures so you need to adapt to the narrative, at least for me.

[Jumpyshark]

An option that should not be turned down ever!

But yeah, we've all been rounds and rounds on here about the pros and cons of the Legacy run. I definitely don't want to belabor it some more. At any rate, I very much doubt we'll see a change in writer real soon, Carey or otherwise. If we do, I'd expect a shift in the character cast as well.

Though I do wonder what we all consider the bounds of what is and what is not self-insertion in writing, because I see that accusation thrown around a lot. Sometimes it fits, other times I'm not so sure.

A self-insert is fairly obivious when an original character that shares all the traits of the writer is added to a story, but possibly trickier to determine for established characters. Is it seeing a major shift in their behavior/personality that seems idealized or favors the writer's viewpoint? To what degree should a writer draw upon their own experiences to inform a character? In some instances I have seen that make a story far better than it might have been. Like drawing upon your own experiences with loss to help write a character who lost their teammate for example.

But then there are some instances when a writer maybe can't draw upon personal experience - something fantastic like fighting a dragon or flying through the air or maybe a lifestyle they haven't had themselves like homelessness or being in a committed relationship. So then either imagination is required or doing research/asking others with experience.

I'm not blind to why people think Carey might have used Magneto as a self-insert, but I really think it's a reductive take, which is why I wanted to go into some reasons why he might have used Magneto as he did as that's more interesting to me. (English Lit nerd, sorry - plus monthly comics are a fascinating medium to unpick with the various pressures of continuity, serialisation and time etc.) Moving past the Legacy can of worms, I totally agree that the self-insert accusation is thrown around on the X-board frequently, and I rarely agree. Most Marvel writers are passionate and/or professional at minimum, and while they may cling to certain "versions" of characters, to assume that Marvel writers don't have the craft to write a character differently from themselves is quite unlikely.

To take an example, the idea that Tini Howard doesn't have the perspective to write men also holds no weight with me, considering you'd be hard-pressed not to get male perspectives from media, politics, sports, entertainment etc, let alone one's own life. Until she writes about Gambit descending down the stairs dickfully, with his boxers clinging to his pert buttocks in coquettish fashion, as per myriad failed male writers writing women, we can safely assume that she's experienced various forms of masculinity and can reflect that as such. As ever, it's in the execution (and Gambit is a tricky character to write I would imagine! I hope that Howard gets the hang of him soon.), but I think that assuming the worst of writers when writing is, frankly, very hard, is unfair and not conducive to any interesting discussion.

[PeachFlavoredXanax]

Until she writes about Gambit descending down the stairs dickfully, with his boxers clinging to his pert buttocks in coquettish fashion, as per myriad failed male writers writing women, we can safely assume that she's experienced various forms of masculinity and can reflect that as such.

Pretty much this. (Also, wrong post to read while drinking). Writing Gambit as basically either angry or the perfect partner isn’t really radical feminism at work here. Gambit fully onboard to openly admit to Rogue having autonomy and respecting her autonomy is just being a decent human (well, I guess mutant but whatever).

If y’all want some more seriously awful examples of men writing women: https://www.reddit.com/r/menwritingwomen/

[Nox Noctes]

Sometimes good writers write questionable or controversial stories/characterizations and then get damned in the memories of a group of fans because of it (*cough*Carey*cough*). You can't please everyone, but I think a middle ground is achievable. Great writers find a way to get critical acclaim and please many fans/readers in some way (*cough*KT*cough*), but not necessarily everyone (and that's OK, we're all entitled to our opinions). I wonder, outside of Romy fans, are people actually enjoying Excalibur? Are we the main group disappointed with it? I had heard good things about Howard's previous work, so it was perplexing when I read Excalibur and liked nothing about it (well, I liked the art).

[Malachi]

I'm not blind to why people think Carey might have used Magneto as a self-insert, but I really think it's a reductive take, which is why I wanted to go into some reasons why he might have used Magneto as he did as that's more interesting to me. (English Lit nerd, sorry - plus monthly comics are a fascinating medium to unpick with the various pressures of continuity, serialisation and time etc.) Moving past the Legacy can of worms, I totally agree that the self-insert accusation is thrown around on the X-board frequently, and I rarely agree. Most Marvel writers are passionate and/or professional at minimum, and while they may cling to certain "versions" of characters, to assume that Marvel writers don't have the craft to write a character differently from themselves is quite unlikely.

To take an example, the idea that Tini Howard doesn't have the perspective to write men also holds no weight with me, considering you'd be hard-pressed not to get male perspectives from media, politics, sports, entertainment etc, let alone one's own life. Until she writes about Gambit descending down the stairs dickfully, with his boxers clinging to his pert buttocks in coquettish fashion, as per myriad failed male writers writing women, we can safely assume that she's experienced various forms of masculinity and can reflect that as such. As ever, it's in the execution (and Gambit is a tricky character to write I would imagine! I hope that Howard gets the hang of him soon.), but I think that assuming the worst of writers when writing is, frankly, very hard, is unfair and not conducive to any interesting discussion.

You are phrasing this much to black or white. It's not that Tini doesn't have the perspective to write any male or can't aquire on. It's that it's harder. Usually the further you deviate from yourself(or at least your own definition of yourself) the harder it is the write the character. Not only as in the motivation or speach pattern. But the ticks that make them work not only internally but even moreso what makes them work for other readers that enjoy them. The last example is mostly referencing to characters that you yourself don't really enjoy or see the appeal off, witch often is that they are different from yourself and what you enjoy. Often perhaps they remind you of some person or even character that did something unpleaseant. Maybe they even represent some part of you that you would like to be but can't for various reasons. Then you must try to understand why others like the character.
So for Tini even if she understands Gambit and could write him in a way that holds true to the character she clearly doesn't understand what makes readers enjoy him. Or she simply makes the active choice to not write him that way. Pick one, either doesn't fill me with hope.

Gambit has been the but of many jokes frow writers(less so from artists, they often say he's fun and inspiring to draw). Those jokes goes perfectly in hand with the accounts that have been told about how immature and narrowminded the business can be. Hopefully most of this should have been improved after MCU seeing the amount of money that has been introduced.

Many male writers who dislikes Gambit has written characters that are very un-Gambit =) The exception being Remender who instead used Fantomex for whatever reasons only he knows.

I know I have read interviews with writers saying that they sort of inserted themselves as characters into stories. One of the most thinly veiled one I can remember is Warren Ellis with Peter Wisdom. Witch doesn't in any way make Ellis a lesser writer. I really enjoy most of his production.

Gambit isn't tricky to write. It's pretty much an archtype. The trickster, the womanizer, the scoundrel with a heart. So in that regard he isn't tricky. It's just that most people aren't that person in real life. It takes a certain type of writer to want to write them and do so well. Often because it's so far from their own personality. More so it revolves around feeling of insecurity about your ability to write someone who is that smooth. Similar to trying to write a funny character who is percieved as funny when you don't consider yourself funny. Like writing about playing a instrument without understanding music(something P.Rothfuss did rather ecellently in Name of The Wind).

Heck every comicwriter should pick one character they don't see the appeal of or understand. Just to try their hardest of giving that character a fair representation. It will make them a better writer.

[remydat]

I'm obviously not gonna defend Rogneto to the hilt in this thread of all threads, but Rogue frequently ran headlong into the wrong option when freaked out, and Remy even acknowledges how Rogue figuring out her shit and being with Magneto is a sure-fire way for her to never again feel any magnetic attraction. In a book called Legacy, her going to Magneto after all that Joseph crap makes some sense too, I think? (Especially considering Joseph was dead at this point iirc.)

It's the same way Rogue's currently freaked out about having a baby, what with the Quiet Council's law, the vision she had, and her longstanding powers fears (to which a pregnancy is a big unknown). Maybe she'll get there with Remy's support, but Remy's probably learned not to make any more harbour speeches in the heat of the moment (not that he was wrong to make the harbour speech!). To push a stressed Rogue is to send her on a long-term road trip - at best! Take the smart option and get laid in a hot tub for now haha.

Except it wasn't Rogue freaking out. It was Rogue and Legacy freaking out and Rogue and Legacy told us they couldn't distinguish between the two right before banging Mags.

Probably more accurate to call it Roguenetogacy. But that was the main problem a lot of people had with it. Felt like Carey created that whole alternate reality and Legacy as a means to justify Legacy/Rogue being with Mags.

[spirit2011]

Ah my mistake.

And totally. I think it's just become apparent to me with Rogue because I do like her so much. I saw this on the DC side with Starfire as well

This really remembers me of Marv wolfman self-insert as the husband of Donna Troy. That was crazy obvious.
There is Morrison with Scott too, lots of male writers with the boyfriends of Kitty.

I think Duggan is more that he likes Rogue and wanted to pair her with a hero no named Gambit. Johnny went sideways because of Soule Inhumans and the Deadpool went south because of Thompson mini. If it went wrong with Johnny, duggan should had stopped there.

[AppleJ]

Sometimes good writers write questionable or controversial stories/characterizations and then get damned in the memories of a group of fans because of it (*cough*Carey*cough*). You can't please everyone, but I think a middle ground is achievable. Great writers find a way to get critical acclaim and please many fans/readers in some way (*cough*KT*cough*), but not necessarily everyone (and that's OK, we're all entitled to our opinions). I wonder, outside of Romy fans, are people actually enjoying Excalibur? Are we the main group disappointed with it? I had heard good things about Howard's previous work, so it was perplexing when I read Excalibur and liked nothing about it (well, I liked the art).

I was equally surprised to find Excalibur so uninspired and frustrating for me, truth be told. I'm usually more forgiving of less than perfect comics anyway and I have heard almost nothing but praise on X-Twitter for her work. Also she works closely with Leah and Vita, both writers I really have liked. You definitely can't please everyone though, so perhaps at the end of the day her style just isn't my cup of tea. I tried Strikeforce also, and didn't dislike it, but it didn't really grab me either. Usually a writer that truly appeals to me can win me over even with characters that don't particularly interest me.

The Excalibur spoiler threads seem fairly divided. It's not taking the same level of flack that we saw for X-Men:Gold or more recently for Fallen Angels. There are a few devotees for sure. But it hasn't been as positive as Twitter by a longshot.

[Muffinman]

Just letting everyone know if it wasn't stated already that the Rogue and Gambit Funko-pop figures are now available for pre order on Amazon! Wasn't sure if it was posted. Gambit looks amazing!

https://www.amazon.com/Funko-POP-Mar...0269963&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/Funko-POP-Mar...op+gamb&sr=8-1

Looks like they will be available may 2020

[Sparta]

Just letting everyone know if it wasn't stated already that the Rogue and Gambit Funko-pop figures are now available for pre order on Amazon! Wasn't sure if it was posted. Gambit looks amazing!

https://www.amazon.com/Funko-POP-Mar...0269963&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.com/Funko-POP-Mar...op+gamb&sr=8-1

Looks like they will be available may 2020

I just pre-ordered all 4 of them today. Here in Australia they're coming out in March 31. My local store does bring them out very early though, I got the Elektra and F4 pops earlier than the other stores as well.

[Sparta]

This really remembers me of Marv wolfman self-insert as the husband of Donna Troy. That was crazy obvious.
There is Morrison with Scott too, lots of male writers with the boyfriends of Kitty.

I think Duggan is more that he likes Rogue and wanted to pair her with a hero no named Gambit. Johnny went sideways because of Soule Inhumans and the Deadpool went south because of Thompson mini. If it went wrong with Johnny, duggan should had stopped there.

I think Zub was the one who tried to push Johnny and Rogue together, literally 2 issues after she made out with Deadpool.

[R0d]

To take an example, the idea that Tini Howard doesn't have the perspective to write men also holds no weight with me, considering you'd be hard-pressed not to get male perspectives from media, politics, sports, entertainment etc, let alone one's own life. Until she writes about Gambit descending down the stairs dickfully, with his boxers clinging to his pert buttocks in coquettish fashion, as per myriad failed male writers writing women, we can safely assume that she's experienced various forms of masculinity and can reflect that as such. As ever, it's in the execution (and Gambit is a tricky character to write I would imagine! I hope that Howard gets the hang of him soon.), but I think that assuming the worst of writers when writing is, frankly, very hard, is unfair and not conducive to any interesting discussion.

Pretty much this. (Also, wrong post to read while drinking). Writing Gambit as basically either angry or the perfect partner isn’t really radical feminism at work here. Gambit fully onboard to openly admit to Rogue having autonomy and respecting her autonomy is just being a decent human (well, I guess mutant but whatever).

If y’all want some more seriously awful examples of men writing women: https://www.reddit.com/r/menwritingwomen/

Sorry but Howard has written Gambit as how a cliché radical feminist would view the ideal husband: docile, with no agency, agrees with everything the wife says and his function in life is to be there to please the wife.
It's no different than how the women in the 50s were portrayed, you know the stay at home wives that waited the husband by the door with the dinner ready, a cold beer, a pair of slippers and a "tell me all about your day in the office honey", their entire existence revolved around the needs and wants of their husbands.
That's how Gambit has been portrayed so far in Excalibur he is the comic book equivalent of a wife from the 50s, with no personal agency, only concerned in the well being of his wife and any other desire or need he may have is completely irrelevant.
If it was bad then, when it was done to women it's also bad here when it's done to a man.

By the way, you can respect the autonomy of a woman and at the same time express your own opinions and feelings. Especially when we know from MMX that having kids is something that Gambit wants, we were shown what he wanted the most and that was a freaking baby, for crying out loud! But here he doesn't have the guts to say a word about it, his response was basically "Are you done? May I please you now with some sex?", completely pathetic, no backbone whatsoever.
Also, just because you say what you want doesn't mean you'll force what you want to the other person. It happened to my best friend, he dated a woman, things were going great but when the topic of kids came out she was clear that she didn't want to have any, he told her he wanted to have kids and that was the end for them. They simply parted ways, he didn't force her or anything by the way, but he didn't stay with her when it was clear that they wanted different things in life.

PS: I wouldn't even let Carey touch Gambit with a laser pointer form 100 meters away.

[R0d]

So for Tini even if she understands Gambit and could write him in a way that holds true to the character she clearly doesn't understand what makes readers enjoy him. Or she simply makes the active choice to not write him that way. Pick one, either doesn't fill me with hope.

Well put, you hit the nail on the head here!
After six issues it's clear she either doesn't have the ability to write him properly or she simply doesn't want to do so.

[juan678]

Captain Marvel The End

Irene Rogue and Gambit Child in 2051