Tom King Batman: Reread & Bat/Cat Appreciation 2020

[bob.schoonover]

Claire's participation, I think, should always be seen with the thought that even before she shows up the first time, she's been caught in Bane's plan, and quite possibly already influenced by Psycho Pirate. It's similar to my reading on Batman's behavior in I Am Gotham - he just put Catwoman in jail on death row, and doesn't understand why everything is going so wrong - so his morbid thoughts about death on the plane aren't "normal" - they're part of his feeling that the world is spiralling out of control - even more than usual for Batman.

I think it's obviously true that Bane was involved with her before I Am Gotham, sure. Let me make my quibble more clear.
1A: Claire was part and parcel to Bane's plan from the beginning.
1B: Claire was duped by Bane before I Am Gotham and did not mean for her parents (and many others) to be killed.

If it was 1A, there is no redemption in the story for Claire (so far). If it was 1B, then we have the following:
2A: Claire was cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.
2B: Claire was not cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.

If it was 2B, then Alfred failed most grievously and it's completely unaddressed and makes I Am Bane quite the failure overall for Bruce and Alfred. If it was 2A, then is The Price the reason Claire is with Bane in #50? Even though the resurrection of Gotham was never mentioned before or since?

Again, King may address it. I'm happy to treat this as an open problem/question rather than a storytelling failure, but I think it matters. She's a narrator, she gives Bruce the last push to propose to Selina, she's given a free pass at the end of #85.

[millernumber1]

I think it's obviously true that Bane was involved with her before I Am Gotham, sure. Let me make my quibble more clear.
1A: Claire was part and parcel to Bane's plan from the beginning.
1B: Claire was duped by Bane before I Am Gotham and did not mean for her parents (and many others) to be killed.

If it was 1A, there is no redemption in the story for Claire (so far). If it was 1B, then we have the following:
2A: Claire was cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.
2B: Claire was not cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.

If it was 2B, then Alfred failed most grievously and it's completely unaddressed and makes I Am Bane quite the failure overall for Bruce and Alfred. If it was 2A, then is The Price the reason Claire is with Bane in #50? Even though the resurrection of Gotham was never mentioned before or since?

Again, King may address it. I'm happy to treat this as an open problem/question rather than a storytelling failure, but I think it matters. She's a narrator, she gives Bruce the last push to propose to Selina, she's given a free pass at the end of #85.

I think 1B and 2B are true. I don't think it's a failure of Alfred's, because he didn't know that Psycho Pirate may have already brainwashed Claire before the attack Alfred and Batman know about during the events of I Am Suicide. Plus, Psycho Pirate probably "fixed" the apparent effects of what he did when he attacked Claire and Hank in Gotham, but planted deep triggers or something similar for her programming from when he first influenced her and she got her powers.

And that doesn't change the idea that maybe she was cured in I Am Bane, but Psycho Pirate got to her again. Bane clearly has enormous power to do things like that even from Arkham.

I don't really have an issue with it the way it's presented, because I assumed that from the beginning, she had Psycho Pirate's hooks, and the "curing" in I Am Bane was superficial, or even a Trojan Horse to slip more brain control underneath the facade of curing.

[gregpersons]

I think it's obviously true that Bane was involved with her before I Am Gotham, sure. Let me make my quibble more clear.
1A: Claire was part and parcel to Bane's plan from the beginning.
1B: Claire was duped by Bane before I Am Gotham and did not mean for her parents (and many others) to be killed.

If it was 1A, there is no redemption in the story for Claire (so far). If it was 1B, then we have the following:
2A: Claire was cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.
2B: Claire was not cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.

If it was 2B, then Alfred failed most grievously and it's completely unaddressed and makes I Am Bane quite the failure overall for Bruce and Alfred. If it was 2A, then is The Price the reason Claire is with Bane in #50? Even though the resurrection of Gotham was never mentioned before or since?

Again, King may address it. I'm happy to treat this as an open problem/question rather than a storytelling failure, but I think it matters. She's a narrator, she gives Bruce the last push to propose to Selina, she's given a free pass at the end of #85.

I think 1B and 2B are true. I don't think it's a failure of Alfred's, because he didn't know that Psycho Pirate may have already brainwashed Claire before the attack Alfred and Batman know about during the events of I Am Suicide. Plus, Psycho Pirate probably "fixed" the apparent effects of what he did when he attacked Claire and Hank in Gotham, but planted deep triggers or something similar for her programming from when he first influenced her and she got her powers.

And that doesn't change the idea that maybe she was cured in I Am Bane, but Psycho Pirate got to her again. Bane clearly has enormous power to do things like that even from Arkham.

I don't really have an issue with it the way it's presented, because I assumed that from the beginning, she had Psycho Pirate's hooks, and the "curing" in I Am Bane was superficial, or even a Trojan Horse to slip more brain control underneath the facade of curing.

This could be attributed to one of Bruce's blind spots — he's capable of having them (Cold Days makes this explicit but it's interesting to look for other examples in the other parts of the run) — rather than a failure by Alfred.

What motivation is given to Psycho Pirate to cure Claire from the effects he himself imposed on her? Alfred has a pistol pointed to Psycho Pirate's head. That's not exactly a better offer than the one he was getting from Bane, who is definitely more fearsome than Batman's valet. It reminds me of when Bane forces Riddler to crack the vault code... it's a brutish solution to a heady problem. "Here, you solve it, or I'll kill you"

Knowing what comes later, I think we can look at Claire as an example of Batman seeing what he wants to see and hearing what he wants to hear. Bane's plot is not dissimilar to Alan Moore's "What Do You Get For The Man Who Has Everything" and right now Batman's in the part where he has no idea that he's dreaming (unlike the flip side of Knightmares, which occurs about as close to the end as this does to the beginning).

[bob.schoonover]

While I think it's possible that Psycho Pirate may have had done some deep programming of Claire, I think you're both under-playing Alfred's abilities as a former spy, current superhero butler, and a keen observer. Psycho Pirate's powers are both powerful and very straightforward (unless they've been retconned or enhanced recently) - he can make Claire afraid, or angry, or happy, or envious, etc. I think getting one over on Alfred is harder than it seems.

I think I'll be chocking this up as one of those omniscient Bane things I dislike, frankly - PP and Bane manipulated Claire perfectly because the plot demanded she be thus manipulated.

[millernumber1]

While I think it's possible that Psycho Pirate may have had done some deep programming of Claire, I think you're both under-playing Alfred's abilities as a former spy, current superhero butler, and a keen observer. Psycho Pirate's powers are both powerful and very straightforward (unless they've been retconned or enhanced recently) - he can make Claire afraid, or angry, or happy, or envious, etc. I think getting one over on Alfred is harder than it seems.

I think I'll be chocking this up as one of those omniscient Bane things I dislike, frankly - PP and Bane manipulated Claire perfectly because the plot demanded she be thus manipulated.

That's totally fair. I just don't really have a problem with that specific part after reading the whole story.

[David Walton]

I think it's obviously true that Bane was involved with her before I Am Gotham, sure. Let me make my quibble more clear.
1A: Claire was part and parcel to Bane's plan from the beginning.
1B: Claire was duped by Bane before I Am Gotham and did not mean for her parents (and many others) to be killed.

If it was 1A, there is no redemption in the story for Claire (so far). If it was 1B, then we have the following:
2A: Claire was cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.
2B: Claire was not cured by Psycho Pirate during I Am Bane.

If it was 2B, then Alfred failed most grievously and it's completely unaddressed and makes I Am Bane quite the failure overall for Bruce and Alfred. If it was 2A, then is The Price the reason Claire is with Bane in #50? Even though the resurrection of Gotham was never mentioned before or since?

Again, King may address it. I'm happy to treat this as an open problem/question rather than a storytelling failure, but I think it matters. She's a narrator, she gives Bruce the last push to propose to Selina, she's given a free pass at the end of #85.

Just in general, I find "I Am Bane" to be the most problematic fit for the long term story arc. Not impossible, mind you, but it takes a no-prize effort or some looking away to make it work. It feels like there would have been much easier ways for Bane to get things to the point he needed them to be without relying on so many improbabilities.

As for Claire's involvement, I don't think she was in on it from the beginning, and was already somewhat fractured and easily manipulated. That first encounter with Psycho Pirate in "I Am Gotham" would certainly lose its impact if she was in on it being staged. Also keeping in mind that King's Riddler, Bane and Thomas Wayne are generally capable of understanding nearly every decision their opponents will make down to the letter. They tend to miss the one thing that gets them in the end but other than that they have a superhuman ability to put every chess piece in place.

[Chubistian]

The war of jokes and riddles:

With this last read, I realized that this storyline makes for a nice parallel with City of Bane. Maybe both could have benefited from having a few tie-ins to show more of the new status quo instead of so much happening behind the scenes, but when it's centered in the fundamental of the arc: Bruce's doubts and his fear that Selina will reject him plus how this event affected him so much that he kept his "sin" from his allies, the story flows pretty well and I think, though there was some original underwhelm when I first read it and noticed the individual fights between villains were almost an afterthought, that the innovations make for a much better story than a more action style story. The way even Bruce Wayne gets involved by doing a dinner with both sides was incredible and it's still one of my favorite ideas from this whole run. Mikel Janin does a pretty good job except when the 3D modeling gets noticed.

The Kite Man interludes are two of the strongest issues from this arc. I think it also shows how an important difference inks can do. Seth Mann was definitely the most suitable to make the most of his brother's pencils.

I'm not particularly fond at the idea of "Batman tried to kill a villain" because I've already seen similar scenarios, but I love that it's Joker who saves him from that mistake and that is how Joker finally regains his laugh. The detail of Selina making Bruce ask instead of command is perfect and shows a big difference in how their relationship works in constrast to how Bruce relates to the Robins or Alfred. Bruce's mistake doesn't matter and neither the difference between a riddle and a joke

[millernumber1]

War of Jokes and Riddles, as is well known, was originally supposed to be a 12 issue mini with Mitch Gerads. Didio and editorial made it part of the ongoing storyline, which cut it down to 8 issues and to Mikel Janin and Clay Mann. We get the lovely and structurally fun Ballad of Kite Man, a couple of fairly squished opening issues with a few good spreads, the really frustrating (to me) Deathstroke/Deadshot duel, then the quite solid conclusion, with the dinner party, the penultimate Kite Man assault, and the finale, with Catwoman's answer. As a whole, I find the story a bit underwhelming, though great notes like Batman remembering all those murdered in the war do shine through. However, the final issue, #32, is one of the best issues in the whole run. Yes, Batman trying to kill Riddler is a bit cliched. But the way Catwoman responds to it elevates it. "Who cares" is so multi-layered - it's initially a sign of "why does it even matter," but if you think harder, I think King and Selina are saying that "Who cares" as in, "Who is the specific person who cares for you, Bruce"? And the answer, of course, is Selina. She cares, and she says yes. Even after 50, with no happy end in sight, I treasured my copy of #32 (with the Coipel variant).

[Chubistian]

War of Jokes and Riddles, as is well known, was originally supposed to be a 12 issue mini with Mitch Gerads. Didio and editorial made it part of the ongoing storyline, which cut it down to 8 issues and to Mikel Janin and Clay Mann. We get the lovely and structurally fun Ballad of Kite Man, a couple of fairly squished opening issues with a few good spreads, the really frustrating (to me) Deathstroke/Deadshot duel, then the quite solid conclusion, with the dinner party, the penultimate Kite Man assault, and the finale, with Catwoman's answer. As a whole, I find the story a bit underwhelming, though great notes like Batman remembering all those murdered in the war do shine through. However, the final issue, #32, is one of the best issues in the whole run. Yes, Batman trying to kill Riddler is a bit cliched. But the way Catwoman responds to it elevates it. "Who cares" is so multi-layered - it's initially a sign of "why does it even matter," but if you think harder, I think King and Selina are saying that "Who cares" as in, "Who is the specific person who cares for you, Bruce"? And the answer, of course, is Selina. She cares, and she says yes. Even after 50, with no happy end in sight, I treasured my copy of #32 (with the Coipel variant).

That's a great twist to the "who cares" line, I hadn't thought of that! You're right about the original plan for the story, I had totally forgot about it

[David Walton]

War of Jokes and Riddles, as is well known, was originally supposed to be a 12 issue mini with Mitch Gerads. Didio and editorial made it part of the ongoing storyline, which cut it down to 8 issues and to Mikel Janin and Clay Mann. We get the lovely and structurally fun Ballad of Kite Man, a couple of fairly squished opening issues with a few good spreads, the really frustrating (to me) Deathstroke/Deadshot duel, then the quite solid conclusion, with the dinner party, the penultimate Kite Man assault, and the finale, with Catwoman's answer. As a whole, I find the story a bit underwhelming, though great notes like Batman remembering all those murdered in the war do shine through. However, the final issue, #32, is one of the best issues in the whole run. Yes, Batman trying to kill Riddler is a bit cliched. But the way Catwoman responds to it elevates it. "Who cares" is so multi-layered - it's initially a sign of "why does it even matter," but if you think harder, I think King and Selina are saying that "Who cares" as in, "Who is the specific person who cares for you, Bruce"? And the answer, of course, is Selina. She cares, and she says yes. Even after 50, with no happy end in sight, I treasured my copy of #32 (with the Coipel variant).

I think "The War of Jokes and Riddles" is one of the most innovative things to come out of DC in the past decade, owing in no small part to its being folded into the Catwoman story in the present day. I think its impact comes from Bruce feeling as though he has to confess what really happened to Selina before she can decide if he's worthy of her love, and Selina's response (as you've outlined). Wouldn't have had the stinger at the end if it was a mini set in the past. And if it wasn't for Selina consoling Bruce, it would be a complete loss for Batman.

Part of the story's appeal is that it gets into how things can spiral out of control when Batman's methods are employed, and yet it doesn't condemn Bruce for doing so. It's not clear that there's an alternative; he's caught in a situation he didn't create and his actions probably save as many lives as can be saved in spite of him ultimately being manipulated by Riddler.

[millernumber1]

I think "The War of Jokes and Riddles" is one of the most innovative things to come out of DC in the past decade, owing in no small part to its being folded into the Catwoman story in the present day. I think its impact comes from Bruce feeling as though he has to confess what really happened to Selina before she can decide if he's worthy of her love, and Selina's response (as you've outlined). Wouldn't have had the stinger at the end if it was a mini set in the past. And if it wasn't for Selina consoling Bruce, it would be a complete loss for Batman.

Part of the story's appeal is that it gets into how things can spiral out of control when Batman's methods are employed, and yet it doesn't condemn Bruce for doing so. It's not clear that there's an alternative; he's caught in a situation he didn't create and his actions probably save as many lives as can be saved in spite of him ultimately being manipulated by Riddler.

It is very true that I think if Selina had just said "yes" in 24 or 25, it would have lost the impact of Bruce feeling really despairing, and Selina lifting him up. I do still think a lot of the early stuff was weak because of the compression, but once he found his structural techniques he wanted to try out, it started working again.

I really like what you're saying about Batman perhaps not being able to help, but still trying his best, and that it's not his fault. Compared to a couple of specific comics I've read from DC lately which take the "Batman is ineffective and stupid" argument and appear to give it weight and credence, I think King's approach that "Batman is a job - a hard one, one that often fails, but one that saves lives and is good" is much preferable.

[gregpersons]

I love War of Jokes and Riddles for all of the reasons already stated. Also and especially the issue of Bruce's dinner party is another comedy highlight in the run. Great punchline at the end about why mother wouldn't be pleased.

Batman's emotional reasoning for why he wants to tell this story at this point tells us a lot about his view of marriage. "Marry me" for him is saying "save me." And then more respectfully "Will you save me?" Batman has long assumed he doesn't deserve saving. He carries around a ton of shame constantly -- Batman itself is a disguise to mask his shame as much as anything else. He's never been good at asking for help -- with practical matters and especially with spiritual matters -- so his laying down his greatest shame is basically being like, you don't HAVE to save me, and this is why I feel undeserving.

Selina's response is perfect. He's being an emo bastard and there's no shortage of things to brood about for both of them. Hmm, in thinking of Bruce's greatest shame, I kinda wish there was some acknowledgment that all of the Robins have died at one point, and that's a huge shame he carries as well, and an anxiety he has about taking a partner. This is expressed in I Am Bane and later in the run, but I think it could've been worth acknowledging that again in some way in this context to Selina. I think her response would've been largely the same. In any case, I'd be curious to see Bruce reflecting on each of the Robins deaths and resurrections in this type of scene where he's talking with Selina.

It's literally navel gaze storytelling about the redemption or damnation of the soul, framed as big comic book "war" event between a bunch of major IP characters. I love it

[gregpersons]

edit - oops double post

[millernumber1]

I love War of Jokes and Riddles for all of the reasons already stated. Also and especially the issue of Bruce's dinner party is another comedy highlight in the run. Great punchline at the end about why mother wouldn't be pleased.

Batman's emotional reasoning for why he wants to tell this story at this point tells us a lot about his view of marriage. "Marry me" for him is saying "save me." And then more respectfully "Will you save me?" Batman has long assumed he doesn't deserve saving. He carries around a ton of shame constantly -- Batman itself is a disguise to mask his shame as much as anything else. He's never been good at asking for help -- with practical matters and especially with spiritual matters -- so his laying down his greatest shame is basically being like, you don't HAVE to save me, and this is why I feel undeserving.

Selina's response is perfect. He's being an emo bastard and there's no shortage of things to brood about for both of them. Hmm, in thinking of Bruce's greatest shame, I kinda wish there was some acknowledgment that all of the Robins have died at one point, and that's a huge shame he carries as well, and an anxiety he has about taking a partner. This is expressed in I Am Bane and later in the run, but I think it could've been worth acknowledging that again in some way in this context to Selina. I think her response would've been largely the same. In any case, I'd be curious to see Bruce reflecting on each of the Robins deaths and resurrections in this type of scene where he's talking with Selina.

It's literally navel gaze storytelling about the redemption or damnation of the soul, framed as big comic book "war" event between a bunch of major IP characters. I love it

The dinner party is the first issue of WoJaR really came alive to me. I love King's structural devices - they highlight the emotions, to me.

And excellent point about "marry me" being almost a cry to "save me". I love the King makes Bruce's frozen development so real and powerful, so that I want him to be saved, too.

[millernumber1]

So, this week's reread section is: Rules of Engagement, First Dates Last Rites, Superfriends A (33-37, Annual #2)

We get the first Joelle Jones art, the amazing Annual #2 by Weeks and Lark, and the delightful Batman and Superman double date arc with Mann art!

I have to admit, I dislike the first two issues of Rules of Engagement in terms of Bat/Cat interaction. Selina being overly eager to make Bruce feel bad, and Bruce not knowing how to handle it and just saying "You're beautiful" was really cliched and bad sitcom writing, to me. But the last issue, even though I think Jones struggles with fight choreography/geography, was beautiful (and the 800th issue! Which is why I bought it, even though I wasn't pulling Batman at the time).

The Annual, of course, is a landmark beautiful issue, with the rooftop "why" just hitting you in the gut. And the double date is cute as all get out, and Superman and Batman telling Lois and Selina why they feel the other man is better is so moving to me.