Tom King Batman: Reread & Bat/Cat Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

Thank for bringing the interview to this thread. Great questions and amazing answers. I must admit, I'm a little hurt after reading that bit about the Nain Pit. So many stories that never see the light. I knew that Tom King had other idea about which path Nightwing should follow after being shot, but I didn't know what he had in plan. Another storyline that I wish could have been done

The Nain Pit I am kinda bummed about, but given what he says here, I am less bummed than I am about Nightwing. Either healing him in 2 issues, or having Tim take on the role of Nightwing as he helps Dick heal would have been not just better than what we have suffered through for over a year, but I think a REALLY good story.

[lilyrose]

Thank you for the interview! I can't believe we will have ended up having to wait over a year after Bat/Cat was announced before we even see any of it. Let's just hope it's not two.

[millernumber1]

Thank you for the interview! I can't believe we will have ended up having to wait over a year after Bat/Cat was announced before we even see any of it. Let's just hope it's not two.

Well, if he's on issue 5, I think we're probably looking at at least another three months.

[Kurisu]

“They went in a different direction.”

lol

[millernumber1]

“They went in a different direction.”

lol

A bad direction. Sigh.

The two issue healing arc would have been FINE. And the Tim arc wouldn't just have been better than what we got, it would have been REALLY good!

[bob.schoonover]

1) What issue do you think is more representative of King’s run on Batman? Is it Tec 1000, with its statement of Batman’s family? Or Annual #4, with its thesis about Batman working every day to make the world a better place? Or Annual #2, with its focus on the love between Batman and Catwoman? Or Annual #1, with the emphasis on the love of family through Alfred and Ace? The Brave and the Mold, because of its focus on the death of fathers and what we do when we’re still here? The end of I Am Bane because of the conversation between Batman and his mother, ending with “I’m still here”? #85, the end of all things, because it ties it all together?

2) What is your favorite half (counting 50 as the halfway mark, even though it isn’t), arc (longer than two issues), and single issue of the run? Is your favorite single issue the same as your answer for #1?

Thank you all, so much, for participating! I have some ideas of what to do next, but will wait till closer to next Wednesday to propose them!

I don't have much to say about #1000. It's a nice story that I enjoyed, but it's centered on a version of the Bat family that fundamentally hasn't existed since Flashpoint so it's kind of . . . off to me. When one thinks about the seams in the last 15 issues of King's run (more or less where whatever happened happened and we weren't going to 105 anymore), I think one thing that got lost was earning the Bat-family appearances in Fall and the Fallen and City of Bane. Barbara and Helena were never in the run until issue 71, I think, Kate the same (at least she was teaming up w/him in 'Tec). Tim and Jason were only around for a few moments (to be hanged in IAB, to react to the engagement). Not a huge nitpick or anything, but when I buy the (eventual but still hypothetical) Batman by Tom King Omnibus volume 3, this story won't really fit in with everything before it. C'est la vie.

As to the questions:
Representative issue: Probably Annual #2 - King is clearly saying a lot of things with his run, but the Bat/Cat relationship is the part that sticks with me the most, and is certainly the part that will be at the forefront of the next series. As a side note, it was super important to publish this story before #50 (and even the lead up to 50) to tell everyone to relax, they'll get back together.

You didn't ask, but the first Master Bruce issue is the least representative issue. I have so little regard for that character - I can't decide if I want him ignored or for King to bring him back in Bat/Cat to try to salvage him (or at least explicate the theme he was going for)

Favorite half: I'd actually cut it more in half and say 1-43 (thru Ivy) would be my favored half. 44-49 are all about setting up Selina's turn in 50, then everything after is the fallout of Bane's plan, so I think that grouping is fair enough. Anyway, I prefer the first half as it's got more interesting Bat-family interactions (King writes them so well). With Selina, obviously, in I Am Suicide, Rooftops, and I Am Bane, with the Robins in Bane and Rules of Engagement, with Duke in I Am Gotham, with Clark and Diana in Superfriends - they're all so perfectly written and fun to read (and their lack definitely affects the level of frivolity in the back half - the single most humorous part of the back half is Damian magic-ing Gotham Girl out of commission and there's a huge gap between it and second place). The back half is certainly more powerful, but in terms of "favorite" I'll take that to mean the half I'm more likely to re-read, and I'll re-read Annual 2, Superfriends, I Am Suicide, War of Jokes and Riddles, etc., a lot more than I'll re-read Knightmares, Tyrant's Wing, etc.

[millernumber1]

I don't have much to say about #1000. It's a nice story that I enjoyed, but it's centered on a version of the Bat family that fundamentally hasn't existed since Flashpoint so it's kind of . . . off to me. When one thinks about the seams in the last 15 issues of King's run (more or less where whatever happened happened and we weren't going to 105 anymore), I think one thing that got lost was earning the Bat-family appearances in Fall and the Fallen and City of Bane. Barbara and Helena were never in the run until issue 71, I think, Kate the same (at least she was teaming up w/him in 'Tec). Tim and Jason were only around for a few moments (to be hanged in IAB, to react to the engagement). Not a huge nitpick or anything, but when I buy the (eventual but still hypothetical) Batman by Tom King Omnibus volume 3, this story won't really fit in with everything before it. C'est la vie.

As to the questions:
Representative issue: Probably Annual #2 - King is clearly saying a lot of things with his run, but the Bat/Cat relationship is the part that sticks with me the most, and is certainly the part that will be at the forefront of the next series. As a side note, it was super important to publish this story before #50 (and even the lead up to 50) to tell everyone to relax, they'll get back together.

You didn't ask, but the first Master Bruce issue is the least representative issue. I have so little regard for that character - I can't decide if I want him ignored or for King to bring him back in Bat/Cat to try to salvage him (or at least explicate the theme he was going for)

Favorite half: I'd actually cut it more in half and say 1-43 (thru Ivy) would be my favored half. 44-49 are all about setting up Selina's turn in 50, then everything after is the fallout of Bane's plan, so I think that grouping is fair enough. Anyway, I prefer the first half as it's got more interesting Bat-family interactions (King writes them so well). With Selina, obviously, in I Am Suicide, Rooftops, and I Am Bane, with the Robins in Bane and Rules of Engagement, with Duke in I Am Gotham, with Clark and Diana in Superfriends - they're all so perfectly written and fun to read (and their lack definitely affects the level of frivolity in the back half - the single most humorous part of the back half is Damian magic-ing Gotham Girl out of commission and there's a huge gap between it and second place). The back half is certainly more powerful, but in terms of "favorite" I'll take that to mean the half I'm more likely to re-read, and I'll re-read Annual 2, Superfriends, I Am Suicide, War of Jokes and Riddles, etc., a lot more than I'll re-read Knightmares, Tyrant's Wing, etc.

Yeah. I agree that Tec 1000 doesn't really "fit" - but I like it as the "goal" of King's run. And these anthology stories aren't usually supposed to really "fit" anyway - more provide celebration and meta, and a few minutes of fun.

A lot of Annual #2 in this thread! I'm glad.

That's a good point about a more equal "half" - though I think the Wedding is so clearly a midpoint it's hard to find anything close to as pivotal. And I definitely still reread the last stuff more than the first stuff. Knightmares, Cold Days. It's all just so powerful to me.

[bob.schoonover]

I really like King's story in 1000 as a story - it might be my favorite thing in the whole celebration issue - but I find it hilarious to think of it as aspirational when it's choices the Bat-office keeps making to make the Bat-family antagonistic rather than collaborative. Going back to King's comments about what he wanted to do with Nightwing after KGBeast shot him - Tim and Dick working together would have been a lot of fun. It'd have been in keeping with the history of the Robin mantle and parallel how Tim tried to get Dick back in the costume to save Batman during Lonely Place of Dying. And the Bat-office decided to go with Ric. Yikes.

Yeah, I think the Wedding is the midpoint from an outline perspective, especially since King intended to go to 105, but I think the tone of the Bat/Cat relationship changes fundamentally with The Dress. They're a happy couple going out with Clark and Lois, stopping crimes, beating up mind-controlled friends, then Selina starts to have doubts, then Booster enhances those doubts, then Joker and Holly have talks with her to make firm her doubts. Her decision in 50 is a consequence not of all that came before, but just those 6 issues that came before. Breaking the story into big chunks, I'd argue that the foreshadowing in that sequence is more of a tone with Cold Days, KGB, Tyrant's Wing than with Superfriends, Rules of Engagement, or even War of Jokes and Riddles. Obviously, one can disagree about the break point - that's just how I see it when I look back. Somewhat related, it'll be interesting to see where DC decides to make a break for the purposes of omnibus collections.

[millernumber1]

Somewhat related, it'll be interesting to see where DC decides to make a break for the purposes of omnibus collections.

Do you think they're going to do more than just the Deluxe editions?

(and yes, DC editorial is very frustrating sometimes)

[bob.schoonover]

Do you think they're going to do more than just the Deluxe editions?

(and yes, DC editorial is very frustrating sometimes)

Absolutely I do. It'll be 3-4 years, but the Morrison and Snyder ones sold pretty well. Well, presuming comics still exist then

[millernumber1]

Absolutely I do. It'll be 3-4 years, but the Morrison and Snyder ones sold pretty well. Well, presuming comics still exist then

Hmm. I hope so.

Comics will exist. DC Comics will exist. They will probably look a lot different. But I don't see Batman going away. Thankfully! I love Batman!

[bob.schoonover]

Hmm. I hope so.

Comics will exist. DC Comics will exist. They will probably look a lot different. But I don't see Batman going away. Thankfully! I love Batman!

That was mostly tongue in cheek, but I do hope enough comic shops survive that physical comics still are fruitful for DC. As an avowed Morrison fan, I assure you, I am aware that Batman and Robin will never die!

[millernumber1]

That was mostly tongue in cheek, but I do hope enough comic shops survive that physical comics still are fruitful for DC. As an avowed Morrison fan, I assure you, I am aware that Batman and Robin will never die!

As a Tynion fan myself, I am assured that Batman is Eternal

And if we are all the Schumacher fans we should be, we'd know that Batman is Forever.

[Scott Taylor]

And if we are all the Schumacher fans we should be, we'd know that Batman is Forever.

Hah! Every time I drive by my LCS, it makes me sad. I've been doing so much re-reading of comics.

[millernumber1]

Hah! Every time I drive by my LCS, it makes me sad. I've been doing so much re-reading of comics.

I mean, I'm doing this reread (and I'm suggesting another one tomorrow), my Stephanie Brown Batgirl reread in her appreciation thread/discord/twitter/reddit, and another book club in another discord server.

Use the time we have!

I've been really pleased with this Tom King reread - it was the template I'm using for the others. And that's thanks to all of you who joined me!