Tom King Batman: Reread & Bat/Cat Appreciation 2020

[millernumber1]

I don't buy any of these explanations. More and more, I feel like they were all cover for King's Batman fans like us and cover for King too from the embarrassment of being fired early from a pre-announced run.

King is a prolific writer and he's got so many projects going at once that I don't believe he couldn't have written 15 more issues. I also believe that he very much wanted to complete his story. (Batman/Catwoman is not a finish to his story; it's a meditation on the Bat/Cat relationship. It's not even in continuity. It's throwing fans like us a bone.)

But I get that the sales for their flagship title were down. I get why they did what they did.

My real frustration lies in the fact that, instead of getting that far along and not finishing the story, we got this purely mediocre run by Tynion.

Don't get me wrong. I like Tynion's writing a lot and I thought his Detective run was fantastic, but his run on Batman, while fine, is no great shakes and it doesn't at all justify kicking King off a title he was 85 issues into and had only 15 more to go. How much money did we each invest over 85 issues only to be robbed of the ending King had been heading toward for all that time?

And boy was that a terrible and terribly underwritten breakup between Batman and Catwoman in the last issue. This let's break up and revisit things in a year was so forced and so out of character with all that had come before, over the last 4+ years. It was that 1-2 page scene that led me back into this forum after months away and to search for this thread so I could vent my spleen about it.

I think you're right that King could definitely have done 100 issues (or 105 or 7 or however many he decided). I also think that, despite my own belief that sales were not down as much as people claimed (because of the confusingly reported cardstock variants), and my belief that double shipping always loses more readers for long runs than single shipping, that it was a combination of two factors:

1) Sales were down from the "expected" 100,000 units sold for Batman (My belief is that they were still in the 80,000 range).

2) King himself was really tired of editorial interference. Starting, of course, with Ric being the biggest example - for which he took an enormous amount of flak, despite having no responsibility for DC deciding to keep what he never intended to be permanent - but you can go back before that, with War of Jokes and Riddles being moved from a separate 12 issue miniseries with Gerads to being in the main title, twice a month, with four fewer issues, and Janin, who he loves, but is a completely different artist than the one he originally conceived the idea for. Everything after Knightmares was clearly rewritten multiple times to deal with editorial demands, and there was The Price crossover that clearly did nothing to improve the reception of Knightmares.

Now, I think Tynion's Batman run is actually pretty fun. I dropped off in the middle of Their Dark Designs, but I jumped back on with #94, and enjoyed Joker War (largely because of issue #98, Jimenez's stunning artwork, and the status quo shifts in the Batfamily that Tynion is clearly pushing that I like a lot with the Batgirls). I'm hoping that since he's clearly on for the long term, Tynion will be able to have a freer approach, similar to his excellent Detective Comics run. Tynion's Tec actually is comparable to King's Batman in terms of dearness to my heart - but his Batman run is just "fun" for me. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I am disappointed in the "year apart," but I personally don't think it will be a breakup, as Tynion has gone out of his way to emphasize Bat/Cat's love for each other all throughout the run.

I am glad you're back, though, and I hope you stick around for Batman/Catwoman in December! I'm personally incredibly excited about it!

I have to say too that I found City of Bane to be obviously truncated and, as a result, the absolute worst arc of the run. You could just feel him trying to cram in an ending, any ending, to make sense of ending his run. After all that, Batman punches out Flashpoint Batman and Bane and things are okay again?

Moreover, I think we all know by now that Alfred's death was never meant to stick. He was going to be Clayface or some other explanation. King, in his last few issues, had not planned for Alfred's death so he had to fit that in too at the last minute. And it was DC that left him holding the bag that way in the last few issues because they hadn't planned for Alfred to die either. They decided to cram that in based off of fan response.

I have a good friend who, during the pandemic, has returned after a long time to reading comics and has asked me for recommendations. I've been lending him my Deluxe volumes though the final one(s) isn't out yet. He is utterly in love with this run and, in the course of telling me that recently and freaking out about everything he loves about it, said "This is so great that I'm worried he won't stick the landing. Please tell me he does."

What was I supposed to say to that? I know his tastes and I know how disappointed he'll be about all the threads that were just dropped in favor of a real rush-job. I just told him he should finish the run and tell me what he thinks of it. And I know I'm going to have to give him the same excuse that DC gave us: well, at least there's a 12 issue series of Batman/Catwoman coming out soon.

Heavy, heavy sigh.

In our reread earlier this year, I did find City of Bane had one major thing that really twisted it in my heart - the clear destruction of King's plan with the death of Alfred. With the revelation that Didio literally called King AFTER the issue was released in stores to tell him that Alfred's death had to stay, it explains the complete lack of preparation and feeling of lopsidedness that the death creates. Didio personally literally destroyed King's story with that phone call, and I'm very upset about it. (The explanation, as King revealed in this interview: https://youtu.be/jqA5OhFCWNU?t=1107 - is that Damian was going to be under Scarecrow gas, and Alfred's death was his biggest fear.)

That being said, I think that King did a masterful job of trying to write a satisfying ending with that swerve in the MIDDLE of already having planned his ending. I would argue that he DOES stick the ending - not perhaps as well as we'd have liked - definitely not as well as I would have liked, based on my love for issue #32, Cold Days, Knightmares, and The Beach - but issue #85 does work, in the end.

And honestly, given how DC screwed over Morrison for his Batman Inc plans, Tynion in his Tec plans, and so many other writers in Nightwing, Batgirl, Batgirl, Batgirl (did I mention Batgirl?), the fact that we got what we did, and we're getting Bat/Cat in the format King does much better than an ongoing run, the 12 issue miniseries, is pretty exciting for me. Much as I adore this run of Batman, I think King is simply much better at a more limited space, where he's able to control the details and ideas and threads without having to control 100 issues all together.

I very much hope that your friend will like the ending at least as much as I did, and that he'll be able to read the Catwoman 80th Anniversary short story as an exciting tease for what's to come in December.

It makes me so angry.

Tynion's run is terrible. Generic, boring, unoriginal, unmemorable. And why on earth do they even need to break up Batman and Catwoman? There's NO reason for that. None.

Well. I hope that this thread doesn't become consumed with negativity towards Tynion's run. I started this thread two years ago because I wanted a place of celebration and happiness about King's run, and I think we still have a lot to enjoy.

[sifighter]

So this is clearly Helena and Damian right? I hope so, besides New 52 with Earth 2 Helena, I honestly would like to see a story with Damian and his little sister Helena.

El3GdfZXUAEbFzN.jpg

Directly from Clay Mann's own twitter account

https://twitter.com/Clay_Mann_/statu...32088134180864

[millernumber1]

So this is clearly Helena and Damian right?

El3GdfZXUAEbFzN.jpg

Directly from Clay Mann's own twitter account

https://twitter.com/Clay_Mann_/statu...32088134180864

Oooh, wow, that's a really awesome pic! Thanks for sharing! I have no clue - I think Helena and Damian make sense, but it could be...so many!

[Shadowcat]

I’d love to join in. I’m starting at the beginning of the Rebirth Bat era, including King’s run, Tec, Nightwing, Babsgirl, BoP, Harley, etc. What would everyone consider a Bat related title? Like, should I also read Titans, Teen Titans, and Deathstrike?

Thanks for the help.

[millernumber1]

I’d love to join in. I’m starting at the beginning of the Rebirth Bat era, including King’s run, Tec, Nightwing, Babsgirl, BoP, Harley, etc. What would everyone consider a Bat related title? Like, should I also read Titans, Teen Titans, and Deathstrike?

Thanks for the help.

Titans and Teen Titans are definitely Bat-related, since they have Dick Grayson and Damian in them. So is Red Hood and the Outlaws. Later on, there's Batman and the Outsiders, and Young Justice.

[Shadowcat]

Titans and Teen Titans are definitely Bat-related, since they have Dick Grayson and Damian in them. So is Red Hood and the Outlaws. Later on, there's Batman and the Outsiders, and Young Justice.

Red Hood is definitely on my list of books to pick up, thanks for the recommendations of the others. I started on Rebirth right when City of Bane began, so I decided to go back to the beginning.

[millernumber1]

Red Hood is definitely on my list of books to pick up, thanks for the recommendations of the others. I started on Rebirth right when City of Bane began, so I decided to go back to the beginning.

Very cool! I'm probably going to try to do a quick read through of King's run before Bat/Cat next month

[Shadowcat]

I did it! First 25 issues of Red Hood ordered!

Please no spoilers, but is Huntress in any of Bat books, besides BoP?

[Shadowcat]

Does Lincoln March show up in any of the bat books after Rebirth began?

[millernumber1]

I did it! First 25 issues of Red Hood ordered!

Please no spoilers, but is Huntress in any of Bat books, besides BoP?

Huntress is in Batman a very little bit, and has a slightly bigger part in Nightwing. She also was in the final arc of Hellblazer.

Does Lincoln March show up in any of the bat books after Rebirth began?

Lincoln was recently in Detective Comics in the prologue to Joker War.

[Shadowcat]

Huntress is in Batman a very little bit, and has a slightly bigger part in Nightwing. She also was in the final arc of Hellblazer.



Lincoln was recently in Detective Comics in the prologue to Joker War.

Thanks so much!

[Hilden B. Lade]

https://ew.com/books/tom-king-batman-catwoman-preview/?

New feature/interview with King and Mann. Turns out Mann's the one who pushed to get Phantasm in the book!

[Shadowcat]

https://ew.com/books/tom-king-batman-catwoman-preview/?

New feature/interview with King and Mann. Turns out Mann's the one who pushed to get Phantasm in the book!

I honestly can’t wait til I get to Bat/Cat. I’m really loving almost every Rebirth bat book so far. (I haven’t bought Batgirl or Batwoman yet tho).

[sifighter]

https://ew.com/books/tom-king-batman-catwoman-preview/?

New feature/interview with King and Mann. Turns out Mann's the one who pushed to get Phantasm in the book!

I'm definitely interested in what Tom King can do now that he's relatively free of restraint, I mean obviously he cannot do whatever he wants with the character but he doesn't have to worry about tying it in with post-Joker War.

Also if I can be honest, I am aware of Helena Wayne being in this future story and while I know it is focusing on Catwoman, I am definitely there to see more of future Gotham and Bruce's now adult kids, that is what I love about elseworlds.

[millernumber1]

I'm definitely interested in what Tom King can do now that he's relatively free of restraint, I mean obviously he cannot do whatever he wants with the character but he doesn't have to worry about tying it in with post-Joker War.

Also if I can be honest, I am aware of Helena Wayne being in this future story and while I know it is focusing on Catwoman, I am definitely there to see more of future Gotham and Bruce's now adult kids, that is what I love about elseworlds.

I am also really intrigued by the idea of the future of Selina and Gotham. Though I'm really hopeful that this book isn't completely rejecting the romance element I love in his Batman run.