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  1. #76
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    So Helena will only be in the special and not Bat/Cat? That's what King has been teasing this whole time? I hope that's not the case, because if it is, then it really doesn't mean anything.

  2. #77
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    So Helena will only be in the special and not Bat/Cat? That's what King has been teasing this whole time? I hope that's not the case, because if it is, then it really doesn't mean anything.
    I'm sure I will say this a LOT in the next 16 months (or until Bat/Cat is over), but please, do not assume anything about what is in the comics until we've actually had a chance to read the comics.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  3. #78
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    So I didn't get into the King Batman until I Am Bane, so this was the first read of I Am Suicide. Found the graphic novel at a used bookstore.

    What struck me the most was the parallel structure in IAS with what I had just read with the final confrontation between Bruce and Thomas. The key players are Wesker, Catwoman and Batman in each case. You have Batman taking the brunt of the fight and getting beat, practically. Batman and Bane/Thomas philosophizing about what it means to be Batman (a heavily distracting concept, it appears!). Then Catwoman as the "ace in the hole" in both stories and the same exact choreographed moment with Catwoman surprise-attacking Bane/Thomas.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I'm sure I will say this a LOT in the next 16 months (or until Bat/Cat is over), but please, do not assume anything about what is in the comics until we've actually had a chance to read the comics.
    I don't understand how lilyrose came to that assumption.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, the type of romance story I'm most used to is the fairly formulaic romance novel you'll see in grocery store checkout lanes - boy meets girl, they fall in love/bed, wacky hijinks ensue, they breakup at precisely the 3/4th mark, misery ensues, and they get back together in some grand gesture in the last few chapters, then live happily ever after.

    King's structure is: boy is very sad, boy meets back up with girl he put in jail before the story starts, they fall into rooftops (because they're already in love), hijinks ensue, girl is innocent (spoilers), they get engaged, more hijinks, they break up at what originally was the halfway point but turns out to be about the 2/3rds point, misery ensues super hard, they get back together in the last 7 issues, and live happily ever after.

    I guess it maps. It's just crisscrossed with all the other genres, and as I said, the sex of the MC is male, as opposed to the typical MC of a romance novel, who is female.
    We might be slightly far afield, but it maps much better from Selina's POV (even though it's not her book). Selina is the lower class woman who catches the eye of a prince/duke/nobleman, he's willing to pursue her but she is reticent because of his station, eventually they get together. The big difference is that Selina comes to Bruce's rescue, and not vice versa. The other difference, of course, is that King's run is not the start of their story, so there's a lot of confounding plot stuff (the boat or the street, our introduction to Selina being in media res, etc).
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  6. #81
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    So I didn't get into the King Batman until I Am Bane, so this was the first read of I Am Suicide. Found the graphic novel at a used bookstore.

    What struck me the most was the parallel structure in IAS with what I had just read with the final confrontation between Bruce and Thomas. The key players are Wesker, Catwoman and Batman in each case. You have Batman taking the brunt of the fight and getting beat, practically. Batman and Bane/Thomas philosophizing about what it means to be Batman (a heavily distracting concept, it appears!). Then Catwoman as the "ace in the hole" in both stories and the same exact choreographed moment with Catwoman surprise-attacking Bane/Thomas.
    King very much wanted to play with repeated structures - not just dialogue, but also narratives. I love it.

    I also don't see how people could not expect Catwoman to come in at the last minute and help Batman, after this arc. It's just the way their relationship works, in King's run.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    We might be slightly far afield, but it maps much better from Selina's POV (even though it's not her book). Selina is the lower class woman who catches the eye of a prince/duke/nobleman, he's willing to pursue her but she is reticent because of his station, eventually they get together. The big difference is that Selina comes to Bruce's rescue, and not vice versa. The other difference, of course, is that King's run is not the start of their story, so there's a lot of confounding plot stuff (the boat or the street, our introduction to Selina being in media res, etc).
    Excellent points! And I don't think it's far afield at all - the point of a reread is to contextualize and gain new understanding of the run!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    So Helena will only be in the special and not Bat/Cat? That's what King has been teasing this whole time? I hope that's not the case, because if it is, then it really doesn't mean anything.
    forget what he's teasing and enjoy the journey. much like the wedding I doubt anything teased will turn out how fans are expecting. Just enjoy the book if it ends how you hoped great. if it surprises you might be even better

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    I agree with these Good and Bad, although I'm much higher on the Good and less bothered by the Bad, I think. The main "bad" for this arc is also true for the whole run — King takes a lot of liberties to construct a plot, and it never seems to add up to make complete sense, practically. In the end, the smaller moments make it all worthwhile.

    So I love I Am Suicide. This was the story that got me back into reading Batman and DC regularly again.
    Just to be clear, I love the story too, warts and all, but I still think it's King's second-weakest Batman arc, "I Am Bane" being first.

    —Batman leading a heist caper is a slam dunk for me. I want so much more of this, there's not enough Mission Impossible style stories for Batman. Another good example would be the Hong Kong scene in "The Dark Knight" film; beyond that I can't think of too many other similar stories that go this route.... only other one I can think of is the beginning of the "Legacy" storyline where Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Selina are infiltrating Ra's al Ghul/Bane's desert hideaway. Even "No Man's Land" entirely skips over how the heroes were able to get in and out of the city, multiple times (it's not only "Dark Knight Rises" that cheats this). So even though the plan is ridiculous, I still love the overall shape of a "sneaky espionage snatch-and-grab" mission for Batman.
    Agreed. The problem with "I Am Suicide" is that it's pitched as a clever heist, but doesn't have the satisfying sleight-of-hand payoff and leans heavier into the action elements than the actual caper.

    —The acknowledgment of suicide!! A lot of fans hated this, it seems, but I adore it. It's such an emotionally intelligent read on the origin, such a small incisive addition that is so revealing and reverberant through everything. Batman's always had a lot of stories about his capability for self destruction, and his willingness to sacrifice his life for his mission/his vow, but it's never been acknowledged emotionally in a way this human before. The issue of his letter (12, iirc) is one of the highlight issues for whole run.
    I think my reaction at first was mixed, but I didn't really understand where King was going with it until later. I was initially worried that he was building Batman up as an inescapable tragedy. The irony is that King's Batman is actually the healthiest he's been depicted since the 70s, maybe more so, because of how honestly he expresses himself, especially to Selina. That's one of the things I love about King's Batman the most. He's not the guy who pushes it all inside and holds every perceived weakness in contempt. (My mind goes to his great speech to the jurors in "Cold Days"--he's very self-aware and embraces his nature as a flawed human being.)

    I love the over-the-top absurdity of him Arkham-video-game style just brawling through a hundred armed guys, and how it juxtaposes with the very human letter to Catwoman.
    The letter is great! The brawl not so much. Readers were sold on a stealth caper and mostly got a Chuck Norris film instead.

    I love that it's a letter, and not an internal monologue. I love that Batman is talking emotionally instead of logistically walking us through the plan, or how the bones are breaking... The letter lets us into Bruce's head in a way where I felt Bruce was truly relatable, which is almost never the case. Usually it's that Bruce is interesting, he's like a case study, and is sometimes in relatable dynamics, but I don't think I'd ever connected to Bruce emotionally like that since maybe Mask Of The Phantasm.
    Agreed.

    —"I Am Suicide" also reveals that this is a romantic epic, which I find to be just as exciting and fresh as the humanistic take on Bruce's vow. Even just looking at this arc out of the context of the larger run, I think this is instantly one of the Top 3 best Batman / Catwoman stories ever told. We're introduced to "Bat / Cat" banter for the first time, which works well for me so that's a big plus in my book. There's some killer dialogue moments of tenderness between them -- "What am I supposed to do?"
    I agree with your sentiment, but I wouldn't put "I Am Suicide" in the top ten Batman/Catwoman stories told, much less the top three. I love what it sets in motion, but the story itself is rather flat when compared to "Rooftops" or the story from Batman Annual #2.

    —Naked Bane is simultaneously bizarre and also works so well for the character. Another example of an original take that I just find to be so refreshing, in part because it's at least doing something different and has something to say.
    It totally fits. I was just reading Bane of the Demon last night and Ra's al Ghul points out that Bane lacks subtlety. I totally buy into the idea that he's a guy who sits naked on a throne of skulls!

    —This arc, moreso than I Am Gotham, flagged to me that King has something new to say about the character. And while the rest of the arc expands his thoughts, all of them are present and accounted for in I Am Suicide.
    I think "I Am Gotham" already convinced me of that. But you're right in that his most important themes get rolling in "I Am Suicide."

    —The art! It's the first pairing of Janin with King, and they're a great combo.
    They really are!

  10. #85
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Naked Bane is ok by me. He is a guy dependent on tricks to give him strength, so by being naked it shows he has nothing up his sleeve. Literally. The throne of skulls thing is just goofy to me. Are you telling me that he went to the bother to go find that many skulls and improbably pile them up just for effect? Totally impractical and silly. But thats comics for ya.
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  11. #86
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Naked Bane is ok by me. He is a guy dependent on tricks to give him strength, so by being naked it shows he has nothing up his sleeve. Literally. The throne of skulls thing is just goofy to me. Are you telling me that he went to the bother to go find that many skulls and improbably pile them up just for effect? Totally impractical and silly. But thats comics for ya.
    I mean, I wouldn't necessarily assume he collected all the skulls himself. He probably has a guy.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I mean, I wouldn't necessarily assume he collected all the skulls himself. He probably has a guy.
    lmao, yeah he's definitely got a guy. We need a Kite Man-like interlude about Bane's Skull Guy.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    lmao, yeah he's definitely got a guy. We need a Kite Man-like interlude about Bane's Skull Guy.
    Lol. He could be modeled after Hamlet and make speeches like Maxie Zeus does. "Alas poor Yoric I knew him well ..."
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Lol. He could be modeled after Hamlet and make speeches like Maxie Zeus does. "Alas poor Yoric I knew him well ..."
    It actually totally works if Maxie Zeus were revealed to be Bane's Skull Collector... he's enough of a presence in the run, we know he falls in line with Bane, so it's not inconceivable... at least for a, er, headcanon.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    lmao, yeah he's definitely got a guy. We need a Kite Man-like interlude about Bane's Skull Guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Lol. He could be modeled after Hamlet and make speeches like Maxie Zeus does. "Alas poor Yoric I knew him well ..."
    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    It actually totally works if Maxie Zeus were revealed to be Bane's Skull Collector... he's enough of a presence in the run, we know he falls in line with Bane, so it's not inconceivable... at least for a, er, headcanon.
    LOL I really need Tom King to write the short story "Head Canon" now.

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