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  1. #211
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I actually like the Master Bruce story. The art is cool and it works as a detective short story as we see Batman's process of thought to solve a mystery. The big mistake I see in it is that the answer to the murders was painfully obvious to me and that didn't make the story as engaging as it could have been in my first read, but even then, I really liked the final confrontation between Master Bruce and Batman and the distorted version the first gave about Bruce Wayne's figure.

    Superfriends: Wonder Woman I really dislike. I love Joelle Jones work and everything visual about the story, but I don't like where Tom King was headed nor the execution of the arc. Also, the Gentle Man came out of nowhere and I found him an unnecessary addition for just one story and that didn't have the necessary development for me to care. He just came out as some sort of ******* by cheating WW and Batman and I don't particularly enjoy when characters go through things that would mentally maimed even a superhero and they don't experiment larger traumas. How many years Diana and Bruce passed fighting just to come back and act like if they had been gone just for a couple of hours?

    If I didn't know about the controversy surrounding Ivy in War of Jokes and Riddles I would have enjoyed Everyone Loves Ivy a lot more, but as it is, I get the sensation it was mostly done to appeal to Twitter's controversy and not in a good way. I like the idea of redemption for Ivy, but I think it would be better achieved if she had to deal and overcome the murders she has commited. Also, the second issue of the arc has Batman talk about someone who Ivy killed or kidnapped but we never get an answer of what happened to him. It's one of those points in the run where I think King put things out there and didn't take full responsibility for them. It's a pity because I really like the first two issue of the storyline. Mikel Janín does a beautiful Ivy at least

    I think this too is my least favorite part of the run, where I was enjoying more the art than the writing. Luckly, I really love most of what comes next
    Last edited by Chubistian; 02-19-2020 at 10:08 AM.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

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  2. #212
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    There's no part of me that thinks King had a shot of sticking the landing with the Master Bruce stuff, so I'm not upset it got tossed by the wayside. What if Tommy Elliot was younger and douchier and less competent? To mis-appropriate a quote from a research paper review my boss once got - "this character fills a much needed hole in the Batman canon"

    Superfriends B was a mis-step, especially in comparison to Date Night - it wasn't particularly fun or illuminating of their relationship. The Gentle Man seems like a concept worthy of a prestige 6-issue mini, not a plot device. Oh, well.

    I liked the Ivy story. Beyond the fact that it was the last Bat/Cat working in harmony story until CoB, it was at least interesting in that the villain had obvious yet understandable limits that were exploitable (unlike Thomas or Bane, who were omniscient about everything except, somehow, that Selina loved Bruce and would have his back).

    Were we going to discuss HiC as it relates to Batman at some point? I mean, Bat/Cat still isn't being solicited as of May, so we're going to have some free time . . .
    Solid thoughts. I think my biggest problem with the Ivy story is that it casts Ivy as purely reactive, a victim, rather than having any real identity or goals on her own that aren't just reactions to other people. I prefer an Ivy who has done wrong because it is her own choice, and maybe regrets it, maybe doesn't agree that it's wrong - not an Ivy who was just manipulated or mind controlled.

    HiC is slated as a bonus in the Knightmares arc. Depending on how that goes (I personally think there's a TON to talk about in Knightmares by itself), I may suggest doing it on its own after we finish the main run. Unless people want to slot it in somewhere else. Any of those I'd be fine with - just need some feedback from the group!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  3. #213
    Fantastic Member Valentis's Avatar
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    DC is teasing a Catwoman pregnancy.

    https://www.cbr.com/batman-catwoman-...yle-pregnancy/

    This better be true. Catwoman is pregnant for real this time.

  4. #214
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    I hope, but...I think this is from King's upcoming Catwoman short for the April spectacular. He said it was called "Helena." And it's Mikel Janin, and he's doing the art for that, right?

    I don't know if that means it's just a what-if or something. Hopefully it's more like a build-up to Bat/Cat (because didn't he say Helena was going to feature in that too?)

  5. #215
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I actually like the Master Bruce story. The art is cool and it works as a detective short story as we see Batman's process of thought to solve a mystery. The big mistake I see in it is that the answer to the murders was painfully obvious to me and that didn't make the story as engaging as it could have been in my first read, but even then, I really liked the final confrontation between Master Bruce and Batman and the distorted version the first gave about Bruce Wayne's figure.

    Superfriends: Wonder Woman I really dislike. I love Joelle Jones work and everything visual about the story, but I don't like where Tom King was headed nor the execution of the arc. Also, the Gentle Man came out of nowhere and I found him an unnecessary addition for just one story and that didn't have the necessary development for me to care. He just came out as some sort of ******* by cheating WW and Batman and I don't particularly enjoy when characters go through things that would mentally maimed even a superhero and they don't experiment larger traumas. How many years Diana and Bruce passed fighting just to come back and act like if they had been gone just for a couple of hours?

    If I didn't know about the controversy surrounding Ivy in War of Jokes and Riddles I would have enjoyed Everyone Loves Ivy a lot more, but as it is, I get the sensation it was mostly done to appeal to Twitter's controversy and not in a good way. I like the idea of redemption for Ivy, but I think it would be better achieved if she had to deal and overcome the murders she has commited. Also, the second issue of the arc has Batman talk about someone who Ivy killed or kidnapped but we never get an answer of what happened to him. It's one of those points in the run where I think King put things out there and didn't take full responsibility for them. It's a pity because I really like the first two issue of the storyline. Mikel Janín does a beautiful Ivy at least

    I think this too is my least favorite part of the run, where I was enjoying more the art than the writing. Luckly, I really love most of what comes next
    Glad to have some counterpoint views! I do like the idea of a whodunnit - but I think Brave and the Mold stands out as being the best standalone detective story in King's run.

    I think the world Batman and Wonder Woman were stuck in has some sort of strange time-effect. Similar to how speedsters don't necessarily experience time in the Speed Force the same way we would as if it just happened to our body and minds subjectively. It's confusing - but it's the idea that the world around us moves more slowly, but we don't have to experience time as if it really took the days it would take to run around the world. That's how I imagine the time went for Batman and Wonder Woman - they knew that it took years, but there was a sense of dreamlike unreality to it.

    I agree - it felt very much like pandering to the Ivy twitter drama. Which I don't like at all.

    I also enjoy most of what comes next! But hopefully we have more people with counterpoint views as well expressed as yours!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentis View Post
    DC is teasing a Catwoman pregnancy.

    https://www.cbr.com/batman-catwoman-...yle-pregnancy/

    This better be true. Catwoman is pregnant for real this time.
    I'm pretty sure that's from the Catwoman 80th special. And is probably a future story. Which I'm cool with. Though if DC wants to tell a story about Batman actually going through the fatherhood process, I'd think that was interesting too. As long as it was well done.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  6. #216
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Any other time I'd say what-if. But considering what's coming up, I think its extremely likely this is going to be legit canon. By the time Generation Five starts, considering there's some sort of timeskip, they might very well plan on having a canon Helena Wayne that's old enough to utilize, even if she's only in the 5-8 range or so.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 02-19-2020 at 11:41 AM.
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  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Any other time I'd say what-if. But considering what's coming up, I think its extremely likely this is going to be legit canon. By the time Generation Five starts, considering there's some sort of timeskip, they might very well plan on having a canon Helena Wayne that's old enough to utilize, even if she's only in the 5-8 range or so.
    True. I mean, there's many people who assume that if Batman were to retire or step away for a while, a completely acceptable reason would be to raise his daughter. Hopefully that's how DC sees it as well, that would really be the easiest explanation for it when they get to 5G.

    Maybe they'll allow that to happen. This short and the Bat/Cat series will certainly set that up as a possibility, they might as well take it.

  8. #218
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Like others have said, this part of the run for me feels wasted now because it was never followed up. The point of the Wonder Woman stuff was hard to grasp, except that it put Catwoman in a protective role over Bruce, which indicates that she really cares for him rather than being her usual Catwoman self. So it was here where I first started thinking that there really was something between them that wasn't just a scheme within a scheme, per Selina's usual m.o.

    This development of the relationship continues into Everybody Loves Ivy which, I have to admit, is one of my favorites of the whole run that I will readily re-read from time to time. Maybe I'm an odd duck, but this is what comics are for! Don't try to be logical, just tell us a good story that stretches plausibility and has a message plus a little to say about the characters. To me, the message was consistent with much of King, that love conquers all. All the ridiculousness that we see with the superheroes and Ivy controlling all of the world and even her "redemption" is beside the point. Its about Ivy, Bruce and Selina. So yah, love this story.

    Heroes in Crisis, unfortunately, was the real fallout of this story as others have said. And I kind of wish that story didn't even exist. Never should have gotten the greenlight and it could well have been the story that led to King's demise in this run. But I'd be happy to discuss it here or in a new thread.
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  9. #219
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Like others have said, this part of the run for me feels wasted now because it was never followed up. The point of the Wonder Woman stuff was hard to grasp, except that it put Catwoman in a protective role over Bruce, which indicates that she really cares for him rather than being her usual Catwoman self. So it was here where I first started thinking that there really was something between them that wasn't just a scheme within a scheme, per Selina's usual m.o.

    This development of the relationship continues into Everybody Loves Ivy which, I have to admit, is one of my favorites of the whole run that I will readily re-read from time to time. Maybe I'm an odd duck, but this is what comics are for! Don't try to be logical, just tell us a good story that stretches plausibility and has a message plus a little to say about the characters. To me, the message was consistent with much of King, that love conquers all. All the ridiculousness that we see with the superheroes and Ivy controlling all of the world and even her "redemption" is beside the point. Its about Ivy, Bruce and Selina. So yah, love this story.

    Heroes in Crisis, unfortunately, was the real fallout of this story as others have said. And I kind of wish that story didn't even exist. Never should have gotten the greenlight and it could well have been the story that led to King's demise in this run. But I'd be happy to discuss it here or in a new thread.
    Well, let's save the Heroes in Crisis discussion until we actually do that by itself. I'm sure that will be pretty heated, though hopefully I won't be the only one with positive things to say - and I do understand why people hate it so much.

    I am so glad that you loved Everybody Loves Ivy! It would be quite dull if everyone had the same opinion! I do like the point you bring out - that love is the thing that should win, not violence.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  10. #220
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    Another thing about this section of the run is that, when looking back at it, it very clearly marks the end of "these are stories about these people" and moves to "these stories set up the next one" - yes, Rules of Engagement gives us Holly who is part of Bane's plot, but the main thrust of that story was about Bat/Cat having an adventure as a couple together and preparing for the wedding - the Ivy plot may or may not be reactive to War of Jokes and Riddles, and may or may not have existed solely to set up HiC, but all of these stories were about Bruce reacting to basic events around him (meeting up w/Clark, solving a case, fulfilling an obligation to the Gentle Man, thwarting the villain of the week). From here on out (other than the dress), everything is Bruce reacting to stimuli from Bane or Thomas - there's no Rooftops or Brave and the Mold or anything else from here on out (although Knightmares kind of fills that void, it only exists because of Bane and Thomas).
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  11. #221
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    Another thing about this section of the run is that, when looking back at it, it very clearly marks the end of "these are stories about these people" and moves to "these stories set up the next one" - yes, Rules of Engagement gives us Holly who is part of Bane's plot, but the main thrust of that story was about Bat/Cat having an adventure as a couple together and preparing for the wedding - the Ivy plot may or may not be reactive to War of Jokes and Riddles, and may or may not have existed solely to set up HiC, but all of these stories were about Bruce reacting to basic events around him (meeting up w/Clark, solving a case, fulfilling an obligation to the Gentle Man, thwarting the villain of the week). From here on out (other than the dress), everything is Bruce reacting to stimuli from Bane or Thomas - there's no Rooftops or Brave and the Mold or anything else from here on out (although Knightmares kind of fills that void, it only exists because of Bane and Thomas).
    That's a very good point. I just think that unlike the post-50 stuff, the setups aren't quite for the things the run is eventually going to pay off.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  12. #222
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    Another thing about this section of the run is that, when looking back at it, it very clearly marks the end of "these are stories about these people" and moves to "these stories set up the next one" - yes, Rules of Engagement gives us Holly who is part of Bane's plot, but the main thrust of that story was about Bat/Cat having an adventure as a couple together and preparing for the wedding - the Ivy plot may or may not be reactive to War of Jokes and Riddles, and may or may not have existed solely to set up HiC, but all of these stories were about Bruce reacting to basic events around him (meeting up w/Clark, solving a case, fulfilling an obligation to the Gentle Man, thwarting the villain of the week). From here on out (other than the dress), everything is Bruce reacting to stimuli from Bane or Thomas - there's no Rooftops or Brave and the Mold or anything else from here on out (although Knightmares kind of fills that void, it only exists because of Bane and Thomas).
    I hadn't thought about it this way before. This section of the run really does mark a transition from episodic, set up and exposition to a more focused saga type of approach. At the end of Everyone Loves Ivy, you can see that all of the pieces are now in place to make that final run to the finish line. Suddenly things feel more important from here on out.
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  13. #223
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Glad to have some counterpoint views! I do like the idea of a whodunnit - but I think Brave and the Mold stands out as being the best standalone detective story in King's run.

    I think the world Batman and Wonder Woman were stuck in has some sort of strange time-effect. Similar to how speedsters don't necessarily experience time in the Speed Force the same way we would as if it just happened to our body and minds subjectively. It's confusing - but it's the idea that the world around us moves more slowly, but we don't have to experience time as if it really took the days it would take to run around the world. That's how I imagine the time went for Batman and Wonder Woman - they knew that it took years, but there was a sense of dreamlike unreality to it.

    I agree - it felt very much like pandering to the Ivy twitter drama. Which I don't like at all.

    I also enjoy most of what comes next! But hopefully we have more people with counterpoint views as well expressed as yours!
    I like your view on how time works in the world where The Gentle Man fights, though I would have prefered an explicit explanation in the story, I think there are enough hints to make your point pretty plausible. I have a feeling that there are going to be some interesting discussions on what comes next, especially in stuff like the wedding and Knightmares

    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    Another thing about this section of the run is that, when looking back at it, it very clearly marks the end of "these are stories about these people" and moves to "these stories set up the next one" - yes, Rules of Engagement gives us Holly who is part of Bane's plot, but the main thrust of that story was about Bat/Cat having an adventure as a couple together and preparing for the wedding - the Ivy plot may or may not be reactive to War of Jokes and Riddles, and may or may not have existed solely to set up HiC, but all of these stories were about Bruce reacting to basic events around him (meeting up w/Clark, solving a case, fulfilling an obligation to the Gentle Man, thwarting the villain of the week). From here on out (other than the dress), everything is Bruce reacting to stimuli from Bane or Thomas - there's no Rooftops or Brave and the Mold or anything else from here on out (although Knightmares kind of fills that void, it only exists because of Bane and Thomas).
    Great point! We're going full on Bane's and later Thomas's plan from here on out.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  14. #224
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    Quick thoughts!

    —I love the bit of Ivy's Superman punching Batman's face off, literally, after his smart aleck remark (and then immediately fixing it, was all part of the plan, etc). I remember audibly laugh/gasping at that sequence the first time.

    —Brave and the Mold is a perfect issue. Introduction of Kite Man. The chapter titles. The banter. Love the panel of them in the library, Alfred sweeping up, Bruce's kinda Adam West vibe. The ending of Batman screaming coward at a pile of dirt is *chef's kiss* beautiful.

  15. #225
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Quick thoughts!

    —I love the bit of Ivy's Superman punching Batman's face off, literally, after his smart aleck remark (and then immediately fixing it, was all part of the plan, etc). I remember audibly laugh/gasping at that sequence the first time.

    —Brave and the Mold is a perfect issue. Introduction of Kite Man. The chapter titles. The banter. Love the panel of them in the library, Alfred sweeping up, Bruce's kinda Adam West vibe. The ending of Batman screaming coward at a pile of dirt is *chef's kiss* beautiful.
    Batman's plan in Everyone Loves Ivy is pretty fun, I think. There was a very eerie quality to the whole arc that was well done.

    Brave and the Mold is magnificent.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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