Tom King Batman: Reread & Bat/Cat Appreciation 2020

[David Walton]

The idea that they understand each other while not being the same - complementing each other - is one that I like a lot. I'm not completely sure that King articulates that part as well as other parts of the Bat/Cat relationship, though. He tends to hammer home "we know each other because we have the same pain".

True, but keep in mind that's typically delivered from their perspective. The concept of shared pain might be what rushes to the surface for both Bruce and Selina, but if you were to ask, say, Alfred or Dick, they would almost certainly come up with the complementary angle.

I think King doesn't look at Batman as a real, literal job.

Well who do we send our resumes to, then?

To me, when you read "Every Day" (Annual #4), you see that Batman, to him, is somewhat symbolic or analogous to our everyday lives, where we face troubles big and small, and he makes the choices we want to make in our best selves. So the question of "how would Batman be most effective - punching people in the face, or giving billions to charity" is irrelevant, to me. I like what James Tynion said - Gotham isn't a real city - it's a fictional city designed to scare us, to give us hope, and to explore aspects of urban life. It's not supposed to be real.

Sure. Like King says in his letter column for The Vision, a story isn't a 1:1 ratio. That's an essay.

And I agree that King sees Batman as a good thing - a hard thing, something that requires great personal sacrifice, but not tragic, like Snyder and Morrison ended their runs with.

Agreed!

I just bought the issue where Catwoman marries Batman in Earth 2 - they had it as a Dollar Comic this week. Catwoman's origin was rejiggered to make her a lot more moral and sympathetic, which I thought was very interesting.

What issue is it? I've read the one where Selina recounts the moment they fell in love after Bruce's death. I think it was an encounter with Scarecrow that ultimately pushed them together, if memory serves.

Edit: It's THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD #197, "THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF BRUCE WAYNE!" by Alan Brennert.

Bane: Conquest is indeed a weird fish if you try to fit it into Rebirth continuity. I honestly just read it as taking place after Legacy or somewhere in that timeframe, in the old continuity. I quite liked the way Dixon ended it, in terms of Bane's morality.

That story is a hot mess! You're right about the ending though.

[Starrius]

Yes in the late seventies/early eighties Earth 1 Catwoman became a full time heroine and (if I'm not wrong) the full time Bruce's mate, but before that she had a long story of criminality and redemption and yes again: Earth 2 Selina was Bruce's wife and Helena Wayne/Huntress' mother.

Were the Earth 2 characters originally the Golden Age characters?

[David Walton]

Were the Earth 2 characters originally the Golden Age characters?

Yes. Earth 2's Bruce Wayne married Selina Kyle, had a daughter, retired and became the commissioner of police before he died.

[millernumber1]

True, but keep in mind that's typically delivered from their perspective. The concept of shared pain might be what rushes to the surface for both Bruce and Selina, but if you were to ask, say, Alfred or Dick, they would almost certainly come up with the complementary angle.

Well who do we send our resumes to, then?

What issue is it? I've read the one where Selina recounts the moment they fell in love after Bruce's death. I think it was an encounter with Scarecrow that ultimately pushed them together, if memory serves.

Edit: It's THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD #197, "THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF BRUCE WAYNE!" by Alan Brennert.

That story is a hot mess! You're right about the ending though.

That's a good point. I just wish King had presented the outside view as well as the inside view. I'm not personally complaining, but it might help with those who constantly claim that King doesn't think Batman cares about the rest of his family.

Send your resumes to researchanddevelopment@wayneenterprises.inc I'm sure Lucius would help ya out!

It was indeed BatB 197. Very nice little story - though it was Selina, not Bruce, who dies after 20 years of marriage.

I think Bane Conquest could have been a really good 6 issue mini, but 12 issues was a bit long. I liked the way it wrapped up quite a bit, though.

[David Walton]

That's a good point. I just wish King had presented the outside view as well as the inside view. I'm not personally complaining, but it might help with those who constantly claim that King doesn't think Batman cares about the rest of his family.

Yeah, it would have been great to get an outside perspective. Got a bit of that in "Rules of Engagement" with Dick and Damian's conversation, but nothing too detailed.

Send your resumes to researchanddevelopment@wayneenterprises.inc I'm sure Lucius would help ya out!

You know, on second thought, I think a nice, cushy job in Metropolis would serve me better...

It was indeed BatB 197. Very nice little story - though it was Selina, not Bruce, who dies after 20 years of marriage.

It is a beautiful story. One wonders if King had this in mind when he wrote "Some of These Days" for Batman Annual #2.

I just re-read it, and you're absolutely right, Selina passed away before Bruce on Earth-2.

I think Bane Conquest could have been a really good 6 issue mini, but 12 issues was a bit long. I liked the way it wrapped up quite a bit, though.

Yeah, I'm inclined to think it could even have been cut down to three or four issues. Make it a tighter focus with the kidnapped kid front and center from the beginning, so that Bane's choice has more impact. Oh well! It's fun to see Bane, Zombie, Bird and Trogg in action.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, it would have been great to get an outside perspective. Got a bit of that in "Rules of Engagement" with Dick and Damian's conversation, but nothing too detailed.

You know, on second thought, I think a nice, cushy job in Metropolis would serve me better...

It is a beautiful story. One wonders if King had this in mind when he wrote "Some of These Days" for Batman Annual #2.

Yeah, I'm inclined to think it could even have been cut down to three or four issues. Make it a tighter focus with the kidnapped kid front and center from the beginning, so that Bane's choice has more impact. Oh well! It's fun to see Bane, Zombie, Bird and Trogg in action.

Yup. Just a few lines here or there would have at least helped with countering the memes. But sadly, at this point, the meme momentum (mementum?) is way too set to really shift those who hate this run.

You might have a point with that. Is there maybe a nice admin job for the Daily Planet?

Three or four seems a bit too small. There was a lot of fun stuff in there for me. Especially Nolan's art!

[David Walton]

Yup. Just a few lines here or there would have at least helped with countering the memes. But sadly, at this point, the meme momentum (mementum?) is way too set to really shift those who hate this run.

Eh, this kind of thing has been going on since long before memes anyway, and they're going to pop up no matter what's being done.

"They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: ‘We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.’"

You might have a point with that. Is there maybe a nice admin job for the Daily Planet?

The Daily Planet? Maybe a few months ago! But now that Superman works there! Forget it!!!!

Three or four seems a bit too small. There was a lot of fun stuff in there for me. Especially Nolan's art!

Love Nolan's art! Prefer the mask without a nose hole, though.

[gregpersons]

I think King doesn't look at Batman as a real, literal job. To me, when you read "Every Day" (Annual #4), you see that Batman, to him, is somewhat symbolic or analogous to our everyday lives, where we face troubles big and small, and he makes the choices we want to make in our best selves. So the question of "how would Batman be most effective - punching people in the face, or giving billions to charity" is irrelevant, to me. I like what James Tynion said - Gotham isn't a real city - it's a fictional city designed to scare us, to give us hope, and to explore aspects of urban life. It's not supposed to be real.

Every Day is written from Alfred's POV, though -- it's Batman from an insider but still onlooker perspective. I think King looks at Batman as a career. Bruce is a workaholic who needs balance. Batman isn't a job, but it is his life's work. Thankfully for Bruce's career prospects, Bruce lives in Gotham, a fictional city that has such a need for a Batman, it will always manifest one.

[millernumber1]

Every Day is written from Alfred's POV, though -- it's Batman from an insider but still onlooker perspective. I think King looks at Batman as a career. Bruce is a workaholic who needs balance. Batman isn't a job, but it is his life's work. Thankfully for Bruce's career prospects, Bruce lives in Gotham, a fictional city that has such a need for a Batman, it will always manifest one.

Yup! (And also in my own interpretation, Gotham is a human soul that needs constant vigilance against the monsters that lurk within all of our hearts, no matter how many times we defeat them )

[Chubistian]

One thing I miss in Tom King's Bane are the spanish expressions. If this is someone's first interaction with Bane, they would have no idea that the island he lives on is spanish-speaking. It was a funny touch I liked in the character's origin, even when that spanish was poorly written. Like Bane's teddy bear named "osoito" instead of "osito" or Bane screaming "animale" instead of "animal"

[millernumber1]

One thing I miss in Tom King's Bane are the spanish expressions. If this is someone's first interaction with Bane, they would have no idea that the island he lives on is spanish-speaking. It was a funny touch I liked in the character's origin, even when that spanish was poorly written. Like Bane's teddy bear named "osoito" instead of "osito" or Bane screaming "animale" instead of "animal"

I also like in the Dixon Bane stuff when he says "Maledicion"

[gregpersons]

I also like in the Dixon Bane stuff when he says "Maledicion"

I can just picture his face too... Graham Nolan would draw his jaw-dropped with this exaggerated feature, the panel in the Legacy "rematch" fight between Bats and Bane.

I loved those post-Knightfall years where Bane became a little bit more of like a rival to Batman, moreso than a straight up rogue, they had this sort of almost "don't mess with me, I won't mess with you" agreement ... not super dissimilar to Catwoman. There was that Gotham Knights arc where it was teased that Thomas Wayne was Bane's birth father, which was pretty fun because all we knew about Bane's father was that he was a criminal, Bane's imprisonment was for his father's crimes.

So it's sort of interesting that Thomas is Bane's ally here — their dynamic in King's run isn't father-son, though that could've been an interesting angle to play in COB... I felt one of the areas that arc was lacking was in having a better understanding of Bane's reasons, emotionally... his motivations in "I Am Suicide" and "I Am Bane" felt stronger, and feel stronger again on a re-read compared to the reasoning behind his grand master plan.

[David Walton]

I can just picture his face too... Graham Nolan would draw his jaw-dropped with this exaggerated feature, the panel in the Legacy "rematch" fight between Bats and Bane.

I loved those post-Knightfall years where Bane became a little bit more of like a rival to Batman, moreso than a straight up rogue, they had this sort of almost "don't mess with me, I won't mess with you" agreement ... not super dissimilar to Catwoman. There was that Gotham Knights arc where it was teased that Thomas Wayne was Bane's birth father, which was pretty fun because all we knew about Bane's father was that he was a criminal, Bane's imprisonment was for his father's crimes.

I don't envy DC trying to figure out to keep Bane relevant post-Knightfall. Unlike the other rogues, his strongest showing was his first story arc, in terms of accomplishment. He broke the Batman right out of the gate. You then run into the problem, what do you do with a villain who knows Batman's secret identity and has proved himself capable of defeating him? If they continually come into conflict and Bane loses, then his credibility is gone. He's the one hit wonder of the rogues gallery. But he can't keep breaking Batman's back or putting him out of commission for years at a time!

I think they worked around it quite nicely for the first several years. Bane felt like there was an asterisk beside both his victory over Batman and his defeat to Jean Paul Valley because of the Venom. He kept his distance a bit from Bruce because deep down he knew he couldn't take him in a fair fight. And making him Ra's al Ghul's second choice for his heir was a stroke of genius--it played off Bane's post-Venom inferiority complex. And of course Ra's basically doing it to provoke Batman.

The allusion to Bane's parentage was a mistake in my opinion. It doesn't paint Thomas Wayne in a great light. With regard to Bane's father being a criminal, his crime was taking part in the revolution against the government. So there were allusions that Thomas Wayne maybe went there to do some medical charity work and supported the revolution with his money.

Was the first reference to this in Gotham Knights or Bane of the Demon? Because that story, by Chuck Dixon, kicks off with Bane trying to discover his parentage, and Thomas Wayne is hinted at. And Ra's al Ghul laughs uncontrollably when he discovers who Bane's real father is.

I can't remember which story first, so I don't know if Gotham Knights was picking up on that thread or if it was the other way around?

[Chubistian]

I also like in the Dixon Bane stuff when he says "Maledicion"

I can’t imagine how many great jewells I’ve missed by having Knightfall and Legacy in editions translated to spanish. I owe to myself to buy those stories in english one day to experience more of Bane’s exquisite spanish

[Chubistian]

I don't envy DC trying to figure out to keep Bane relevant post-Knightfall. Unlike the other rogues, his strongest showing was his first story arc, in terms of accomplishment. He broke the Batman right out of the gate. You then run into the problem, what do you do with a villain who knows Batman's secret identity and has proved himself capable of defeating him? If they continually come into conflict and Bane loses, then his credibility is gone. He's the one hit wonder of the rogues gallery. But he can't keep breaking Batman's back or putting him out of commission for years at a time!

I think they worked around it quite nicely for the first several years. Bane felt like there was an asterisk beside both his victory over Batman and his defeat to Jean Paul Valley because of the Venom. He kept his distance a bit from Bruce because deep down he knew he couldn't take him in a fair fight. And making him Ra's al Ghul's second choice for his heir was a stroke of genius--it played off Bane's post-Venom inferiority complex. And of course Ra's basically doing it to provoke Batman.

The allusion to Bane's parentage was a mistake in my opinion. It doesn't paint Thomas Wayne in a great light. With regard to Bane's father being a criminal, his crime was taking part in the revolution against the government. So there were allusions that Thomas Wayne maybe went there to do some medical charity work and supported the revolution with his money.

Was the first reference to this in Gotham Knights or Bane of the Demon? Because that story, by Chuck Dixon, kicks off with Bane trying to discover his parentage, and Thomas Wayne is hinted at. And Ra's al Ghul laughs uncontrollably when he discovers who Bane's real father is.

I can't remember which story first, so I don't know if Gotham Knights was picking up on that thread or if it was the other way around?

It’s been a while, but I don’t recall Bane of the Demon alluding Thomas Wayne as a possible father, at least not directly. It does name an american doctor as a possibility though. Later Gotham Knights would use that to put Thomas Wayne explicitly as the best shot to the true identity of Bane’s father. With the revelation of King Snake as Bane’s father, I think that plot was closed in a good way, by using another of Dixon’s creations. I think the “are we brothers” mystery between Bruce and Bane was totally unnecessary though