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  1. #196
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    To me, Superfriends is where King really hit his stride after some fairly lackluster issues in Rules of Engagement. Not that the Annual was lackluster, but I'm sort of not counting it because it stands so apart. And it was great.

    Rules of Engagement seemed to be intended to be humourous, and thats where I think it failed to deliver. The whole thing was tonally odd, as we have Dick and Damian banter, Talia and Selina banter and even Bruce and Talia banter. It just doesn't feel right. There were some good lines but overall the story feels off.

    The humor in Superfriends was just about pitch perfect, though. One of the highlights of the run for me.
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  2. #197
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    To me, Superfriends is where King really hit his stride after some fairly lackluster issues in Rules of Engagement. Not that the Annual was lackluster, but I'm sort of not counting it because it stands so apart. And it was great.

    Rules of Engagement seemed to be intended to be humourous, and thats where I think it failed to deliver. The whole thing was tonally odd, as we have Dick and Damian banter, Talia and Selina banter and even Bruce and Talia banter. It just doesn't feel right. There were some good lines but overall the story feels off.

    The humor in Superfriends was just about pitch perfect, though. One of the highlights of the run for me.
    Solid thoughts! I love the way Dick explains it to Damian, but as a whole, there are a lot of holes in Rules of Engagement - like...why ARE Bruce, Selina, and Holly allowed to leave, when Superman is so upset about it all?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  3. #198
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    The annual is probably my favorite issue of King's entire run, and that's impressive to say the least.

    Also, a perfect read for Valentine's!

  4. #199
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    The annual is probably my favorite issue of King's entire run, and that's impressive to say the least.

    Also, a perfect read for Valentine's!
    Oh, man, I didn't even think of that! It's such a gorgeous issue, on the writing, art, and coloring levels. Just so well done.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  5. #200
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I think that the biggest mistake in Rules of Engagement is that the setup never pays off. I can accept that Talia hid Holly for whatever reason, maybe Talia took anyone who wanted protection into her care, but everything else is made up like a big deal. Talia's base is described like this horrifying place where you're going to die if you enter without permission or the JL will take you to jail if you manage to come out, still, there're 0 consequences for Batman's trespassing. If the the setup would have been less hyped, I think the story would have worked better. Still, I actually enjoy the banter between the different characters and I think that Talia never really took everything as serious as she tried to feign. Joelle Jones did an amazing job, so that helps to elevate the story, though one minor nitpick I have is when Catwoman's sword changes hands from panel to panel. Also, I'm still wondering what happened to Holly and why she betrayed Selina. I guess we are going to get answers in Batman/Catwoman

    I doubt I have anything to add to the Annual #2, I just consider it perfect and one of the best stories from the run

    Superfriends: Superman is another great win. My only nitpicks are those two pages where the four same panels are repeated over and over in the 9 panel grids with the characters eating ice-cream. Otherwise, this must be one of the best and most original team up ever. I remember when the story was announced that I truly feared that this was going to be just another hero vs hero fight over something that could be fixed by discussing it, so I was really happy with how this turned out to be
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  6. #201
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I think that the biggest mistake in Rules of Engagement is that the setup never pays off. I can accept that Talia hid Holly for whatever reason, maybe Talia took anyone who wanted protection into her care, but everything else is made up like a big deal. Talia's base is described like this horrifying place where you're going to die if you enter without permission or the JL will take you to jail if you manage to come out, still, there're 0 consequences for Batman's trespassing. If the the setup would have been less hyped, I think the story would have worked better. Still, I actually enjoy the banter between the different characters and I think that Talia never really took everything as serious as she tried to feign. Joelle Jones did an amazing job, so that helps to elevate the story, though one minor nitpick I have is when Catwoman's sword changes hands from panel to panel. Also, I'm still wondering what happened to Holly and why she betrayed Selina. I guess we are going to get answers in Batman/Catwoman
    I never really had a problem with the Holly bit. I just assumed that Selina's letter in I Am Suicide was her understanding of why Holly did what she did. And I think Bane also was whispering in Holly's ear from the beginning - likely he even hired the original terrorists. So, to me, it doesn't feel like a loose end, like the Gotham Girl stuff does from I Am Gotham.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  7. #202
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I never really had a problem with the Holly bit. I just assumed that Selina's letter in I Am Suicide was her understanding of why Holly did what she did. And I think Bane also was whispering in Holly's ear from the beginning - likely he even hired the original terrorists. So, to me, it doesn't feel like a loose end, like the Gotham Girl stuff does from I Am Gotham.
    I would want some resolution between Holly and Selina, perhaps a dialogue between the two would suffice, I think it could make for a truly sentimental issue
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  8. #203
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I would want some resolution between Holly and Selina, perhaps a dialogue between the two would suffice, I think it could make for a truly sentimental issue
    That would be interesting. I never got far enough in Brubaker's run to really "get" Holly.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  9. #204
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That would be interesting. I never got far enough in Brubaker's run to really "get" Holly.
    I haven't even try Brubaker's run
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  10. #205
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    I LOVE Superfriends.

    That and Annual #2 are probably my favorites of this run. (Although I do like the one where Selina's shopping for a wedding dress too)

    It was just so great seeing the double date!

    I don't care for Rules of Engagement much because I can't stand Talia in general and I kinda wish she had been utterly ignored altogether for the entire run. The idea of Selina having to fight her is just stupid.

  11. #206
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    I like the Bat / Cat banter in Rules of Engagement, and the conversations among the Bat Family, especially Dick and Damian.

    Really that's I think what I like most about these issues overall in this stretch of the run — Annual 2, Rules of Engagement, and Superfriends — the fun, witty, dynamic banter with Bruce and Selina, and then with Clark and Lois.

    A lot of King's run is heavy on monologue — from 50 to the end definitely, but also throughout a lot of I Am Suicide and I Am Bane, too — but when Selina is with Bruce, it's all about the conversation. It's delightful.

  12. #207
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I think the time between the proposal and the wedding is also where King did more changes in the type of stories he was writing from arc to arc. If we take the two Superfriends parts (Superman and Wonder Woman) they are pretty different in their approach to how they handle Batman's friendship with the other two members of DC's Trinity. And in between we have issue #38 that is a detective story. Then we go from Batman and WW fighting monsters, to Ivy trying to take the world, Selina choosing her dress, a time travel story, and finally a confrontation against Joker (with some heavy nuances through dialogue). Maybe it's because the stories were longer up until the proposal, so the change in genre and topics was more of a exception, with things like The Brave and the Mold and Rooftops, or crossovers, but I think what shines more in the grand scheme of the run in this particular point of it is the constant changing in tone.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  13. #208
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I think the time between the proposal and the wedding is also where King did more changes in the type of stories he was writing from arc to arc. If we take the two Superfriends parts (Superman and Wonder Woman) they are pretty different in their approach to how they handle Batman's friendship with the other two members of DC's Trinity. And in between we have issue #38 that is a detective story. Then we go from Batman and WW fighting monsters, to Ivy trying to take the world, Selina choosing her dress, a time travel story, and finally a confrontation against Joker (with some heavy nuances through dialogue). Maybe it's because the stories were longer up until the proposal, so the change in genre and topics was more of a exception, with things like The Brave and the Mold and Rooftops, or crossovers, but I think what shines more in the grand scheme of the run in this particular point of it is the constant changing in tone.
    It does feel like King is being very experimental here, instead of trying to tell typical Batman stories. Which I appreciate, but they also somewhat feel forgettable - like some of the ones that are coming up, not directly related to the Wedding.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  14. #209
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Reread section this week is The Origin of Bruce Wayne, Superfriends B, Everyone Loves Ivy (38-43)

    Sadly one of my least favorite parts of the run. I really dislike the "Master Bruce" stuff, and King has said that it ultimately doesn't really go anywhere because of the truncation of his run. Travis Moore's art is great, though.

    Superfriends part B, the Wonder Woman two-shot, is significantly less interesting than Superfriends A, because Wonder Woman barely interacts with Selina. The almost kiss fakeout ending for the first half still doesn't sit well, and the whole plot about the Gentle Man still doesn't quite work for me. Jones's art is very pretty, and I do like things like Diana lighting the Batsignal. That was very fun.

    And, of course, Everyone Loves Ivy. I don't hate this arc, but it feels really unnecessary except to setup Heroes in Crisis.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  15. #210
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    There's no part of me that thinks King had a shot of sticking the landing with the Master Bruce stuff, so I'm not upset it got tossed by the wayside. What if Tommy Elliot was younger and douchier and less competent? To mis-appropriate a quote from a research paper review my boss once got - "this character fills a much needed hole in the Batman canon"

    Superfriends B was a mis-step, especially in comparison to Date Night - it wasn't particularly fun or illuminating of their relationship. The Gentle Man seems like a concept worthy of a prestige 6-issue mini, not a plot device. Oh, well.

    I liked the Ivy story. Beyond the fact that it was the last Bat/Cat working in harmony story until CoB, it was at least interesting in that the villain had obvious yet understandable limits that were exploitable (unlike Thomas or Bane, who were omniscient about everything except, somehow, that Selina loved Bruce and would have his back).

    Were we going to discuss HiC as it relates to Batman at some point? I mean, Bat/Cat still isn't being solicited as of May, so we're going to have some free time . . .
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