Tom King Batman: Reread & Bat/Cat Appreciation 2020

[Chubistian]

So, I was going to do this yesterday, but here we go:

Rate the Knightmares! Here's mine, from favorite to least:

66
63
69
68
67
62
61

My list from fav. to least
66
69
63
68
62
67
61

[millernumber1]

My list from fav. to least
66
69
63
68
62
67
61

Very close! I'm betting variations of art appreciation and meta commentary probably account for our variantions.

[bob.schoonover]

Do you guys mind if we stick with Knightmares and HiC/ the Flash tie-in story for another week. I finally have time to catch up, and frankly, there won't be anything new to get to anytime soon . . .

Without having re-read it, I know the Master Bruce issue will be my lowest ranked one of Knightmares

[millernumber1]

Do you guys mind if we stick with Knightmares and HiC/ the Flash tie-in story for another week. I finally have time to catch up, and frankly, there won't be anything new to get to anytime soon . . .

Without having re-read it, I know the Master Bruce issue will be my lowest ranked one of Knightmares

That's actually a really good idea! There's obviously no rush, since even BEFORE comics were paused, we didn't have Bat/Cat solicited.

Okay, so tomorrow, CONTINUE DISCUSSION KNIGHTMARES EVERYONE!

And hopefully others will have some thoughts. I really love this arc, and would love to hear other comments!

And maybe I'll do my HiC reread, since I've already done my main reread and commentary on Knightmares.

[bob.schoonover]

Heroes in Crisis and The Price.

HiC: I'll ignore whatever issues I have with the overall plot, and just address the parts of the story that pertain to Batman and King's run. The Ivy part of the story goes nowhere for her. She was dealing with her trauma, then killed off-screen, then (magically?) resurrected w/no new defined status quo. Neat. Booster is still dealing w/the PTSD from his time turner story, and working with Ted really seems to help him a bit (not any of the therapy, however little he'd have gotten). The Robins in the confessionals is a nice piece of construction and character work.

The Batman part of the story is the most frustrating as far as this thread is concerned - he lies to Superman about the Kryptonite, is pretty quickly exposed as a liar, then nothing really comes of it. He and Barry somehow can't recognize that the scene has been heavily doctored, then the Trinity basically stop being part of the story. It's clear that everyone was wrong to have assumed Batman had a backdoor and that's how all the videos were reconstructed (let's completely ignore how insane the reconstruction "method" was), but there's no coda to this plot. Given that DC has basically ignored the story since (other than Flash Forward, which completely re-statused Wally to the point that HiC can be ignored), it probably doesn't matter.

The Price: Hmm. Given the hand Willamson was dealt here (writing a tie-in w/o knowing the conclusion, trying to write a piece of another author's long-running story, seeding an upcoming event), I think he acquits himself adequately. Claire goes crazy for some unknown reason, Barry and Bruce investigate and snipe at each other, Claire gets better-ish. Done.

This story doesn't really help me at all in defining Claire's level of culpability in her misdeeds - Batman claims to have abandoned her, but that never happened on screen (her previous two appearances were her talk w/Bruce in 24 and then being in Bane's cadre in 50) - obviously, he spend a lot of time w/Selina, then goes nuts when she leaves him at the altar, but they both make it seem like it was a specific act. She says that after being abandoned she went (back to?) Bane, which is ... a choice. Did Bruce never explain to her what happened? Was she too dumb to understand what going back to Bane meant?

The fact that Venom was part of Gotham and Gotham Girl's super serum was a pretty big plot point here. Not only in making clear Bane's role in THE WHOLE PLOT, but in making Selina and Bruce's later quest make sense (if one ignores The Price, the super Venom thing in CoB is kind of out of nowhere).

The Bruce and Barry stuff was ... I don't know. It makes sense that they were at odds and other stuff would spill over, but, especially after knowing the end of HiC, Barry's anger sure seemed ... misplaced? Sullen, angry Barry is not interesting, and ineffectual Bruce is definitely not my favorite Bruce. These two stories are probably Bruce at his most useless. He's way behind the villain/plot, and there's no real sense that he's even competent. I enjoy King's run, but I am really looking forward to someone coming in and telling a more Grant Morrison season 1 level Batman - confident, capable, one step ahead of the game. It's really fun.

[Chubistian]

I must give it to Heroes In Crisis, even when I don't like the story, it has one of the most heartful and memorable Batman lines

[millernumber1]

I must give it to Heroes In Crisis, even when I don't like the story, it has one of the most heartful and memorable Batman lines

I need to do my HiC reread. But I also hope people do comment more about Knightmares.

About The Price, I have nothing good to say, sadly.

[Chubistian]

I need to do my HiC reread. But I also hope people do comment more about Knightmares.

About The Price, I have nothing good to say, sadly.

I'm totally with you on that one. The art was good would be my biggest compliment. I really didn't like that the Super Venom stuff was only dealt there until City of Bane, especially because it is one aspect that I don't like. I'm against making Venom this super drug that basically can evolve into anything the writers want, but it has been done so many times that I already got used to it

[bob.schoonover]

Okay, Knightmares time!

Master Bruce: This issue has two main flaws to me. One, as the first part of what we now know are a series of fear gas induced nightmares, this issue doesn't establish that premise AT ALL. It just seems like a sequel to the previous Master Bruce story. Two, now that we know this is a Knightmare, from whose point of view is it being told? Is Bruce imagining himself as young Matthew? The rest of it was fine. Matthew's crazy, he's a dark mirror image of Bruce (not unlike Bane, Thomas, and Gotham/Gotham Girl), it's somewhat interesting as a less intelligent Hush story, but it doesn't really move the plot along. One wonders what King's endgame was w/this diversion.

Professor Pyg: This was much better. Mitch Gerards' art is a perfect match for Pyg. As a nightmare, and as a plot establisher, I preferred this as the opener much more than Master Bruce. Even if it doesn't exactly establish what Batman's circumstances are, it establishes the level of unreality that Bruce has found himself in. Since it's not real, I can forgive the lack of a crazy Pyg monologue, although I would have enjoyed one. What a huge step up from Master Bruce.

[millernumber1]

Okay, Knightmares time!

Master Bruce: This issue has two main flaws to me. One, as the first part of what we now know are a series of fear gas induced nightmares, this issue doesn't establish that premise AT ALL. It just seems like a sequel to the previous Master Bruce story. Two, now that we know this is a Knightmare, from whose point of view is it being told? Is Bruce imagining himself as young Matthew? The rest of it was fine. Matthew's crazy, he's a dark mirror image of Bruce (not unlike Bane, Thomas, and Gotham/Gotham Girl), it's somewhat interesting as a less intelligent Hush story, but it doesn't really move the plot along. One wonders what King's endgame was w/this diversion.

Professor Pyg: This was much better. Mitch Gerards' art is a perfect match for Pyg. As a nightmare, and as a plot establisher, I preferred this as the opener much more than Master Bruce. Even if it doesn't exactly establish what Batman's circumstances are, it establishes the level of unreality that Bruce has found himself in. Since it's not real, I can forgive the lack of a crazy Pyg monologue, although I would have enjoyed one. What a huge step up from Master Bruce.

Excellent observations! My dislike of the whole Master Bruce story is largely that there's no one to be attached to in it - why should I care about "less intelligent Hush"? And then its integration into the Knightmares is very perplexing, as obviously King wasn't able to tell the final part of that story. Travis Moore's art is generally very nice, though.

[Chubistian]

Okay, Knightmares time!

Master Bruce: This issue has two main flaws to me. One, as the first part of what we now know are a series of fear gas induced nightmares, this issue doesn't establish that premise AT ALL. It just seems like a sequel to the previous Master Bruce story. Two, now that we know this is a Knightmare, from whose point of view is it being told? Is Bruce imagining himself as young Matthew? The rest of it was fine. Matthew's crazy, he's a dark mirror image of Bruce (not unlike Bane, Thomas, and Gotham/Gotham Girl), it's somewhat interesting as a less intelligent Hush story, but it doesn't really move the plot along. One wonders what King's endgame was w/this diversion.

Professor Pyg: This was much better. Mitch Gerards' art is a perfect match for Pyg. As a nightmare, and as a plot establisher, I preferred this as the opener much more than Master Bruce. Even if it doesn't exactly establish what Batman's circumstances are, it establishes the level of unreality that Bruce has found himself in. Since it's not real, I can forgive the lack of a crazy Pyg monologue, although I would have enjoyed one. What a huge step up from Master Bruce.

My thoughts exactly. I think Tom King owes us a proper Pyg monologue sometime. I think he would do wonders with the character

I think the point of view in Knightmares sometimes is hard to get. There're stories that are clearly envisioned from Bruce's direct perspective, but others where the focus is in another character and Bruce isn't even present in some scenes (Constantine, Selina w/Lois, etcetera). I think we should consider them as dreams, when sometimes they can be in first person and, from one moment to another, in third person, expectating from far away, or the dreamer becomes another character, another person. I think Bruce's point of view changes, from Matthew to Batman (the "victim" when he thinks he's young Bruce instead of Master Bruce, and the hero when he's Batman, to finally get to a third person perspective with the twist that he was Matthew all along). In the Lois and Selina issue, where he sees them partying, I think he watches as an omnipresent figure , but he's himself when playing chess with Clark

[bob.schoonover]

Constantine: Obviously the art rocked. Constantine makes sense as a "guide" Bruce's mind might conjure to help him figure out what is going on. The nightmare is honestly the most pedestrian of all of them - Bruce worries that Selina might die because she joins his quest.

The Question: This might be my favorite nightmare. The Question is the perfect interrogator for Bruce to create to question Selina about his version of why Selina left him. Fornes's art is sublime and well-suited to the tone of the piece. Bruce seems to have a very strong sense of self in this nightmare - he knows how people see him and his vow. The nightmare illustrates how wrecked Bruce was by the substance of Selina's note, but also how hollow the note really was. It wasn't the real reason, and Bruce knew that, but he can't figure out what the real reason is.

The Chase: This is obviously primarily an art piece (and a fantastic one at that). The substance of the nightmare is, I assume, the randomness of the Joker (and his enemies generally?). Batman will go to extraordinary lengths to catch the bad guy, and he'll have an utterly insane reason for the crimes (this is a nice pairing with the Constantine story - Two Face's crime is equally bizarre and there's no real reason behind either Selina's death in the nightmare or Dick's brain injury in the "real" world). I kind of think if we'd had the chase then Constantine that the flow would have been better.

The Bachelorette Party: This was easily the most fun issue. Lois and Selina, even Bruce's version of them, are just a hoot. Everything in the Fortress of Solitude is gold and King would be well-suited to writing a Catwoman/Lois ongoing. Unsurprisingly, Amanda Connor is ideally suited for the tone of the party (and the absurdity of Bruce and Clark's night in). The nightmare is a bit more of the same - Bruce can't handle not being Batman. The variation here, that Bruce may have driven Selina to that conclusion to avoid the boredom of married life, is new. It fits in with the Question nightmare and his inability to figure out why Selina really left him. Let me suggest Pyg, The Chase, Constantine, The Question, The Party would have been a smoother ordering of nightmares (which is not to say that nightmares should be linear or build on themselves, of course, but the narrative picture might have been better served by pretending that's how this case would work). Master Bruce was omitted because the character sucks, but he'd go after Pyg.

Finale: The dual/parallel construction of the two "dances" is, of course, cute and well-done. Thomas pulling the gun and explaining to Bane what would happen to him of course foretells the conclusion - Thomas cheats, Bruce and Selina cheat, and Bane gets shot. It's poetry. Likewise, the nightmare foretells the means to the conclusion - Bruce needs to find Selina and realize his fear is unfounded before he can heal himself up and take back Gotham. Of course, the construction, as Bruce explains it, is that he has to face his worst fear, not his worst truth. Bruce's fear - that he can't love Selina - is absurd on its face and stands in opposition to so many things that Bruce has gone through. And one hopes that after this is all over, he can realize that and be a happier, more well-adjusted Batman than the ******* that appears in so many DC books right now.

I might have one more Nightmares post in me - comparing it to Zur-en-Arrh and Last Rites. Maybe in the morning - I might accidentally read the entire Grant Morrison Omnibus v1 to prepare for that

[millernumber1]

Constantine: Obviously the art rocked. Constantine makes sense as a "guide" Bruce's mind might conjure to help him figure out what is going on. The nightmare is honestly the most pedestrian of all of them - Bruce worries that Selina might die because she joins his quest.

The Question: This might be my favorite nightmare. The Question is the perfect interrogator for Bruce to create to question Selina about his version of why Selina left him. Fornes's art is sublime and well-suited to the tone of the piece. Bruce seems to have a very strong sense of self in this nightmare - he knows how people see him and his vow. The nightmare illustrates how wrecked Bruce was by the substance of Selina's note, but also how hollow the note really was. It wasn't the real reason, and Bruce knew that, but he can't figure out what the real reason is.

The Chase: This is obviously primarily an art piece (and a fantastic one at that). The substance of the nightmare is, I assume, the randomness of the Joker (and his enemies generally?). Batman will go to extraordinary lengths to catch the bad guy, and he'll have an utterly insane reason for the crimes (this is a nice pairing with the Constantine story - Two Face's crime is equally bizarre and there's no real reason behind either Selina's death in the nightmare or Dick's brain injury in the "real" world). I kind of think if we'd had the chase then Constantine that the flow would have been better.

The Bachelorette Party: This was easily the most fun issue. Lois and Selina, even Bruce's version of them, are just a hoot. Everything in the Fortress of Solitude is gold and King would be well-suited to writing a Catwoman/Lois ongoing. Unsurprisingly, Amanda Connor is ideally suited for the tone of the party (and the absurdity of Bruce and Clark's night in). The nightmare is a bit more of the same - Bruce can't handle not being Batman. The variation here, that Bruce may have driven Selina to that conclusion to avoid the boredom of married life, is new. It fits in with the Question nightmare and his inability to figure out why Selina really left him. Let me suggest Pyg, The Chase, Constantine, The Question, The Party would have been a smoother ordering of nightmares (which is not to say that nightmares should be linear or build on themselves, of course, but the narrative picture might have been better served by pretending that's how this case would work). Master Bruce was omitted because the character sucks, but he'd go after Pyg.

Finale: The dual/parallel construction of the two "dances" is, of course, cute and well-done. Thomas pulling the gun and explaining to Bane what would happen to him of course foretells the conclusion - Thomas cheats, Bruce and Selina cheat, and Bane gets shot. It's poetry. Likewise, the nightmare foretells the means to the conclusion - Bruce needs to find Selina and realize his fear is unfounded before he can heal himself up and take back Gotham. Of course, the construction, as Bruce explains it, is that he has to face his worst fear, not his worst truth. Bruce's fear - that he can't love Selina - is absurd on its face and stands in opposition to so many things that Bruce has gone through. And one hopes that after this is all over, he can realize that and be a happier, more well-adjusted Batman than the ******* that appears in so many DC books right now.

I might have one more Nightmares post in me - comparing it to Zur-en-Arrh and Last Rites. Maybe in the morning - I might accidentally read the entire Grant Morrison Omnibus v1 to prepare for that

I suppose #63's plot is pedestrian in terms of the fears - but I think the question it asks is still central to the run.

The question of why Selina really left Bruce in 50 is a vexed one. Because the Selina here isn't really Selina - it's Batman's idea of Selina, and I agree with her later on that he has difficulty truly seeing her. The point, naturally, is that Batman fears his own love, not necessarily Selina's love, but that doesn't truly answer the question of why she left. My guess is the reasons were complex and not monocausal, which is nicely realized.

To me, the Joker Chase was more a play on a couple of themes. Most obviously, there's the roadrunner/heart monitor joke/plot point. Which actually has a nicely serious thematic commentary that Batman cannot truly stop crime - but he tries to stop it every night. Which is expounded a bit more in Annual #4, Every Day. Second, though, there's the fact that the whole issue is a descent, ending in the dreamlike chase under water where Batman can breathe submerged without gear - a classic dream image. There is a lot of interesting dream commentary, not to mention the fact that everything from 50-80 is Bane's attempt to bring Batman from the high of 50 down on the knee of misery, a slow motion version of Knightfall.

I think that The Chase is supposed to be an interruption in the flow of the series - it's supposed to be a derailment, because that's what happens in the narrative, as 69 explains. They put him deeper under. From that perspective, I think it works, though it doesn't necessarily make the single issue higher in my experience.

Very nice exposition of the Finale! I pretty much completely agree.

[FBarnhill]

I’m a lot more kinder to King than most here but The Gift arc... I can’t say I don’t understand the criticisms sometimes.

It’s like King doesn’t understand how Booster Gold functions and made a bad Jim Carrey comedy in the form of a comic book. And it’s not like King can’t be funny but he’s going for more wacky and silly than the more natural and situational humor he’s better at. Can’t believe the good reviews that arc got.

[bob.schoonover]

I suppose #63's plot is pedestrian in terms of the fears - but I think the question it asks is still central to the run.

The question of why Selina really left Bruce in 50 is a vexed one. Because the Selina here isn't really Selina - it's Batman's idea of Selina, and I agree with her later on that he has difficulty truly seeing her. The point, naturally, is that Batman fears his own love, not necessarily Selina's love, but that doesn't truly answer the question of why she left. My guess is the reasons were complex and not monocausal, which is nicely realized.

To me, the Joker Chase was more a play on a couple of themes. Most obviously, there's the roadrunner/heart monitor joke/plot point. Which actually has a nicely serious thematic commentary that Batman cannot truly stop crime - but he tries to stop it every night. Which is expounded a bit more in Annual #4, Every Day. Second, though, there's the fact that the whole issue is a descent, ending in the dreamlike chase under water where Batman can breathe submerged without gear - a classic dream image. There is a lot of interesting dream commentary, not to mention the fact that everything from 50-80 is Bane's attempt to bring Batman from the high of 50 down on the knee of misery, a slow motion version of Knightfall.

I think that The Chase is supposed to be an interruption in the flow of the series - it's supposed to be a derailment, because that's what happens in the narrative, as 69 explains. They put him deeper under. From that perspective, I think it works, though it doesn't necessarily make the single issue higher in my experience.

Very nice exposition of the Finale! I pretty much completely agree.

I should clarify (it was clear in my head) - lowercase "nightmare" refers to the specific fear being highlighted, as in "I had the worst dream, I showed up to school naked." The Constantine story was quite good, and I like the implication that Bruce is always evaluating other heroes as to whether or not they lived up to their potential. I just think "if Selina becomes a part of my quest, she might die" is a pretty obvious fear for Bruce (given how many allies have been killed or maimed) and any other hero. It's less specific than Master Bruce (could my circumstances led me down a different path)*, Pyg (will Damian become one of the monsters I face), does Selina love me, can I love her, etc.

I think you're on point w/everything about the Chase. I should re-view it through that lens. It's a very pointed example of Bruce's descent into anger and sadness starting with the wedding. And while I think that the Chase as an interruption works (there's a little too much tell not show in the finale explaining what the plot of the arc was), I believe once we know everything, The Chase (madness of the quest) transitioning to Constantine (the quest will kill Selina) transitioning to The Question (does Selina really love me) transitioning to Bachelor Party (do I really love Selina) is more pointed and feels like how I think Bruce's mind might work. I can appreciate the idea that the nightmares don't transition in an orderly manner, but the rest of the run is so engineered to rhyme, it's a bit off to me to have the nightmares are so jumbled.


*While I think Master Bruce is the least affecting, this run is littered with characters who share aspects of Bruce's origin, upbringing, or motivation. I Am Suicide draws the parallels between he and both Selina and Bane as abandoned children, I Am Gotham covers Gotham Girl and Gotham and how they're motivated by their own almost Crime Alley moment, then you have Thomas (actual Crime Alley moment) and Master Bruce (rich little snot). If my reading of what the point of the story was is correct, I do understand why Master Bruce was chosen - he's the least integrated into the rest of the plot so it's less confusing than if the Nightmare had been Claire or Selina murdering people "in self defense"