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  1. #226
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    In the following video you can see an interesting analysis about King's run.



    I still don't love the run, because I don't love the convolute plots, the psychic manipulations, the alternate realities (or at least I don't think they fit to Batman) and I still think he wrote the love story with Selina more like a bad fanfiction than a good comic book (at least to me); but that doesn't alter the fact that the writer is skillful.

  2. #227
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    In the following video you can see an interesting analysis about King's run.



    I still don't love the run, because I don't love the convolute plots, the psychic manipulations, the alternate realities (or at least I don't think they fit to Batman) and I still think he wrote the love story with Selina more like a bad fanfiction than a good comic book (at least to me); but that doesn't alter the fact that the writer is skillful.
    I've seen that video, and I think it's quite a good analysis of King's work!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I like your view on how time works in the world where The Gentle Man fights, though I would have prefered an explicit explanation in the story, I think there are enough hints to make your point pretty plausible. I have a feeling that there are going to be some interesting discussions on what comes next, especially in stuff like the wedding and Knightmares



    Great point! We're going full on Bane's and later Thomas's plan from here on out.
    One reason I thought of that was that basically from here on out, we'll be talking forward and backwards about every arc - how does this plot element feed into a future arc, how is this plot point foreshadowed, etc. It's going to become a lot more non-linear here soon.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  4. #229
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    I heard that catwoman is pregnant.. Is not a joke?

    I saw it reading that Didio is out now.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I actually like the Master Bruce story. The art is cool and it works as a detective short story as we see Batman's process of thought to solve a mystery. The big mistake I see in it is that the answer to the murders was painfully obvious to me and that didn't make the story as engaging as it could have been in my first read, but even then, I really liked the final confrontation between Master Bruce and Batman and the distorted version the first gave about Bruce Wayne's figure.
    When I read the story, the only question I was asking my self the whole time is if King is really going for the obvious twist, which he did.
    Appart from this I'm pretty sure that there has been a similar Batman story, with the same twist published somewhere in the 2000s, were the twist was iirc more surprising.

  6. #231
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    I heard that catwoman is pregnant.. Is not a joke?

    I saw it reading that Didio is out now.
    We are pretty sure that's from the Catwoman 80th Anniversary Special, with the script called "Helena." It's almost certainly a future story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    When I read the story, the only question I was asking my self the whole time is if King is really going for the obvious twist, which he did.
    Appart from this I'm pretty sure that there has been a similar Batman story, with the same twist published somewhere in the 2000s, were the twist was iirc more surprising.
    Yeah, this one didn't feel nearly as well executed as the Brave and the Mold. It's not like there's many really new mystery plot twists - it all depends on whether you are engaged in the story.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  7. #232
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    The "Master Bruce" origin story is probably my least favorite of King's Batman. It just feels rushed and unearned.

  8. #233
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    In the following video you can see an interesting analysis about King's run.



    I still don't love the run, because I don't love the convolute plots, the psychic manipulations, the alternate realities (or at least I don't think they fit to Batman) and I still think he wrote the love story with Selina more like a bad fanfiction than a good comic book (at least to me); but that doesn't alter the fact that the writer is skillful.
    Disturbing intro.

  9. #234
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I was really looking forward to this bit of the re-read of Tom King's Batman because I wondered how would it hold with the passing of the years, especially the wedding issue.

    Batman #44: This issue is excellent. I love both lines of story, past and present, and Joelle Jones is amazing here. Maybe Janín wasn't the best fit to the flashback scenes and someone with a more classic style (Lee Weeks, Jorge Fornes) would have been better, but I think the modern style does help to make those stories feel fresh, though it wouldn't have been my predilection. Tom King does a terrific job at the moment of choosing which old stories to use for the past sequences. They mesh perfectly with the overall story he is trying to tell and it feels like those scenes were made especifically for this issue

    Batman #45-47: I still have a lot of fun with Booster Gold and the crazyness of it all, maybe because I'm familiar with the character thanks to J.M DeMatteis and Giffen's run in Justice League, and Tony S. Daniel does a very good job (I usually find him moving between an average penciller and a good one), so it's an enjoyable story. But, I don't think it fits nicely with Bane's plan. It's way too convoluted and I find it hard to believe that Bane would endanger his very own existence with time travel in the hands of a volatile hero as BG just to start the doubt about the marriage in Selina's mind. When this story is recalled in The Fall and the Fallen, it doesn't exactly make sense as how it ocurred compared to what Thomas Wayne says, but maybe that is because Thomas didn't know everything about the plan and he was assuming certain things. I think it makes sense that Riddler was involved with reconfigurating Skeets, since we saw him work with technology from New Genesis in I Am Bane, so he can deduce how to operate a time travelling robot by looking at it and solving it like some sort of conundrum. That is the logic I got from his riddle in Batman #19 involving a horse. It's interesting that just like in Everyone Loves Ivy, we get a reference to an old Superman story

    DC Nation #0: Tom King and Clay Mann make a terrifying Joker in just 8 pages, nuff said. PS: I think when Joker says "a banana told me" he is making a joke about Bane's penis (put some pants Bane!)

    Batman#48-49: I can get a little saturated with Joker, but I love everything about this two part story, from the dialogue about chaos and God, to the exchange between Joker and Selina, which also makes me think about those old Batman stories where the Batman's rogues would do team ups to challenge Batman and that would be their main concern instead of killing hundreds of citizens. I do like how the Killing Joke is used to give more substance to the story

    Batman #50: The (in)famous wedding, depending on who you ask. I want to leave the controversy surrounding the hype and marketing that was done to focus in the actual comicbook issue. I think the scenes drawn by Mikel Janín work (though I'm not a fan of the fish eye effect used in the kissing scene) and they take you through an interesting set of emotions. Also, the final page works perfectly for me. But the letter pages ... not so much. I love the illustrations, but they don't follow any type of storyline, they are just a mix of nice art. They could have been references to older stories, different decades of the character, etcetera. But at the end there's no cohesion. Some are reminescent of other stories, some are made just for the comic, and so on and on. The letters are nice, but a little forced at times. A mixed issue, but I think at least it works in the overall story
    Last edited by Chubistian; 02-27-2020 at 01:57 PM.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  10. #235
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I was really looking forward to this bit of the re-read of Tom King's Batman because I wondered how would it hold with the passing of the years, especially the wedding issue.

    Batman #44: This issue is excellent. I love both lines of story, past and present, and Joelle Jones is amazing here. Maybe Janín wasn't the best fit to the flashback scenes and someone with a more classic style (Lee Weeks, Jorge Fornes) would have been better, but I think the modern style does help to make those stories feel fresh, though it wouldn't have been my predilection. Tom King does a terrific job at the moment of choosing which old stories to use for the past sequences. They mesh perfectly with the overall story he is trying to tell and it feels like those scenes were made especifically for this issue

    Batman #45-47: I still have a lot of fun with Booster Gold and the crazyness of it all, maybe because I'm familiar with the character thanks to J.M DeMatteis and Giffen's run in Justice League, and Tony S. Daniel does a very good job (I usually find him moving between an average penciller and a good one), so it's an enjoyable story. But, I don't think it fits nicely with Bane's plan. It's way too convoluted and I find it hard to believe that Bane would endanger his very own existence with time travel in the hands of a volatile hero as BG just to start the doubt about the marriage in Selina's mind. When this story is recalled in The Fall and the Fallen, it doesn't exactly make sense as how it ocurred compared to what Thomas Wayne says, but maybe that is because Thomas didn't know everything about the plan and he was assuming certain things. I think it makes sense that Riddler was involved with reconfigurating Skeets, since we saw him work with technology from New Genesis in I Am Bane, so he can deduce how to operate a time travelling robot by looking at it and solving it like some sort of conundrum. That is the logic I got from his riddle in Batman #19 involving a horse. It's interesting that just like in Everyone Loves Ivy, we get a reference to an old Superman story

    DC Nation #0: Tom King and Clay Mann make a terrifying Joker in just 8 pages, nuff said. PS: I think when Joker says "a banana told me" he is making a joke about Bane's penis (put some pants Bane!)

    Batman#48-49: I can get a little saturated with Joker, but I love everything about this two part story, from the dialogue about chaos and God, to the exchange between Joker and Selina, which also makes me think about those old Batman stories where the Batman's rogues would do team ups to challenge Batman and that would be their main concern instead of killing hundreds of citizens. I do like how the Killing Joke is used to give more substance to the story

    Batman #50: The (in)famous wedding, depending on who you ask. I want to leave the controversy surrounding the hype and marketing that was done to focus in the actual comicbook issue. I think the scenes drawn by Mikel Janín work (though I'm not a fan of the fish eye effect used in the kissing scene) and they take you through an interesting set of emotions. Also, the final page works perfectly for me. But the letter pages ... not so much. I love the illustrations, but they don't follow any type of storyline, they are just a mix of nice art. They could have been references to older stories, different decades of the character, etcetera. But at the end there's no cohesion. Some are reminescent of other stories, some are made just for the comic, and so on and on. The letters are nice, but a little forced at times. A mixed issue, but I think at least it works in the overall story
    Sorry I forgot to get this week's discussion started, but thanks for starting it up, Chubistian!

    This is one of the best-written parts of the run, agreed. I bought the Wedding Album on sale recently, and much as I am still REALLY torn on the questions of the wedding issue itself, from "should King have chosen to structure the whole run this way" to "why are there all these pinups that aren't really that great except for the Lee Weeks one, which seriously was like 50% of why I bought the Wedding Album in the first place" (the other 50% was probably because I own the Superman Wedding Album, and I wanted them to have friends on my shelf ) - issues 44 , 48-50 are incredibly powerful. And some of Janin's best work.

    44 is so meta, and so full of continuity. I really wish people would say something other than "Tom King doesn't know/care about continuity" when they critique him. Yes, he gets some details wrong, or changes some things. But he's clearly marinated in both Batman comics and criticism and fandom for years, and this is the type of issue that really reflects that. And I think the particular issues chosen here are so resonant, so powerful for the story King's telling about Batman and Catwoman - who they are and how they came to be (to bowdlerize some Frank Miller). I actually think Janin does very well with the flashbacks - it's really cool to see all those classic looks in Janin's hyper modern style. Though I liked Clay Mann's versions of some of them better.

    I just...don't like The Gift, though. It doesn't make much sense to me, I don't generally like timeline loops that end up not really mattering, I don't have a connection to Booster Gold, and I don't really enjoy Tony Daniel's art.

    DC Nation #0 is a very well done story. Some people hostile to King's run have said he writes Joker like he's pretending to be insane - but eh. I think it works very well, as someone who hates and fears the Joker, and doesn't really like seeing him in stories. I like how sparingly King used him, and except for War of Jokes and Riddles, I think he was pretty perfect - actually making jokes, instead of just laughing and going with joke "themes".

    The Best Man is truly fantastic. From the St. Augustine-themactic exploration in the first half, to the "new scene every page" Joker/Catwoman exchange that really shows Selina's past, it's so well done.

    I love the Janin parts of The Wedding. Even moreso because the Wedding Album formats it so that you can see the beautiful symmetry that King and Janin created between the two, from the first pages, to the heartstoppingly painful rooftop jumps at the end. And as Chubistian says, I don't like the letter pages - but more for the illustrations than the letters. Except, as mentioned above, for the Weeks page, they're simply not well done artistically. The Finch and Gerads pieces are really wobbley reworkings of pages they already did, and nearly every other piece is an inferior example of the creator's work, with a few exceptions (Becky Cloonan, Tony Daniel, of all people for me, Amanda Conner, Kubert, and Capullo). There's no emotional journey, there is the theme of "Batman and Catwoman being playful/romantic", but it never feels good in context.

    I think we should talk about the fallout of the marketing and the buildup, though. Because, looking back at it two years later, and enduring the absolute firestorm of hatred for the last year and a half of it, it's really...questionable, I think. Maybe King brought fans to the height of anticipation, and then plunged them into the depths of despair, in addition to Batman. I don't think it was worth it, though I personally adore the story from this point on.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  11. #236
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I didn't express myself right. I didn't want to talk about the marketing of the wedding in my first post, but I don't have any problem discussing it! I think my opinion hasn't change because I'm still of the idea that there was no wrong with the hype, because it helps the surprise, if there wasn't any promotion, no one would believe that the wedding was for real. What really bothered me was the marketing by having a huge amount of variant covers, many limited editions, prelude issues, a wedding album edition, etcetera. DC know how comicbook collecting works, so they knew what they were doing wasn't fair, but a cheap way of grabbing more bucks. Who came out with the idea of making more money out of issue #50? Who was in favor of it? Against it? Well, the behind the scenes of the fiasco will probably remain hidden forever.

    I agree completely with you about Tom King knowing continuity and what to chose from it. I have come to notice that when a comicbook writer is blamed with not reading comics, it usually just mean that they don't have the same version about a character that the reader who is criticizing said writer.
    Last edited by Chubistian; 02-27-2020 at 06:46 PM.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  12. #237
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I didn't express myself right. I didn't want to talk about the marketing of the wedding in my first post, but I don't have any problem discussing it! I think my opinion hasn't change because I'm still of the idea that there was no wrong with the hype, because it helps the surprise, if there wasn't any promotion, no one would believe that the wedding was for real. What really bothered me was the marketing by having a huge amount of variant covers, many limited editions, prelude issues, a wedding album edition, etcetera. DC know how comicbook collecting works, so they knew what they were doing wasn't fair, but a cheap way of grabbing more bucks. Who came out with the idea of making more money out of issue #50? Who was in favor of it? Against it? Well, the behind the scenes of the fiasco will probably remain hidden forever.

    I agree completely with you about Tom King knowing continuity and what to chose from it. I have come to notice that when a comicbook writer is blamed with not reading comics, it usually just mean that they don't have the same version about a character that the reader who is criticizing said writer.
    At this time, I think there was nothing wrong with the story as a whole. However, it broke the community, and made having an open discussion pretty close to impossible, sadly (thus the existence of this thread). I don't know how I feel about that. This is still the only Batman run that has made me actually truly, deeply love Bruce as a character. But it's also one that merely mentioning it in a lot of places leads to huge amounts of frothing at the mouth - and I don't think all of the anger is entirely wrong. I myself was extremely angry when I read #50 the first time. I think it works, and the Janin sections are a beautiful work by itself. And I love the Wedding Album that collects all the covers and the script for 44. I do know that an explosion of expensive covers and "anniversary" issues isn't healthy for the market - but it's hard to tell what is healthy these days, sadly.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  13. #238
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    At this time, I think there was nothing wrong with the story as a whole. However, it broke the community, and made having an open discussion pretty close to impossible, sadly (thus the existence of this thread). I don't know how I feel about that. This is still the only Batman run that has made me actually truly, deeply love Bruce as a character. But it's also one that merely mentioning it in a lot of places leads to huge amounts of frothing at the mouth - and I don't think all of the anger is entirely wrong. I myself was extremely angry when I read #50 the first time. I think it works, and the Janin sections are a beautiful work by itself. And I love the Wedding Album that collects all the covers and the script for 44. I do know that an explosion of expensive covers and "anniversary" issues isn't healthy for the market - but it's hard to tell what is healthy these days, sadly.
    I have high hopes that in a few years Tom King’s run in Batman can be discussed in a healthier way, just like Morrison or Snyder/Capullo’s are discussed, where of course there are radical commentaries that don’t add anything to the analysis, but at least a conversation can be held
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  14. #239
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I have high hopes that in a few years Tom King’s run in Batman can be discussed in a healthier way, just like Morrison or Snyder/Capullo’s are discussed, where of course there are radical commentaries that don’t add anything to the analysis, but at least a conversation can be held
    I hope so too, and part of my goal in this thread is to maintain continuity of discussion so that people who discover the run have something to find in the archives of the internet in a few years, instead of all just a bunch of rage.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  15. #240
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    This part of the run is where things really started to fall apart between King and fandom, I think. Personally I appreciate what he was doing on an individual story basis, but looking back on it my feelings generally are "what was he thinking?" "what was DC thinking?" This is some crazy-ass stuff!

    Issue 44 was a little drab for me, upon rereading it, but I did appreciate the callbacks to continuity. At the time I first read it, this issue made the wedding feel like a real thing that was going to happen. It had many of the beats you would expect to have happen for an event that really is going to happen and really is going to have a big impact. Knowing how it all works out, though, the issue is just a big tease, kind of a waste of time. So much so that it makes me wonder if King was undecided about whether the wedding was really going to happen when he wrote this one.

    Incidentally, now I am also thinking about Thomas Wayne spying on Selena as she takes her wedding dress. He was aware of the whole situation. I really wish that he had been present in one of the panels somewhere, even as a figure in silhouette. It would have had more impact that way when it was revealed later on.

    The Gift is the prelude to Knightmares, when you think about it. Its the first purely meta thing that King has done with Batman during his run. Interesting that it happened as a result of one of his friends trying to do him a big favor for Batman - completely nonsensical - Booster is giving his Bruce a gift by showing him how important it is that his parents died. Umm ... thanks? And how would the actual Bruce ever know about this gift anyhow? Still a Batman story, but its really setting up Heroes in Crisis and that whole fiasco.

    And HiC was a fiasco. I cannot imagine how that was pitched or how it got approved in the first place. One of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" I guess.

    Best man and the "wedding" issue again picked up the storyline. These were good, and they are certainly enjoyable to re-read. But again, knowing what I know now, this would have been a perfect opportunity to foreshadow Thomas' involvement. Really not seeing the drawback in at least showing that someone was watching over the happenings. Missed opportunity.
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