Tom King Batman: Reread & Bat/Cat Appreciation 2020

[bob.schoonover]

It’s been a while, but I don’t recall Bane of the Demon alluding Thomas Wayne as a possible father, at least not directly. It does name an american doctor as a possibility though. Later Gotham Knights would use that to put Thomas Wayne explicitly as the best shot to the true identity of Bane’s father. With the revelation of King Snake as Bane’s father, I think that plot was closed in a good way, by using another of Dixon’s creations. I think the “are we brothers” mystery between Bruce and Bane was totally unnecessary though

Yeah, in either Bane of the Demon or Legacy they imply there are four reasonable candidates for Bane's father, including Thomas.

I don't have any faith in DC doing it, but it'd be nice if they do a Scott Beatty Gotham Knights collection (I think 37-49) - I really enjoyed the Bane and Huntress stories therein.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, in either Bane of the Demon or Legacy they imply there are four reasonable candidates for Bane's father, including Thomas.

I don't have any faith in DC doing it, but it'd be nice if they do a Scott Beatty Gotham Knights collection (I think 37-49) - I really enjoyed the Bane and Huntress stories therein.

This sounds like a discussion that would be great in the https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ciation-Thread , where I'm having some really great conversations about the whole era of Batman including Bane's creation and Gotham Knights! I personally liked the Huntress story reasonably well, especially as it helps set up where Huntress is in Hush and then Birds of Prey, but the way Steph was treated just made me sad.

[gregpersons]

I don't envy DC trying to figure out to keep Bane relevant post-Knightfall. Unlike the other rogues, his strongest showing was his first story arc, in terms of accomplishment. He broke the Batman right out of the gate. You then run into the problem, what do you do with a villain who knows Batman's secret identity and has proved himself capable of defeating him? If they continually come into conflict and Bane loses, then his credibility is gone. He's the one hit wonder of the rogues gallery. But he can't keep breaking Batman's back or putting him out of commission for years at a time!

I think they worked around it quite nicely for the first several years. Bane felt like there was an asterisk beside both his victory over Batman and his defeat to Jean Paul Valley because of the Venom. He kept his distance a bit from Bruce because deep down he knew he couldn't take him in a fair fight. And making him Ra's al Ghul's second choice for his heir was a stroke of genius--it played off Bane's post-Venom inferiority complex. And of course Ra's basically doing it to provoke Batman.

The allusion to Bane's parentage was a mistake in my opinion. It doesn't paint Thomas Wayne in a great light. With regard to Bane's father being a criminal, his crime was taking part in the revolution against the government. So there were allusions that Thomas Wayne maybe went there to do some medical charity work and supported the revolution with his money.

Was the first reference to this in Gotham Knights or Bane of the Demon? Because that story, by Chuck Dixon, kicks off with Bane trying to discover his parentage, and Thomas Wayne is hinted at. And Ra's al Ghul laughs uncontrollably when he discovers who Bane's real father is.

I can't remember which story first, so I don't know if Gotham Knights was picking up on that thread or if it was the other way around?

I just re-read these like a month ago so it's fresh on my mind as I re-read King. To answer your question, it's first teased at in Bane of the Demon, then expanded on in the Gotham Knights arc (where the loop is closed and they find out that Thomas is ... NOT the father.)

I just think it's interesting that Bane and Thomas have intersected before King's run -- and, similar to King's run, the Gotham Knights arc about "Is Thomas the father of Bane?" shakes Bruce's foundation a bit, though not nearly to the degree as King's.

[millernumber1]

So, this week's discussion is on The Button, The Brave and the Mold, Every Epilogue is a Prelude, Good Boy, Pway For Me (21-24, Annual #1, Batman/Elmer Fudd #1) - quite a big range of things happening. From the minute-long opening of The Button, with its brutal Zoom beatdown, to the elegiac and disturbing Swamp Thing one-shot (probably my favorite King/Gerads collaboration), to the Proposal, the Eisner-winning story of Ace the Bathound, and the bogglingly successful Elmer Fudd crossover - what do you think of this strange collection of shorts?

[Chubistian]

So, this week's discussion is on The Button, The Brave and the Mold, Every Epilogue is a Prelude, Good Boy, Pway For Me (21-24, Annual #1, Batman/Elmer Fudd #1) - quite a big range of things happening. From the minute-long opening of The Button, with its brutal Zoom beatdown, to the elegiac and disturbing Swamp Thing one-shot (probably my favorite King/Gerads collaboration), to the Proposal, the Eisner-winning story of Ace the Bathound, and the bogglingly successful Elmer Fudd crossover - what do you think of this strange collection of shorts?

The Brave and the Mold, Good Boy and Pway For Me are some of my favorite stories in this long run. The Brave and the Mold must be one of the most successful one-and-done stories in Tom King's Batman and it packs one of the most meaningful scenes in the entire first year of Batman Rebirth without losing that selfcontained style. The philosophy in the matters of life and death and the insecurity behind Bruce's mask that explodes in the final page speaks greatly of the then current state of Batman's mind and why it's so fundamental to him to take that big step regarding Selina in issue #24. I think I have talked a lot on how I think The Button, though an average story in my view, gains a lot thanks to the post-wedding stuff and everything regarding Thomas Wayne. Yet, I think what pulls me off the story is the change between Tom King and Joshua Williamson in the writing duties, because though they may be pretty clear in the story they want to tell, their narrative choices are just way too different. Initially, I thought that it was a wasted opportunity to make Claire the big focus to Bruce's decision in #24, but with the twist in #50, it made a lot of sense to have her convince Bruce to take that jump. Also, Clay Mann totally killed it in that issue. And my words couldn't even begin to make justice to Gerads's art in #23.

Good Boy is such a simple yet masterful story that with a few pages makes you feel a lot of empathy for Bruce and the world he thrives in and his relationship with both, Alfred and Ace, truly helps showing a more human side of Batman that sometimes get lost to some writers.

Pway For Me is a cocktail of film noir, Looney Tunes and Batman that I bet nobody expected to work as greatly as it did and that shows that disruptive elements can work in the hands of a competent writer that has something new to tell. This one-shot also put Lee Weeks in the pedestal he deserved and it was the start to many great Batman works he did alongside King that has made him one of the best Batman pencillers ever. Some jokes get lost to me because, first, I wasn't a big fan of Looney Tunes, I was more of a casual spectator as a kid, and second because I watched the cartoons dubbed to latin spanish, so I'm not familiar with the original expressions, but I get a lot of kicks out of this one-shot full of easter eggs. The second part of the comic is also a lot of fun, though not as innovative nor as brilliant as the first one, but it's fine. It accomplishes its objective

[Scott Taylor]

The Button was a really good story that never paid off in any way. It was referenced a little bit in Doomsday Clock and maybe in a couple of other places. Guess Batman just decided he had better things to do? I really expected it to have more of an impact, especially when the new Rorschach shows up at the Batcave. But nope.

[David Walton]

The Button was a really good story that never paid off in any way. It was referenced a little bit in Doomsday Clock and maybe in a couple of other places. Guess Batman just decided he had better things to do? I really expected it to have more of an impact, especially when the new Rorschach shows up at the Batcave. But nope.

Maybe that's why I've never felt much of a connection to "The Button"? I like the concept, the art is great, love Bruce and Barry's interaction, and it's still just...okay. Overall I've been pretty disappointed with how the larger Rebirth concept played out, given the way DC took Wally off the stage after having re-introduced him as their next phase's foundational piece. It feels like there are a lot of concepts that got thrown out there and then they decided midstream to go with yet another reboot before this one had fully taken hold.

"The Brave and the Mold" is BRILLIANT. If it had been written in the 80s, we'd be discussing it in the same breath as WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

"Good Boy" always brings a smile to my face. King writes such a wonderful Alfred! And I love how oblivious Bruce is to all the effort Alfred put into giving him Ace as a present. "Wasn't I a good boy?" Ha!

"Pway for Me" is so great. Nothing should work and somehow everything does.

"Every Epilogue is a Prelude" also great. It's amazing the way King shuffles Claire off-panel for long stretches and yet when she shows up again it's impactful and it feels like she never left. King is masterful at bringing things back into play just when you think he'd forgotten. I'm especially fond of the way Claire gives Batman the advice he gave Hank. And the line, "Hank wanted to be a hero. I just wanted to be Hank." So devastating.

[millernumber1]

The Button was a really good story that never paid off in any way. It was referenced a little bit in Doomsday Clock and maybe in a couple of other places. Guess Batman just decided he had better things to do? I really expected it to have more of an impact, especially when the new Rorschach shows up at the Batcave. But nope.

Maybe I was biased because of my character preferences, but the change to the plot about Tim Drake coming back (it was originally supposed to start the process, and Tim is still on the cover of the fourth part of the crossover, but the whole thing was restructured and erased) really makes The Button feel completely pointless. It has a lot more point now that Flashpoint Batman is the Big Bad of King's run, but as a standalone story? Nope.

"The Brave and the Mold" is BRILLIANT. If it had been written in the 80s, we'd be discussing it in the same breath as WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

"Good Boy" always brings a smile to my face. King writes such a wonderful Alfred! And I love how oblivious Bruce is to all the effort Alfred put into giving him Ace as a present. "Wasn't I a good boy?" Ha!

"Pway for Me" is so great. Nothing should work and somehow everything does.

"Every Epilogue is a Prelude" also great. It's amazing the way King shuffles Claire off-panel for long stretches and yet when she shows up again it's impactful and it feels like she never left. King is masterful at bringing things back into play just when you think he'd forgotten. I'm especially fond of the way Claire gives Batman the advice he gave Hank. And the line, "Hank wanted to be a hero. I just wanted to be Hank." So devastating.

I dunno about Watchmen and DKR, but I would definitely hold it up next to masterpieces like Detective Comics Annual #1. And I think it's really, really vital when it comes to Alfred's death.

Good Boy originally didn't work that well for me - I'm not a dog person, and it's taken a bit for me to get used to shorts. But I love it dearly now - the humor and emotion are just so well done. I actually don't own it in the Annual - I own the Walmart Holiday Special where they reprinted it - and I got it signed by King and Finch!

The Proposal caught me by surprise. And I have to admit - one of the reasons I adore issue #32 so much is that it addresses the fact that Bruce demands in his first proposal, and that struck me as wrong.

[David Walton]

Maybe I was biased because of my character preferences, but the change to the plot about Tim Drake coming back (it was originally supposed to start the process, and Tim is still on the cover of the fourth part of the crossover, but the whole thing was restructured and erased) really makes The Button feel completely pointless. It has a lot more point now that Flashpoint Batman is the Big Bad of King's run, but as a standalone story? Nope.

I just don't understand why DC approaches reboots the way they do. You had a good ten year stretch where the universe was fairly logical, cohesive, and had an impressive and constantly expanding history behind it. And then...I just don't understand. Cut to the Rebirth era where we're stuck in this halfway place where Barry is in his mid-twenties and never married Iris but he remembers Wally? I mean it's just such a mess. They should have just gone with Hypertime years ago which had a logical foundation for its 'everything happened' approach. As opposed to, "It happened, but it didn't, but it still kinda-sort did"?

I dunno about Watchmen and DKR, but I would definitely hold it up next to masterpieces like Detective Comics Annual #1. And I think it's really, really vital when it comes to Alfred's death.

I'll be honest, I think there's a lot of comics that are at the same level as WATCHMEN and DKR. The late 80s ushered in a whole new standard in terms of quality. It's just those works tend to be held on a pedestal by comparison because they were some of the first to reach that level of craft and sophistication.

Good Boy originally didn't work that well for me - I'm not a dog person, and it's taken a bit for me to get used to shorts. But I love it dearly now - the humor and emotion are just so well done. I actually don't own it in the Annual - I own the Walmart Holiday Special where they reprinted it - and I got it signed by King and Finch!

Very cool!

The Proposal caught me by surprise. And I have to admit - one of the reasons I adore issue #32 so much is that it addresses the fact that Bruce demands in his first proposal, and that struck me as wrong.

Do you mean that he makes Selina hear his story before he'll let her give an answer?

[millernumber1]

I just don't understand why DC approaches reboots the way they do. You had a good ten year stretch where the universe was fairly logical, cohesive, and had an impressive and constantly expanding history behind it. And then...I just don't understand. Cut to the Rebirth era where we're stuck in this halfway place where Barry is in his mid-twenties and never married Iris but he remembers Wally? I mean it's just such a mess. They should have just gone with Hypertime years ago which had a logical foundation for its 'everything happened' approach. As opposed to, "It happened, but it didn't, but it still kinda-sort did"?

I'll be honest, I think there's a lot of comics that are at the same level as WATCHMEN and DKR. The late 80s ushered in a whole new standard in terms of quality. It's just those works tend to be held on a pedestal by comparison because they were some of the first to reach that level of craft and sophistication.

Do you mean that he makes Selina hear his story before he'll let her give an answer?

I actually like the Rebirth approach, which is that everything can happen, even if we don't necessarily always know what did. Better than the n52, which "everything you love happened," but then "BAM no it didn't, Zero Year erases a ton of stuff you loved."

That's probably very true. I just don't hear many people admitting it.

No, I'm talking about the wording of his first proposal - instead of "Will you marry me," he says "Marry me", which struck me as weird and wrong. So having Selina insist that he asks, instead of demanding, was very moving to me.

[David Walton]

I actually like the Rebirth approach, which is that everything can happen, even if we don't necessarily always know what did. Better than the n52, which "everything you love happened," but then "BAM no it didn't, Zero Year erases a ton of stuff you loved."

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like that Rebirth folded a lot of post-Crisis concepts and characters back into the DC. I just wish they'd committed to it fully, given my biases? I really wanted to see Wally back in action and restoring memories but it didn't play out quite that way. So yes, I vastly prefer REBIRTH to New 52, I just felt like they were going somewhere bigger with it that never panned out. And 5G sounds like something completely different.

[That's probably very true. I just don't hear many people admitting it.

I mean, it's the same with television. Quality has improved across the board. But for the most part you don't see television buffs saying everything has been crap since MASH and no actor will ever live up to Alan Alda.

So why are we, as comic fans, so caught up in the idea that the medium peaked around 1987?

No, I'm talking about the wording of his first proposal - instead of "Will you marry me," he says "Marry me", which struck me as weird and wrong. So having Selina insist that he asks, instead of demanding, was very moving to me.

Ah, got it.

[millernumber1]

I mean, don't get me wrong, I like that Rebirth folded a lot of post-Crisis concepts and characters back into the DC. I just wish they'd committed to it fully, given my biases? I really wanted to see Wally back in action and restoring memories but it didn't play out quite that way. So yes, I vastly prefer REBIRTH to New 52, I just felt like they were going somewhere bigger with it that never panned out. And 5G sounds like something completely different.

I mean, it's the same with television. Quality has improved across the board. But for the most part you don't see television buffs saying everything has been crap since MASH and no actor will ever live up to Alan Alda.

So why are we, as comic fans, so caught up in the idea that the medium peaked around 1987?

I'm with you there. Give Steph and Cass back their times as Robin and Batgirls, give Tim back his origin (and his personality), bunches of stuff. But given the desert that was most of the n52, Rebirth was a huge contrast for the better.

I still think 5G is probably going to be an event, rather than a year-long or more status quo. But I'm also trying not to speculate too much on it, because I don't want to get mad about things that don't happen.

I'm not sure why people are sure that the medium peaked in the 80s. I do think that DKR and Watchmen are novel length works that can be read and appreciated for quality by non-comics readers (I'd throw Year One and Born Again in there too, because I prefer them to DKR), whereas a lot of others are either too short (short stories have virtually no real respect in culture today), or too tied to other things. Or too long (Alias is a bit too long to be one novel, I think).

[Chubistian]

It's interesting that in Batman #24, Claire asks Batman if he could fly if he wanted to and he answers affirmatively and later, in Batman Files #1, in the short story by Tom King and Mikel Janín, Superman presents a kryptonite that can guarantee that option and Bruce, by rejecting it, acquires the object that will end up saving Claire's life. I don't know if this was planned from the beginning or if it was just a coincidence, but it caught my attention

[millernumber1]

It's interesting that in Batman #24, Claire asks Batman if he could fly if he wanted to and he answers affirmatively and later, in Batman Files #1, in the short story by Tom King and Mikel Janín, Superman presents a kryptonite that can guarantee that option and Bruce, by rejecting it, acquires the object that will end up saving Claire's life. I don't know if this was planned from the beginning or if it was just a coincidence, but it caught my attention

I think that it was either a longterm plan (which I think King likes to do), or something he picked up later and worked into the story.

I need to listen to the latest King interview - I hear he drops a lot of interesting information about his run and BatCat: https://wordballoon.blogspot.com/202...m-strange.html

[lilyrose]

I think that it was either a longterm plan (which I think King likes to do), or something he picked up later and worked into the story.

I need to listen to the latest King interview - I hear he drops a lot of interesting information about his run and BatCat: https://wordballoon.blogspot.com/202...m-strange.html

I just listened to the first half hour- He confirms that Bat/Cat is spanning their entire 50 year relationship and their whole life together. I don't know if it he talks any more about it later.

So, basically this is how we're getting Helena. If he does it like this he can say anything happens at any point (he can probably have them marry at some point too). But it also means none of it will affect the main Batman canon either.

So, now what I'd like to know is- what was his original plan for something that was going to change Batman forever? Remember when he said that was going to happen at the end of his run? Obviously that's not happening now, so can we at least know what it was supposed to be?

And I think this means we really have no idea if this means Bruce is retiring in order to raise his daughter for 5G...that's clearly speculation on our part, because whatever's going on in this Bat/Cat book won't affect anything.