Tom King Batman: Reread & Bat/Cat Appreciation 2020

[David Walton]

The Joker best man storyline has some of King's best dialogue, not surprising given that religion seems to come as naturally to him as romance. He really does his strongest work in those areas.

"The Gift" is, well, frustrating. The opening with Green Lantern is so twisted and memorable that it deserves a better story. Booster had just lectured Superman in Action Comics about not making changes to the timeline, which is hard to reconcile with his behavior here. Also, there have been so many good alternate reality/ dream sequence stories where Bruce's parents survived and this doesn't measure up to 99% of them. On the plus side, they fit in Catwoman's look from Batman Returns.

The wedding issue is pretty good if you completely overlook the absurdity of all this stuff coming together exactly as planned. Selina's fiercely independent so it's perfectly conceivable that she wouldn't make Batman's continued existence her primary concern or that she'd still be pissed with Holly about damn near killing Bruce. But this isn't a King thing, it's fiction across the board these days. All the evil plots involve villains knowing exactly how every person will react to any given situation without any deviation until the very end.

[David Walton]

On another note, I think there are interesting parallels between the hype surrounding Batman's wedding and Spider-Man's.

With King, it seems to have been a fake-out from the get-go. That said, I think he had every intention of building up to an actual wedding in #100 and DC vetoed the idea. That's pure speculation though.

With Spider-Man, DeFalco actually intended to have Mary Jane leave Peter at the altar, but Stan Lee wanted to marry them in the comic strip and Jim Shooter saw the opportunity for a synchronized publicity stunt. So you get the comic strip wedding, ASM Annual #21, and the marketing event where actors played the parts at Shea Stadium. And the funny thing is that DeFalco, who never wanted them to get married, ended up falling in love with the concept and wrote more stories with Peter and MJ married than any other writer (when you include Spider-Girl).

So it's interesting how the marketing narrative can get out of control for better and for worse (personally I'm glad Spider-Man married!). I'd agree that DC's biggest mistake was all the tie-ins. On some level that's tacky given the outcome. But I don't fault them for hyping the wedding itself.

[millernumber1]

This part of the run is where things really started to fall apart between King and fandom, I think. Personally I appreciate what he was doing on an individual story basis, but looking back on it my feelings generally are "what was he thinking?" "what was DC thinking?" This is some crazy-ass stuff!

Issue 44 was a little drab for me, upon rereading it, but I did appreciate the callbacks to continuity. At the time I first read it, this issue made the wedding feel like a real thing that was going to happen. It had many of the beats you would expect to have happen for an event that really is going to happen and really is going to have a big impact. Knowing how it all works out, though, the issue is just a big tease, kind of a waste of time. So much so that it makes me wonder if King was undecided about whether the wedding was really going to happen when he wrote this one.

Incidentally, now I am also thinking about Thomas Wayne spying on Selena as she takes her wedding dress. He was aware of the whole situation. I really wish that he had been present in one of the panels somewhere, even as a figure in silhouette. It would have had more impact that way when it was revealed later on.

The Gift is the prelude to Knightmares, when you think about it. Its the first purely meta thing that King has done with Batman during his run. Interesting that it happened as a result of one of his friends trying to do him a big favor for Batman - completely nonsensical - Booster is giving his Bruce a gift by showing him how important it is that his parents died. Umm ... thanks? And how would the actual Bruce ever know about this gift anyhow? Still a Batman story, but its really setting up Heroes in Crisis and that whole fiasco.

And HiC was a fiasco. I cannot imagine how that was pitched or how it got approved in the first place. One of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" I guess.

Best man and the "wedding" issue again picked up the storyline. These were good, and they are certainly enjoyable to re-read. But again, knowing what I know now, this would have been a perfect opportunity to foreshadow Thomas' involvement. Really not seeing the drawback in at least showing that someone was watching over the happenings. Missed opportunity.

I do think that it's the start of the general hatred, though as I've said, it was actually the start of me getting really invested. I don't honestly see how it's that much crazier than what Morrison or Snyder did, but there was something about those two runs and how they showed Batman being more grandiosely powerful that I think made up for the ultimate tragedy/nihilism of the ending of those runs.

Issue 44 actually improved for me on rereading. The first time, I was struggling to figure out what it meant. But as I reread it, especially with the later repetitions of those flashback scenes, and seeing where King was going with the emotional connection between Bat and Cat, I find it intensely moving today. Much as

I think that showing Thomas like that would have been too obvious. But it might have been okay.

Interesting idea that The Gift is similar to Knightmares - except that it's about Booster, not Batman, and that just didn't work for me.

I think HiC is still a good book, though it caused more anger than pleasure in the fandom, and thus was not a good move. I am curious to know what would have happened if Didio had given King a different character than Wally. But I can't think who wouldn't have had a fanbase really mad about it.

[millernumber1]

On another note, I think there are interesting parallels between the hype surrounding Batman's wedding and Spider-Man's.

With King, it seems to have been a fake-out from the get-go. That said, I think he had every intention of building up to an actual wedding in #100 and DC vetoed the idea. That's pure speculation though.

With Spider-Man, DeFalco actually intended to have Mary Jane leave Peter at the altar, but Stan Lee wanted to marry them in the comic strip and Jim Shooter saw the opportunity for a synchronized publicity stunt. So you get the comic strip wedding, ASM Annual #21, and the marketing event where actors played the parts at Shea Stadium. And the funny thing is that DeFalco, who never wanted them to get married, ended up falling in love with the concept and wrote more stories with Peter and MJ married than any other writer (when you include Spider-Girl).

So it's interesting how the marketing narrative can get out of control. I'd agree that DC's biggest mistake was all the tie-ins. On some level that's tacky given the outcome. But I don't fault them for hyping the wedding itself.

I have no clue what King's original plan would have been - and he seems to be very open to rewriting his plans, given what happened with Thomas in City of Bane. I do think it would be nice to have an actual wedding. I loved the ending of the run, but it would have been something a bit more solid for fans to hang onto. But then, given how vicious the fandom seemed to be, it probably would have been held up as "King is still destroying Batman even after he's done." Sigh.

I do hope that Bat/Cat as a married couple in the 12 issue series can gain enough fans so that we will have a solid foundation in the future. Because right now, what Tynion's doing shows that "they're married in their hearts" isn't cutting it for fans on both sides of the shipping discussion.

[millernumber1]

The Joker best man storyline has some of King's best dialogue, not surprising given that religion seems to come as naturally to him as romance. He really does his strongest work in those areas.

"The Gift" is, well, frustrating. The opening with Green Lantern is so twisted and memorable that it deserves a better story. Booster had just lectured Superman in Action Comics about not making changes to the timeline, which is hard to reconcile with his behavior here. Also, there have been so many good alternate reality/ dream sequence stories where Bruce's parents survived and this doesn't measure up to 99% of them. On the plus side, they fit in Catwoman's look from Batman Returns.

The wedding issue is pretty good if you completely overlook the absurdity of all this stuff coming together exactly as planned. Selina's fiercely independent so it's perfectly conceivable that she wouldn't make Batman's continued existence her primary concern or that she'd still be pissed with Holly about damn near killing Bruce. But this isn't a King thing, it's fiction across the board these days. All the evil plots involve villains knowing exactly how every person will react to any given situation without any deviation until the very end.

I do think that King tends to play the "everything fits together neatly like a puzzle" too much in his Batman run - it happens no less than three times, with three different characters - though he does usually throw some wrenches in the plan later. But that's why I think it works much better for King to do 12 issue miniseries, rather than trying to hit 100 issue runs. You simply can't control all the details you need to for things to fall into place for 100 issues the same way you can with 12 issues.

That being said, I don't really have any problems with the way the plot works. I don't have any really lingering questions, except for "why did they cut the run short" at this point.

[David Walton]

I have no clue what King's original plan would have been - and he seems to be very open to rewriting his plans, given what happened with Thomas in City of Bane. I do think it would be nice to have an actual wedding. I loved the ending of the run, but it would have been something a bit more solid for fans to hang onto. But then, given how vicious the fandom seemed to be, it probably would have been held up as "King is still destroying Batman even after he's done." Sigh.

I do hope that Bat/Cat as a married couple in the 12 issue series can gain enough fans so that we will have a solid foundation in the future. Because right now, what Tynion's doing shows that "they're married in their hearts" isn't cutting it for fans on both sides of the shipping discussion.

I think there's an inherent anti-marriage bias at the top levels in comic book companies based on the mistaken perception that you lose dramatic potential because the hero no longer has romantic options. But the trade-off is more than worth it because you get a weightier history that helps readers invest in a character and their relationship long-term.

[Katana500]

I think there's an inherent anti-marriage bias at the top levels in comic book companies based on the mistaken perception that you lose dramatic potential because the hero no longer has romantic options. But the trade-off is more than worth it because you get a weightier history that helps readers invest in a character and their relationship long-term.

aren't many long term marriages in comics in general. I dont know why writers seem so against it. Superman being married doesn't seem to hinder the character so I think it would be an asset to Batman aswell. I think writers like using will they wont they relationships as a crutch.

[Gotham citizen]

I think because they aren't able to write an interesting relationship about two married characters.

[Katana500]

I think because they aren't able to write an interesting relationship about two married characters.

I always find Clark and Lois's relationship pretty interesting. But I guess ive never really read them much when they havent' been married so I dont know what it was like before.

[David Walton]

aren't many long term marriages in comics in general. I dont know why writers seem so against it. Superman being married doesn't seem to hinder the character so I think it would be an asset to Batman aswell. I think writers like using will they wont they relationships as a crutch.

I think in a lot of ways it's a throwback to a time when the target audience was teenage boys, so of course the assumption was that marriage would be less interesting than constant romantic shake-ups. Funny thing is I was a kid when Spider-Man married and I loved it. So I think the conventional wisdom is wrong.

[Gotham citizen]

I always find Clark and Lois's relationship pretty interesting. But I guess ive never really read them much when they havent' been married so I dont know what it was like before.

I can talk only about the X-men, Batman and (a little) also about Spiderman, but I saw often the writers write the consolidated love stories more like they were a soap opera, than real relationship and this hurts the relationship on the long term.

[lilyrose]

I do hope that Bat/Cat as a married couple in the 12 issue series can gain enough fans so that we will have a solid foundation in the future. Because right now, what Tynion's doing shows that "they're married in their hearts" isn't cutting it for fans on both sides of the shipping discussion.

You can say that again. It's obvious this guy wants to break them up and he said in an interview he prefers Catwoman as a villain. But he also said it's kind of hard to write them knowing King's Bat/Cat series is coming, so maybe there is some kind of order behind the scenes not to break them up permanently for the moment. Still, I wish King had just married them for real. The whole married in our hearts thing can be dismissed SO easily by any other writer. And was that really his original intention? To have them fall back in love and decide NOT to marry? That would have been what was going to happen in his original 100 issue run by the end, after the disaster of the failed wedding and the fans' anger?

Somehow, I doubt it. I think he wanted to marry them for real. And I'm guessing, since Bat/Cat spans 50 years or whatever, that he's going to have them marry at some point in their lives in that series.

[sifighter]

You know my problem was never with Tom King writing around this time, my problem was with DC. I’m not sure what exactly King’s plan was for Selina and Bruce, maybe we will see it in his Mini-series, but the problem I took with it was how DC hyped it up, sold tie-ins, and one-shots to the wedding and then whether it was DC or King that decided it they bailed out and that was irritating for A book that did half a year(25-50 I think was half a year to a year, unsure if it double shipped) of build up and I don’t think the book ever recovered for me when it came to that. I know it wasn’t Kong’s writing that did it for me because I enjoy his other series but it felt like so much corporate and marketing interference really hampered his story.

[David Walton]

Yeah, I think Batman Annual #2 makes King's intentions for the marriage clear.

But between the 5G plans and Didio's departure, it's anyone's guess what the future holds.

I do wonder how King would have handled the actual wedding--perhaps a public one to counter the failed private ceremony?

[millernumber1]

You can say that again. It's obvious this guy wants to break them up and he said in an interview he prefers Catwoman as a villain. But he also said it's kind of hard to write them knowing King's Bat/Cat series is coming, so maybe there is some kind of order behind the scenes not to break them up permanently for the moment. Still, I wish King had just married them for real. The whole married in our hearts thing can be dismissed SO easily by any other writer. And was that really his original intention? To have them fall back in love and decide NOT to marry? That would have been what was going to happen in his original 100 issue run by the end, after the disaster of the failed wedding and the fans' anger?

Somehow, I doubt it. I think he wanted to marry them for real. And I'm guessing, since Bat/Cat spans 50 years or whatever, that he's going to have them marry at some point in their lives in that series.

Side note: this is a King appreciation thread, so I don't want to get too caught up in discussions/disagreements over other writers. However, I think claiming that Tynion wants to break up Bat/Cat after he's explicitly said he doesn't in interviews, even if you don't trust him, isn't helpful. Let's take creator's at their word, when possible, please.