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  1. #406
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugiwara View Post
    She should not have been able to do that, but it's obvious that this writer doesn't care about power levels.
    The same Silver Sable did hold her own against cosmic powered Victorious, had Agent Zero taking down an armored Doom while a Doom without armor defeated freaking Taskmaster.

    And in Iron Man by same writer, Iron Man defeated Terrax with ease. I know the poor guy is a jobber, but a herald should not been defeated in the first two pages of a comics like he was a mere member of the Wrecking Crew.
    What you gentlemen are speaking to is the issue (trend) I was talking about. If folks pull their hair out over the egregiousness of the Silver Surfer armbar. What do they feel about this.

  2. #407
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    What's your opinion on Silver Sable being able to body-slam Blue Marvel? Do YOU think she should have been able to do that, considering Adam is a flying brick and has 100+ class strength and is in the same league as Thor and Hulk?
    Nope. It's in the same category as Batman KOing Wonder Woman with a kick to the gut or Black Panther arm barring the Silver Surfer. Top tier characters sometimes do job. They job probably more than weaker characters.

    That said, marvel has established that street level characters can judo throw class 100 beings. Doesn't make a lick of sense that they can... but comic book physics apparently state otherwise.

    hideko-takata-hulk (1).jpg

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  3. #408
    Mighty Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Nope. It's in the same category as Batman KOing Wonder Woman with a kick to the gut or Black Panther arm barring the Silver Surfer. Top tier characters sometimes do job. They job probably more than weaker characters.

    That said, marvel has established that street level characters can judo throw class 100 beings. Doesn't make a lick of sense that they can... but comic book physics apparently state otherwise.

    hideko-takata-hulk (1).jpg

    hulk-captain-america.jpg
    I remember seeing that panel where Batman kicked Wonder Woman, and she had an expression on her face like she was in pain. I said to myself "Oh, come on!"
    Black Panther - Champion of Bast
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  4. #409
    Astonishing Member mugiwara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post

    That said, marvel has established that street level characters can judo throw class 100 beings. Doesn't make a lick of sense that they can... but comic book physics apparently state otherwise.
    You only haff to use mensch's strenght against him, ja?

    Bringing back the old, killing the young: that's the Marvel way

  5. #410
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It'll require him to not come up short when it's time to actually resolve the issue. We're still obviously in the middle of it all. Adam's not going to close the black hole in this issue, then spend the next couple eating a sandwich. It's a big enough problem that it'll take a couple issues and probably require a bit of help. And if any of his other white counter parts were in his place, the story would go exactly the same way. If this were Quasar, he would have failed too. Any hero at THIS point in the story would have.
    Again, you missed the point.

    Instead of Blue Marvel and Blue Marvel alone failing, why couldn't the negative outcome been more equally distributed? Instead of Blue's limitless power coming up short, why not establish that Doom's calculations were off because they failed to take into account an unknown variable? Like you said, it's an unpredictable rift in the time/space continuum. Certainly there is a margin for error, even for two great minds like Doom's and Adam's. Write the story that way and no one complains. That development naturally cascades into an ending where Doom has to be involved to help remedy his error.

    But, no, that's not the telling that we got. Instead we're left questioning Adam's effectiveness and his claim to an unlimited power source. Doom doesn't come away looking like the incompetent one. Adam does.

    That we're talking about a black hole doesn't change things as much as you think. They vary in size and magnitude, but even black holes are not unlimited energy sponges or gravitational singularities that suck dry all forms of energy. How do we know this? Simple, black holes, even the most largest and most horrifically powerful, all expel fast moving jets of material, likely plasma or other exotic particles, even as they are gorging on mass and light. That tells you that the event horizon of a black hole isn't absolute. It has a limit to what it can absorb and how strong its gravitational pull is. As such, this isn't the old thought experiment of what happens when an immovable object meets an irresistible force. Shield and spear paradox this is not. This is more like what happens when you squeeze a sponge in the ocean. Adam in this scenario was supposed to be the ocean. "Limitless" even in comics should mean what it connotes. Adam's well -- the event horizon between the positive and negative matter universes -- is limitless and should have been treated accordingly.
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    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 09-29-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  6. #411
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Again, you missed the point.

    Instead of Blue Marvel and Blue Marvel alone failing, why couldn't the negative outcome been more equally distributed? Instead of Blue's limitless power coming up short, why not establish that Doom's calculations were off because they failed to take into account an unknown variable? Like you said, it's an unpredictable rift in the time/space continuum. Certainly there is a margin for error, even for two great minds like Doom's and Adam's. Write the story that way and no one complains. That development naturally cascades into an ending where Doom has to be involved to help remedy his error.

    But, no, that's not the telling that we got. instead we're left questioning Adam's effectiveness and his claim to an unlimited power source. Doom doesn't come away looking like the incompetent one. Adam does.

    That we're talking about a black hole doesn't change things as much as you think. They vary in size and magnitude, but even black holes are not unlimited energy sponges or gravitational singularities that suck dry all forms of energy. How do we know this? Simple, black holes, even the most largest and most horrifically powerful, all expel fast moving jets of material, likely plasma or other exotic particles, even as they are gorging on mass and light. That tells you that the event horizon of a black hole isn't absolute. It has a limit to what it can absorb and how strong its gravitational pull is. As such, this isn't the old thought experiment of what happens when an immovable object meets an irresistible force. Shield and spear paradox this is not. This is more like what happens when you squeeze a sponge in the ocean. Adam in this scenario was supposed to be the ocean. "Limitless" even in comics should mean what it connotes. Adam's well -- the event horizon between the positive and negative matter universes -- is limitless and should have been treated accordingly.
    To me, the fact that Anti-Man is more powerful than Blue Marvel means we're not talking about limitless power. If they both had limitless power they would be equally powerful. But if Blue Marvel is less powerful than Anti-Man, then it can't be limitless. He has a limit somewhere below Anti-Man. Again, in comic terms unless you're talking about an infinity gauntlet you're not really talking limitless... just a LOT.

  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    To me, the fact that Anti-Man is more powerful than Blue Marvel means we're not talking about limitless power. If they both had limitless power they would be equally powerful. But if Blue Marvel is less powerful than Anti-Man, then it can't be limitless. He has a limit somewhere below Anti-Man. Again, in comic terms unless you're talking about an infinity gauntlet you're not really talking limitless... just a LOT.
    In fairness, Anti-Man was flipping crazy

  8. #413
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    In fairness, Anti-Man was flipping crazy
    Limitless power, or near limitless power can do that to a person.

  9. #414
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    To me, the fact that Anti-Man is more powerful than Blue Marvel means we're not talking about limitless power. If they both had limitless power they would be equally powerful. But if Blue Marvel is less powerful than Anti-Man, then it can't be limitless. He has a limit somewhere below Anti-Man. Again, in comic terms unless you're talking about an infinity gauntlet you're not really talking limitless... just a LOT.
    Interesting that you'd see the IG as limitless, when it isn't. Remember, the IG as originally conceived reflected only 6 of the key aspects of a specific cosmos. Only 6. I would argue that there is much more to some of the other cosmos that preceded it and those that come after it than Reality, Space, Time, Power, Soul and the Mind. Or put another way, if the Fifth Cosmos -- the Cosmos of Magic -- had comprised the Infinity Stones, it's very likely that we'd have other aspects that govern the structure of the cosmos. Reality, Space, Time, Power, Soul and the Mind would not be absolute or limitless. That writers continue to treat the Infinity Stones as having the same efficacy in Eternity's cosmos is more a logical fallacy and plot device than anything else. We go with it because editors don't really care about that sort of thing.

    As for Anti-Man appearing more powerful than Blue Marvel... remember, that is a Ewing thing, not a Grevioux thing. If Anti-Man truly was more powerful than Adam, the US, if not the planet, would have been destroyed back in 1962-63. There wasn't anyone else to stop Conner. And Adam didn't do anything special to stop him. A few good punches. Ewing has routinely diminished Adam's power levels and elevated Anti-Man's. Someone who actually wasn't afraid to feature Blue Marvel as an alpha or potentially flagship character would have written it differently. Clearly, Ewing had either different intentions or different marching orders. Each subsequent appearance of Adam has pretty much followed suit.
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 09-28-2020 at 03:29 PM.

  10. #415
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Limitless power, or near limitless power can do that to a person.
    Again, it wasn't the power that drove Conner insane. It was the act of instantly gaining heightened cosmic scale perceptions, coupled with having his body converted into an antimatter particle state that drove him over the edge.

    And again, Anti-Man himself isn't a limitless energy construct. The energy reservoir that both he and Adam taps is what is limitless. Adam synched with him easily enough and dispersed him in the Grevioux telling. That wouldn't be possible if Anti-Man's energy form was limitless.
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 09-28-2020 at 03:31 PM.

  11. #416
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Again, it wasn't the power that drove Conner insane. It was the act of instantly gaining heightened cosmic scale perceptions, coupled with having his body converted into an antimatter particle state that drove him over the edge.

    And again, Anti-Man himself isn't a limitless energy construct. The energy reservoir that both he and Adam taps is what is limitless. Adam synched with him easily enough and dispersed him in the Grevioux telling. That wouldn't be possible if Anti-Man's energy form was limitless.
    Couldn't an argument be made that while the wellspring of power is limitless, Adam himself can still fatigue?

    Otherwise, you're gonna run into 'the Sentry problem' a lot more than I think you want.

  12. #417
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Couldn't an argument be made that while the wellspring of power is limitless, Adam himself can still fatigue?

    Otherwise, you're gonna run into 'the Sentry problem' a lot more than I think you want.
    Questionable, due to his write up stating that his whole body is now powered matter/antimatter catalyst. If that energy is limitless, then technically so should he be.

  13. #418
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Questionable, due to his write up stating that his whole body is now powered matter/antimatter catalyst. If that energy is limitless, then technically so should he be.
    Marvel not going to want a walking infinity gauntlet though ... if the idea conceptually was that he was going to have limitless power, then he was basically asking for that aspect of him to be retconned if they wanted a viable usable character. Even the Sentrys and Silver Surfers, as powerful as they were, had limits.

  14. #419
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    Yeah, there has to be a limit somewhere.

    Mind you, given the teaser art for The King In Black, I think Sentry is going to be killed off again. Or ruined further.

    This is why, as a big a fan as I am of Adam, I don't want him to get thought of as hard to write.

    I think another problem with retcon powerhouses (seems to be something I'm really into, the retcon guys), they may be harder to write, as they are relatively new characters? No history or deeply established supporting cast?

    In Adam's defense at least, his Mighty Avengers/Ultimates appearances did flesh him out a lot better than the Sentry was.

  15. #420
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Last_Czarnian View Post
    Yeah, there has to be a limit somewhere.

    Mind you, given the teaser art for The King In Black, I think Sentry is going to be killed off again. Or ruined further.

    This is why, as a big a fan as I am of Adam, I don't want him to get thought of as hard to write.

    I think another problem with retcon powerhouses (seems to be something I'm really into, the retcon guys), they may be harder to write, as they are relatively new characters? No history or deeply established supporting cast?

    In Adam's defense at least, his Mighty Avengers/Ultimates appearances did flesh him out a lot better than the Sentry was.
    Sentry is a very easy character to kill off, because like many cosmic level characters he can be resurrected with little or no effort. Feel bad for the Sentry fans though. Because yeah... I'm pretty sure he's there just to act as a sacrifical lamb to Knull.

    As fo Adam... for a relatively minor character (no offense to Adam... I'm a fan), I think he's actually been fleshed out surprisingly well. He's got a descent back story, a family and supporting cast, a love interest, and an arch villain. There are characters who have had a lot more panel time than him which don't have anywhere near as much world building.

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