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  1. #421
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Marvel not going to want a walking infinity gauntlet though ... if the idea conceptually was that he was going to have limitless power, then he was basically asking for that aspect of him to be retconned if they wanted a viable usable character. Even the Sentrys and Silver Surfers, as powerful as they were, had limits.
    Agree to disagree, I think everything is based on execution and intent. Marvel can definitely keep Adam a powerhouse hero. You just can't make him solely an earth based hero. I would love to see Adam as the leader of a team of earth heroes that truly delve into the cosmic. I guess something like The Ultimates, but closer to SHIELD. I think this would enable Marvel to keep Adam right where he's at. Knock his power too far down and anything below Thor level, he will be lost in the scrum of many other characters. Adam being a minor character is subjective.

  2. #422
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Agree to disagree, I think everything is based on execution and intent. Marvel can definitely keep Adam a powerhouse hero. You just can't make him solely an earth based hero. I would love to see Adam as the leader of a team of earth heroes that truly delve into the cosmic. I guess something like The Ultimates, but closer to SHIELD. I think this would enable Marvel to keep Adam right where he's at. Knock his power too far down and anything below Thor level, he will be lost in the scrum of many other characters. Adam being a minor character is subjective.
    Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Having a hero with limitless power even in a cosmic setting will get old pretty quick even in a cosmic setting. In order for him to have viable threats you'll start needing to invent a bunch of other characters with limitless power, and at a certain point that just gets ridiculous.

  3. #423
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Having a hero with limitless power even in a cosmic setting will get old pretty quick even in a cosmic setting. In order for him to have viable threats you'll start needing to invent a bunch of other characters with limitless power, and at a certain point that just gets ridiculous.
    You and I both know that all it takes is a creative writer to work their craft and give us imaginative stories where even Adam is challenged. If we see a Thor one-shoting Galactus type stories. We can have big, and good stories with Blue Marvel.

  4. #424
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    You and I both know that all it takes is a creative writer to work their craft and give us imaginative stories where even Adam is challenged. If we see a Thor one-shoting Galactus type stories. We can have big, and good stories with Blue Marvel.
    A creative writer should no better than to put his character in that position in the first place. Powerful YES... but limitless is a whole other thing. It's like deciding to turn the Living Tribunal or the One Above All into a super hero one day.... just doesn't work at least as super hero fiction. You can go a Dr. Manhatten route where he's not really a super hero, but that's a very different sort of thing.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    You and I both know that all it takes is a creative writer to work their craft and give us imaginative stories where even Adam is challenged. If we see a Thor one-shoting Galactus type stories. We can have big, and good stories with Blue Marvel.
    Again, plenty of Thor fans have expressed dislike of Thor doing that.

    Thor and Blue are in the top league of superheroes. Not much more needs be said, IMO

  6. #426
    Mighty Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Last_Czarnian View Post
    Yeah, there has to be a limit somewhere.

    Mind you, given the teaser art for The King In Black, I think Sentry is going to be killed off again. Or ruined further.

    This is why, as a big a fan as I am of Adam, I don't want him to get thought of as hard to write.

    I think another problem with retcon powerhouses (seems to be something I'm really into, the retcon guys), they may be harder to write, as they are relatively new characters? No history or deeply established supporting cast?

    In Adam's defense at least, his Mighty Avengers/Ultimates appearances did flesh him out a lot better than the Sentry was.
    Does the Incredible Hulk have a limit?
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  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Does the Incredible Hulk have a limit?
    Strictly speaking, Hulk isn't a good guy

  8. #428
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Does the Incredible Hulk have a limit?
    The cool thing about the Hulk is there is a built in cap to his strength that's variable. Meaning he can be as strong as the story requires. He's not 100% strength 24/7 so he can lose anytime he needs to. But under the right circumstances his strength can be a plot device too.

    He's a well designed top tier character because there's a built in reason why his power levels can basically be as high or as low (up to a point at least) as the story needs without having to dumb him down.

  9. #429
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The cool thing about the Hulk is there is a built in cap to his strength that's variable. Meaning he can be as strong as the story requires. He's not 100% strength 24/7 so he can lose anytime he needs to. But under the right circumstances his strength can be a plot device too.

    He's a well designed top tier character because there's a built in reason why his power levels can basically be as high or as low (up to a point at least) as the story needs without having to dumb him down.
    Bro, writers may write a cap to his abilities but he's billed as having unlimited strength. Is it crazy to conceive, yes but that is the Hulk's thing. This is no different than how a good writer can do, and has done for Blue Marvel. He just doesn't need to be dropped to The Thing levels of power.

  10. #430
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Bro, writers may write a cap to his abilities but he's billed as having unlimited strength. Is it crazy to conceive, yes but that is the Hulk's thing. This is no different than how a good writer can do, and has done for Blue Marvel. He just doesn't need to be dropped to The Thing levels of power.
    Hulk may be billed with unlimited strength, but the point being he's written with limits all the time. And if it's the same with Adam where he's billed with unlimited power (albeint a different kind of power) but in a practical sense he has limits then I guess that's fine too.

    And no one is saying Adam or Hulk for that mattter needs to be dropped to Thing level... people are just suggesting it shouldn't be unlimited. Thor level (which is very very high despite not being limitless) works just fine.

  11. #431
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Couldn't an argument be made that while the wellspring of power is limitless, Adam himself can still fatigue?

    Otherwise, you're gonna run into 'the Sentry problem' a lot more than I think you want.
    That's just it, Adam is meant to have "the Sentry problem." He was created to be in the same tier and face his version of the same endowments and challenges that arise out of same. That has to be established and reinforced as often as necessary on panel.

    But the challenge of how Adam deals with having that level of power has already been set in stone. Adam has been portrayed as being deathly afraid of exercising that kind of power. That's all the limitation you need. There won't be OP abuse, since Adam would likely only draw on the power once every blue moon, if ever. If it makes the dynamic more plausible, there are other stop-gaps that can be implemented -- like a potential risk of a cosmic cataclysm resulting from Adam drawing far too much antimatter energy into the positive universe and further upsetting the baryon asymmetry of all of reality.

    There are ways they could write this so that when Adam needs to deal with a small black hole, he can without some nonsense about him running out of "negative energy." If there are gravitons or photons in the known universe, he'll always have a source of antiparticles that he can manipulate and convert into energy. I'd even go as far as to suggest that gamma rays are also firmly on his menu of sources of energy, since antimatter annihilation yields gamma rays. Adam simply cannot be depleted the way that the Doom folks are penning in their story.

    The editor and the writer should have sat down and figured out a different approach. Again, I think it's as simple as saying that both Doom and Adam failed to take into account an unknown variable in their math. Easy peasy. Doc Ock still shows up at the end and the story moves on from there without it seeming like Adam alone was the weak link in the chain.

  12. #432
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    That's just it, Adam is meant to have "the Sentry problem." He was created to be in the same tier and face his version of the same endowments and challenges that arise out of same. That has to be established and reinforced as often as necessary on panel.
    I think you misunderstand. The Sentry problem is exactly what you're dealing with right now. It's not about how the character deals with his power, but rather, how writers cope with having a character of such power in their stories. The answer is that they usually don't, hence the multitude of times Sentry was written out of a story, or failed to live up to his potential. I mean, Bob got lawn darted by She-Hulk, kicked in the groin by Herc, was made off to run and cry from fights on numerous occasions. Yeah, he *also* had some good moments, and BM certainly has though he lacks the high profile 'help' of a writer like Bendis, but the only time Sentry has ever really lived up to his billing is when they're using him as a villain. It's how you got the Bob who was a competent hero in his own right from his minis and early appearances becoming an accident-prone dork who didn't know how to use his own powers in Mighty Avengers.
    Last edited by Tendrin; 10-01-2020 at 10:11 PM.

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    I think you misunderstand. The Sentry problem is exactly what you're dealing with right now. It's not about how the character deals with his power, but rather, how writers cope with having a character of such power in their stories. The answer is that they usually don't, hence the multitude of times Sentry was written out of a story, or failed to live up to his potential. I mean, Bob got lawn darted by She-Hulk, kicked in the groin by Herc, was made off to run and cry from fights on numerous occasions. Yeah, he *also* had some good moments, and BM certainly has though he lacks the high profile 'help' of a writer like Bendis, but the only time Sentry has ever really lived up to his billing is when they're using him as a villain. It's how you got the Bob who was a competent hero in his own right from his minis and early appearances becoming an accident-prone dork who didn't know how to use his own powers in Mighty Avengers.
    Fair points, all.

    I reckon Sentry's a dead man (for a bit again, at least) after King In Black anyways. Might be for the best.

    I really think Adam needs another mini. Not an ongoing that turns INTO a mini because of sales, but a decent mini, a la Sentry Reborn. Just dedicate half a dozen, maybe eight issues, or even an OGN to raising his profile from a niche character. Blow some wind into his sails.

  14. #434
    Mighty Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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  15. #435
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    I think you misunderstand. The Sentry problem is exactly what you're dealing with right now. It's not about how the character deals with his power, but rather, how writers cope with having a character of such power in their stories.
    Ahhh, gotcha. Good point.

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