Blue Marvel Appreciation 2020

[Chris0013]

Mighty Avengers and The Ultimates

And was in the No Road Home limited series as part of an Avengers team.

[Havok83]

Mighty Avengers and The Ultimates

Did Ultimtes count as Avengers though? I thought they were their own team

[ed2962]

Did Ultimtes count as Avengers though? I thought they were their own team

It's weird cuz in the 616 The Ultimates are a separate group although they are made up of mostly former Avengers.

In the Ulimate Line though, they were the Avengers just using a different name.

[JudicatorPrime]

Did Ultimtes count as Avengers though? I thought they were their own team

Technically, the Ultimates team that included Blue Marvel was a separate, unaffiliated team. Neither Avengers, nor Avengers-adjacent, part of the group's mission statement was an expressed need to take unilateral, prophylactic action to address cosmic scale concerns. Action that other teams like the Avengers might not have the freedom, political mandate, power and resources to solve. The team's primary benefactors were the Wakandan and US governments, but aside from T'Challa and Carol being on the team, neither country influenced the team's decisions. Ironically, it was Carol leveraging the Ultimates for her own political ends that led to its demise. T'Challa withheld support and the team collapsed. He felt obligated to pull the plug because the team was simply too powerful to exist as a political tool of any one person or nation.

There were actually two chapters of the Ultimates. The second, Ultimates², was assembled at the behest of Galactus and had agency from him. Galactus appointed America Chavez as the team's leader, a much needed change given that the first team was more of a quorum of equals by design. Inexplicably, Ewing didn't shake up the team roster. At the very least he should have ditched Carol in favor of Jane Thor, or Phoenix, or Sue Storm Richards, or the Sentress, or ... anyone really ... since Carol was the primary reason why the first Ultimates squad failed. Anyway, Ultimates² aided Galactus in his efforts to free Eternity and stop Logos and the First Firmament.

[JudicatorPrime]

Has he ever been an Avenger?

Blue Marvel has never been a member of the main Avengers team. While some argue that every Avengers affiliate team (like Mighty Avengers) brings with it full fledged membership as an Avenger, I would argue that Adam sees it differently. After all, Adam declined Tony Stark's offer to join the main team. He accepted membership with Mighty Avengers because it was perceived to be a franchise that was working on behalf of the community and in the absence of the main Avengers squad.

[Riv86672]

There were actually two chapters of the Ultimates. The second, Ultimates2, was assembled at the behest of Galactus and had agency from him. Galactus appointed America Chavez as the team's leader, a much needed change given that the first team was more of a quorum of equals by design. Inexplicably, Ewing didn't shake up the team roster. At the very least he should have ditched Carol in favor of Jane Thor, or Phoenix, or Sue Storm Richards, or the Sentress, or ... anyone really ... since Carol was the primary reason why the first Ultimates squad failed. Anyway, Ultimates2 aided Galactus in his efforts to free Eternity and stop Logos and the First Firmament.

I was really hoping for a third chapter to the story of this team, something to bring it full circle and deal w. their issues.
And that would’ve worked a lot better if, like you said, Carol had been replaced for the second chapter.

[JudicatorPrime]

I was really hoping for a third chapter to the story of this team, something to bring it full circle and deal w. their issues.
And that would’ve worked a lot better if, like you said, Carol had been replaced for the second chapter.

I would subscribe to an Ultimates³ book in a heartbeat, albeit with some conditions.

[Riv86672]

I would subscribe to an Ultimates³ book in a heartbeat, albeit with some conditions.

What conditions?
I’d def. want the third book to have the cosmic scope of the first two, that’s for sure.

[JudicatorPrime]

What conditions?
I’d def. want the third book to have the cosmic scope of the first two, that’s for sure.

Too many to list, now that I think about it.

My biggest concern would be the writer and their vision for Adam and the team. Adam was created to be on the same level as Thor, Sentry, Hulk and others, but he hasn't been written that way since Grevioux penned him. Whoever writes the book has to commit early on to making Adam the team's heavy hitter. If there are other heavy hitters on the team, then Adam gets pole position as first amongst equals. I don't want excuses as to why that can't happen when Thor can kill Celestials, and Hyperion can move planets, punch the Hulk back into Bruce Banner with one hit, and take out Beyonders. And Sentry is out there taking on half a dozen or so heavy hitters by himself. They only complain when it's Blue Marvel. They only say it can't/shouldn't be done, because it's Blue Marvel. That needs to end.

My second concern is the roster.

Captain Marvel cannot be on the team. She's the reason why it faltered the first time. When you couple that with the shady way she went about claiming the Captain Marvel moniker without touching base with Monica first ... in the real world we would call those red flags. Neither Monica nor Adam would completely trust Carol to be a true ally at the end of the day. She'd never be someone that you'd include in your inner circle, because you'd always wonder if she's operating on her own, separate agenda. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but that's how I see Carol. You might still invite her to the picnic, but best believe she's catching the side eye from your other close friends and family.

I would also bid farewell to Black Panther and MAC. Nothing against them, I just want to make room for characters like Beta Ray Bill, Voyager, Midnight Son, Starbrand (Va-Sohn), Dr. Strange, Darkstar, Graviton, the Shaper of Worlds, Phoenix (Rachel Grey), and Vesper (Raani Jatwinder, telepath/technopath; if not her, then her biological daughter that she shares with Madison Jefferies). Maybe introduce a new Nova Centurion, Quantum band wielding Quasar, or Captain Universe that isn't Kree, but Cree, Lakota, Apache or something like that. John Proudstar wearing some version of the Quantum Bands wouldn't be a bad thing. Maybe the X-men buried his body, but his soul has been travelling the stars all this time. I'd like the new team to feature similarly creative additions.

Lastly, the team is intended to be filled with OP characters. I would hope that would encourage the creative team to steer clear of events where PIS would be needed to rationalize the team's presence. Keep the stories cosmic, and the villains and crises at the end-game level. I don't ever again want to turn the page of a comic to see Blue Marvel get judo tossed by the likes of Silver Sable, or temporarily blinded by a flash grenade.

[Riv86672]

Too many to list, now that I think about it.

My biggest concern would be the writer and their vision for Adam and the team. Adam was created to be on the same level as Thor, Sentry, Hulk and others, but he hasn't been written that way since Grevioux penned him. Whoever writes the book has to commit early on to making Adam the team's heavy hitter. If there are other heavy hitters on the team, then Adam gets pole position as first amongst equals. I don't want excuses as to why that can't happen when Thor can kill Celestials, and Hyperion can move planets, punch the Hulk back into Bruce Banner with one hit, and take out Beyonders. And Sentry is out there taking on half a dozen or so heavy hitters by himself. They only complain when it's Blue Marvel. They only say it can't/shouldn't be done, because it's Blue Marvel. That needs to end.

My second concern is the roster.

Captain Marvel cannot be on the team. She's the reason why it faltered the first time. When you couple that with the shady way she went about claiming the Captain Marvel moniker without touching base with Monica first ... in the real world we would call those red flags. Neither Monica nor Adam would completely trust Carol to be a true ally at the end of the day. She'd never be someone that you'd include in your inner circle, because you'd always wonder if she's operating on her own, separate agenda. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but that's how I see Carol. You might still invite her to the picnic, but best believe she's catching the side eye from your other close friends and family.

I would also bid farewell to Black Panther and MAC. Nothing against them, I just want to make room for characters like Beta Ray Bill, Voyager, Midnight Son, Starbrand (Va-Sohn), Dr. Strange, Darkstar, Graviton, the Shaper of Worlds, Phoenix (Rachel Grey), and Vesper (Raani Jatwinder, telepath/technopath; if not her, then her biological daughter that she shares with Madison Jefferies). Maybe introduce a new Nova Centurion, Quantum band wielding Quasar, or Captain Universe that isn't Kree, but Cree, Lakota, Apache or something like that. John Proudstar wearing some version of the Quantum Bands wouldn't be a bad thing. Maybe the X-men buried his body, but his soul has been travelling the stars all this time. I'd like the new team to feature similarly creative additions.

Lastly, the team is intended to be filled with OP characters. I would hope that would encourage the creative team to steer clear of events where PIS would be needed to rationalize the team's presence. Keep the stories cosmic, and the villains and crises at the end-game level. I don't ever again want to turn the page of a comic to see Blue Marvel get judo tossed by the likes of Silver Sable, or temporarily blinded by a flash grenade.

Well, I’m in agreement w. you across the board.
Adam needs to be written as what he actually is, an elite powerhouse.
Carol? Carol is not a nice person or even all that good no matter how they try and spin her actions.
New members should be powerful and not the usual suspects; John Proudstar is a great choice.
The story needs to have huge scope.

[dkrook]

Too many to list, now that I think about it.

My biggest concern would be the writer and their vision for Adam and the team. Adam was created to be on the same level as Thor, Sentry, Hulk and others, but he hasn't been written that way since Grevioux penned him. Whoever writes the book has to commit early on to making Adam the team's heavy hitter. If there are other heavy hitters on the team, then Adam gets pole position as first amongst equals. I don't want excuses as to why that can't happen when Thor can kill Celestials, and Hyperion can move planets, punch the Hulk back into Bruce Banner with one hit, and take out Beyonders. And Sentry is out there taking on half a dozen or so heavy hitters by himself. They only complain when it's Blue Marvel. They only say it can't/shouldn't be done, because it's Blue Marvel. That needs to end.

My second concern is the roster.

Captain Marvel cannot be on the team. She's the reason why it faltered the first time. When you couple that with the shady way she went about claiming the Captain Marvel moniker without touching base with Monica first ... in the real world we would call those red flags. Neither Monica nor Adam would completely trust Carol to be a true ally at the end of the day. She'd never be someone that you'd include in your inner circle, because you'd always wonder if she's operating on her own, separate agenda. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but that's how I see Carol. You might still invite her to the picnic, but best believe she's catching the side eye from your other close friends and family.

I would also bid farewell to Black Panther and MAC. Nothing against them, I just want to make room for characters like Beta Ray Bill, Voyager, Midnight Son, Starbrand (Va-Sohn), Dr. Strange, Darkstar, Graviton, the Shaper of Worlds, Phoenix (Rachel Grey), and Vesper (Raani Jatwinder, telepath/technopath; if not her, then her biological daughter that she shares with Madison Jefferies). Maybe introduce a new Nova Centurion, Quantum band wielding Quasar, or Captain Universe that isn't Kree, but Cree, Lakota, Apache or something like that. John Proudstar wearing some version of the Quantum Bands wouldn't be a bad thing. Maybe the X-men buried his body, but his soul has been travelling the stars all this time. I'd like the new team to feature similarly creative additions.

Lastly, the team is intended to be filled with OP characters. I would hope that would encourage the creative team to steer clear of events where PIS would be needed to rationalize the team's presence. Keep the stories cosmic, and the villains and crises at the end-game level. I don't ever again want to turn the page of a comic to see Blue Marvel get judo tossed by the likes of Silver Sable, or temporarily blinded by a flash grenade.

You must be talking about his appearance in that trash Doctor Doom book that was out. Hearing it went like is just disgusting bruh! People howled and heckled for year about the Silver Surfer arm-bar and yet some hack-ass writers thought it cool to let HER be able to do that to Adam??!!!! Agreed with 99% of your suggestions. I do admit to wanting to see Black Panther work with Adam in a more organic team setting, hated MAC and Carol's inclusion. Carol smothered the life out of any dynamic energy of the team. Ewing pissed me off with this narrative of MAC being there to check them like she could really beat this team, lol. This group consisted of some of the most trustworthy, and levelheaded heroes in Marvel...!!!! They didn't need her to check a damn thing! I wouldn't mind seeing a brand new Quasar, and Nova brought in. They could bring in Adam Warlock to work together with the core of Adam as leader BP, Monica, and rounding it out I want to Nightmask brought back and used to his potential.

[JudicatorPrime]

You must be talking about his appearance in that trash Doctor Doom book that was out. Hearing it went like is just disgusting bruh! People howled and heckled for year about the Silver Surfer arm-bar and yet some hack-ass writers thought it cool to let HER be able to do that to Adam??!!!! Agreed with 99% of your suggestions. I do admit to wanting to see Black Panther work with Adam in a more organic team setting, hated MAC and Carol's inclusion. Carol smothered the life out of any dynamic energy of the team. Ewing pissed me off with this narrative of MAC being there to check them like she could really beat this team, lol. This group consisted of some of the most trustworthy, and levelheaded heroes in Marvel...!!!! They didn't need her to check a damn thing! I wouldn't mind seeing a brand new Quasar, and Nova brought in. They could bring in Adam Warlock to work together with the core of Adam as leader BP, Monica, and rounding it out I want to Nightmask brought back and used to his potential.

Agreed! Don't even get me started...

When I found out that Adam was going to be in the Doom series my initial thought was, "Uh oh, here we go with some bull****." I knew it was coming. I would have been fine if there was a give and take between Doom and Adam, but they never went toe to toe. Doom got a shot in with a spell that somehow was a billion times more powerful than its original use, but there was absolutely no response from Adam at all. In fact, when next we see Adam, he's wasting time dialoguing. I don't know about you, but if I was in pursuit of someone who in the previous encounter turned a supernova on me that was hotter than seven suns, the next time I'm within range of him he's catching an antimatter blast to the breastplate and coming away with a serious case of obliteration. No talking, no explanations, none of that "I'm a pacifist" crap. I'm unloading and the next issue the author will have to explain how Doom is still alive after I've annihilated 80% of his body mass and thrown Latveria into orbit around the planet Mercury. Doom wants to play with the heat of the sun, well two can play that game. Call me when you're ready to discuss the crisis on the moon. But don't wait, because it's getting hotter than hell on Latveria and my force field won't hold out forever. That's the response that we would have seen from Sentry, Thor, Hyperion, etc., etc. But never Adam. Turning the other cheek just gets you twice accosted and twice disrespected. I'm sick of Marvel writers penning Adam like "the harmless, helpful Negro." This isn't the 1950s. It's 2020 and a man needs to stand up for himself and speak clearly to his enemies in a language that they understand.

Anyway, like I said...don't get me started.

[XPac]

Did Ultimtes count as Avengers though? I thought they were their own team

I don't know if they officially were considered Avengers, but marvel counted them in the Avengers family of books.

When the Squadron Supreme were shown spying on all the Avengers team, the Ultimates were included.

But everyone one of them were previously Avengers if you count Mighty and Young.

[XPac]

I was really hoping for a third chapter to the story of this team, something to bring it full circle and deal w. their issues.
And that would’ve worked a lot better if, like you said, Carol had been replaced for the second chapter.

In hindsight, I think the Ultimates were basially there just to fill the void the Fantastic Four left. If you look back on the book, it felt more like a Fantastic Four book than anything else.

With the plans in place for T'Challa and Carol to rejoin the Avengers, and with the original Fantastic Four returning, that version of the ULtimates at least seemed to run it's course. If we ever see the Ultimates again, it'll probably be the original group from the Ultimate Universe since Ewing bothered to bring them back.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Adam join an Avengers team. We got a secondary Avengers team formed for No Road Home. Stick Adam with Monica and that, and I think you have a pretty solid team.

[Agent Z]

Too many to list, now that I think about it.

My biggest concern would be the writer and their vision for Adam and the team. Adam was created to be on the same level as Thor, Sentry, Hulk and others, but he hasn't been written that way since Grevioux penned him. Whoever writes the book has to commit early on to making Adam the team's heavy hitter. If there are other heavy hitters on the team, then Adam gets pole position as first amongst equals. I don't want excuses as to why that can't happen when Thor can kill Celestials, and Hyperion can move planets, punch the Hulk back into Bruce Banner with one hit, and take out Beyonders. And Sentry is out there taking on half a dozen or so heavy hitters by himself. They only complain when it's Blue Marvel. They only say it can't/shouldn't be done, because it's Blue Marvel. That needs to end.

I think this might be one of those instances a character benefits from being a solo act instead of being on the team. I recently read Tigra's miniseries from the 90s by Christina Z and I found she was much more competent there than in the Avengers where she is generally a damsel in distress or furry fanservice.

When you couple that with the shady way she went about claiming the Captain Marvel moniker without touching base with Monica first ... in the real world we would call those red flags.

I wouldn't hold this against Carol given that Monica did the same thing with the Captain Marvel moniker when she first took it and it wasn't hers to give away in the first place.

I would also bid farewell to Black Panther and MAC. Nothing against them, I just want to make room for characters like Beta Ray Bill, Voyager, Midnight Son, Starbrand (Va-Sohn), Dr. Strange, Darkstar, Graviton, the Shaper of Worlds, Phoenix (Rachel Grey), and Vesper (Raani Jatwinder, telepath/technopath; if not her, then her biological daughter that she shares with Madison Jefferies). Maybe introduce a new Nova Centurion, Quantum band wielding Quasar, or Captain Universe that isn't Kree, but Cree, Lakota, Apache or something like that. John Proudstar wearing some version of the Quantum Bands wouldn't be a bad thing. Maybe the X-men buried his body, but his soul has been travelling the stars all this time. I'd like the new team to feature similarly creative additions.

Not very familiar with most of these characters (aren't Graviton and Midnight's Son villains). I think you'd be better off making an original indigenous character for the new Quasar since Proudstar will inevitably be taken back to the X-books.

Lastly, the team is intended to be filled with OP characters. I would hope that would encourage the creative team to steer clear of events where PIS would be needed to rationalize the team's presence. Keep the stories cosmic, and the villains and crises at the end-game level. I don't ever again want to turn the page of a comic to see Blue Marvel get judo tossed by the likes of Silver Sable, or temporarily blinded by a flash grenade.

Yeah, that's for the best.