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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valentis View Post
    The real leading character would be Rey, followed by Palpatine then Anakin. Palpatine returning made Anakin/Vader's sacrifice to be in vain. Rey defeating Palpatine makes her the most important Jedi to ever live. The most important Jedi is the central character of Star Wars Universe.
    It's not in vain. Anakin killing Palpatine and saving Luke is the redemption for his character and with the death and soon after invalid leadership the Empire is crippled. The Sith religion is also dead as while dark-side users still exist there's no Sith beyond a cripple hooked up to a crane on a planet barely anybody can get to nor knows exists. Palpatine was on deaths door anyways because had Rey not shown up there'd be nobody to take Palpatine's place or jump into let alone anybody he can suck the life out of.

    Unlike Legends, Palpatine would've died anyways not needing a double (or triple) tap. Had Rey not come he wouldn't have had the extra day's worth of life he did. And even then when he did get restored it turns out he's still not up to full strength as Rey pulled a Windu but ended up incinerating him.
    -----------------------------------
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Meh, i don't even care anymore about anything star wars past 1983.

    You should try, it's very relaxing. No more Jar Jar or midichlorians non sense, no more Reyrus Christ and alien sucking Luke.

    Just good ol' Star Wars, how i love it.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Meh, i don't even care anymore about anything star wars past 1983.

    You should try, it's very relaxing. No more Jar Jar or midichlorians non sense, no more Reyrus Christ and alien sucking Luke.

    Just good ol' Star Wars, how i love it.
    But some of us would be unhappy without the post-1983 stuff.
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  4. #64
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Meh, i don't even care anymore about anything star wars past 1983.

    You should try, it's very relaxing. No more Jar Jar or midichlorians non sense, no more Reyrus Christ and alien sucking Luke.

    Just good ol' Star Wars, how i love it.
    The sequel trilogy is the Godfather 3 of the Star Wars saga.
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  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    But some of us would be unhappy without the post-1983 stuff.
    And i'm cool with that. If you enjoy it, great for you. I often make fun of the new movies but i respect that other people have different tastes.

    The sequel trilogy is the Godfather 3 of the Star Wars saga.
    Oh, it's actually way worst. G3 is just a poor movie by itself, it doesn't change what was done before. My two biggest problems with the sequel movies are how the old characters are used and how pointless they made the whole rebel/empire struggle. I can get past how cynically the force awakens was written, i can get past how ridiculously good at everything Rey is and how useless that poor Janitor ended up to be, all that stuff is relevant only to those movies.

    I can get past bad movies. What i call bad movies are called good movies by other and it's all fine. But don't come and shit on what was done before. No, captain emo, you don't need to kill the past. You just have to leave it alone and make your own story.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I think Godfather III would've been more interesting had it gone with the original concept, of Michael vs. Tom, rather than the really confusing Vatican plot. However they couldn't get Duvall, and in the finished film Tom is only briefly mentioned and a son character has a very small role.


    Also Pacino is more post-Scarface overacting Pacino rather than the cold and calculated Michael Corleone of the first two films.
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  7. #67
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Palpatine didnít really win, but the Skywalker/Solos certainly didnít either, and Rey wound up being critically underwritten and schizophrenically characterized.
    And her Non-consensual adoption didn't help matters.
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  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    And her Non-consensual adoption didn't help matters.
    What the what?
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  9. #69
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    I wouldn’t say “Non-consensual adoption.” It’s both a bit loaded but also inaccurate.

    It’s more like stealing the family name with better publicity after all the family members are effectively dead.

    It’s meant to be a symbolic passing of the torch and resurrection of the legacy. It’s just done in a very bad and phony seeming way.

    Rey really should have just been a good Skywalker opposing Kylo as the bad Skywalker. And I think they totally could have just had that kind of reveal go down in TROS even after TLJ tried to burn that bridge.

    Yeah, it would have pissed off TLJ fans, but you can’t tell me it wouldn’t ultimately work just as well, and most likely better, wint the mainstream audiences out there who rolled with the out-of-left-field Palpatine, and I think it solves far more problems would be accepted just as much, and again if not more, with the hardcore fans, and simply be a more fruitful direction overall.

    I mean, right now the entire inter-Trilogy period with the Skywalkers is a bunch of depressing Ben Solo and Palpatine focused nastiness... and there’s simply not that much excitement about Rey going forward either, and very few people buy the “Skywalker” name-taking as much as it arguably *needs* to be bought to work in the long term. Rey Skywalker *would* have reinvigorated her more clearly, and opened up at least some kind of interesting storyline between trilogies not dealing woth the narcissistic Darth Affluenza.

    Now, unfortunately, we’re stuck with Rey Palpatine “Skywalker”, with the biggest comic series before TFA being about how Ben’s self-centeredness shouldn’t be seen as a flaw and we shouldn’t hold the Jedi a Temple massacre against him, and a Morton’s fork dealing with Rey’s parents: they Now have an intrinsically interesting story (arguably more so than her) but we can’t make Palpatine’s Force-less clone and wife have a great story because than they won’t be nobodies anymore.
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  10. #70
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    Luke and Leia are present to give Rey her blessing to be welcomed into the family. She wasn't raised by Palpatine, she wanted nothing to do with him, gives him the double tap, and the Skywalker family be it Ben wanting to be evil with her or Luke and Leia wanting to carry on the Jedi with her regardless made them more of a family than Palpatine ever was. They give her their blessing and she takes the name.

    She didn't steal the name, she was offered it.

    This isn't the middle ages where you have to kill the kids to make sure. She was welcomed into the family.
    -----------------------------------
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Luke and Leia are present to give Rey her blessing to be welcomed into the family. She wasn't raised by Palpatine, she wanted nothing to do with him, gives him the double tap, and the Skywalker family be it Ben wanting to be evil with her or Luke and Leia wanting to carry on the Jedi with her regardless made them more of a family than Palpatine ever was. They give her their blessing and she takes the name.

    She didn't steal the name, she was offered it.

    This isn't the middle ages where you have to kill the kids to make sure. She was welcomed into the family.
    They give her their blessing after they’re all dead, and when the only relationship with them that could have been of that depth was formed entirely off screen, and with the character who has a different last name that would have worked far better given it’s already pro-adoption elements (Organa).

    I’m not arguing against the intent of the writing.

    I’m arguing the execution is so crap it’s unworthy of being seen as accurate.

    Kind of like any attempt to argue that Rey and Kylo/Ben had anything besides an abusive relationship.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    They give her their blessing after they’re all dead, and when the only relationship with them that could have been of that depth was formed entirely off screen, and with the character who has a different last name that would have worked far better given it’s already pro-adoption elements (Organa).

    I’m not arguing against the intent of the writing.

    I’m arguing the execution is so crap it’s unworthy of being seen as accurate.

    Kind of like any attempt to argue that Rey and Kylo/Ben had anything besides an abusive relationship.
    Did you have the same issue with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker because Luke is gung ho about redeeming his father where in the last film he was horrified he was even related to him. We never saw him come to the conclusion he was worth saving in ESB he just wants to in ROTJ.

    Also being dead should not limit them to having a say as being force-ghosts they literally transcended death itself to show up on Tattooine and allow her to do that.
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  13. #73
    Spectacular Member Coatl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    You know, reading your post reminds me of an old webcomic that I think perfectly illustrates why Palpatine actually won Star Wars:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

    Attachment 94790

    So, when all is said and done which family will inspire more to follow in their footsteps? The Skywalkers and Solos of the universe fought their whole lives and achieved nothing, betrayed by those closest to them and quickly forgotten by the galaxy at large. While on the other hand Palpatine got to live like a god, as arguably the greatest emperor and greatest Sith of all time; his name a byword for ultimate power and the example by which all other tyrants must measure up to.

    The choice is clear. Devoting yourself to the light side only offers endless toil and no lasting victories. Mastering the dark side will bring material rewards, a legacy to last the ages and a chance at eternal life in the flesh. Thanks to TROS the visage of Palpatine will inspire audiences to follow the ways of the Sith for generations to come!
    Ha, I didn't knew that comic thank a lot

    And yes it totally summarizes why Palpatine won big time

    All them Palpatine, Luke, Leia even Vader died at the end as everyone has to, but Palpatine destroyed almost all his enemies, fulfilled all his goals and was a power figure all his life even ruled the galaxy for more than 20 years, while everybody else lived much less, and fulfilled much less after a much harder and less respected life.
    "And you eater of world. May you taste our righteous fire, And choke on it. For my planet's sake, I spit my last breath at thee"

  14. #74
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coatl View Post
    Ha, I didn't knew that comic thank a lot

    And yes it totally summarizes why Palpatine won big time

    All them Palpatine, Luke, Leia even Vader died at the end as everyone has to, but Palpatine destroyed almost all his enemies, fulfilled all his goals and was a power figure all his life even ruled the galaxy for more than 20 years, while everybody else lived much less, and fulfilled much less after a much harder and less respected life.
    Plus,we aren't even sure if he is really DEAD! And you know he has more kids out there. And does anyone really think that was the only cloning facility?
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Did you have the same issue with Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker because Luke is gung ho about redeeming his father where in the last film he was horrified he was even related to him. We never saw him come to the conclusion he was worth saving in ESB he just wants to in ROTJ.

    Also being dead should not limit them to having a say as being force-ghosts they literally transcended death itself to show up on Tattooine and allow her to do that.
    Now y’see, it’s actually that “father” part, the part where Obi-Wan and Yoda both built up Anakin as having been a hero once and a good man, and Kasdan writing the scene between Vader and Luke on Endor that adds enough nuance and actual character work to their interactions to make it make sense, as well just generally constructing the story so it’s about Luke and not Vader in the OT. Everything about Rey and Kylo is him being a 100% unadulterated narcissistic attacker, her never getting any good information about him beyond who his parents are, him personally violating her mind and attacking and murdering her friends/found family when found family is a *much* bigger theme with her than it was with Luke and Vader, and with the only real *excuse* (and a fatally pathetic one at that) being space magic that still doesn’t actually help her get to know him better (or else she would have known he wouldn’t be redeemed in TLJ... and he wouldn’t have thought she was cool with wiping out the Resistance.)

    Luke was discovering the father he had been taught to idealize as a heroic figure by his teachers was the monster he hated... then got some scenes to actually show why he would find some of Anakin’s goodness reflecting in Vader. Rey was dealing with a guy who, at best, was the son of people she liked trying desperately to kill those same people, and then proceeded to receive no good information about him across three films outside of who his parents were... while the scenes they shared showed he would explicitly reject all attempts to get redeemed until his mother used a literal magic move to get through to him.

    And yet, Luke is the one whose plan is “Turn myself over to Vader so he can’t track my team, make sure he and Palpatine are both on the Death Star so they die, and redeem my father if it’s feasible, but that’s not my main objective and gameplan.” Rey’s is the far more generous, far less feasible and yet so much more casually unfurled “Surely that dude I met a day ago who tortured me and murdered/maimed my friends who I know is a mass murderer who doesn’t deny killing his fellow students when confronted about it and talks about killing his dad so he could get more power will naturally be redeemed when I appeal to him... even if he didn’t get redeemed when his own loving father tried it!”

    The fact that TLJ is treated as a foundation for a relationship in TROS just shows how counterintuitive, inhuman, and ultimately weak the standards for the ST became by the end... and Rey declaring herself a Skywalker by those standards is pathetic.

    And the main issue with the declaration is that a) it doesn’t work when Organa would work better, b) it loses a lot of dramatic power of its applied after everyone is dead, and c) the Ben relationship is a liability, not an asset, to the argument, while d) if they wanted Rey to be a Skywalker, it stil, would have just worked far better to just have her be a Skywalker and admit that TLJ was a mistake.
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