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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherofpearl1 View Post
    I don't know whether he's the leading character but he's definitely the victor.
    Lucas once described Sta Wars as a 'fairytale', but it's the only fairytale I know of where the entire bloodline of the hero is wiped out and the villain's descendant lives.
    So, he's the victor because his plan was foiled, he himself died, and his only descendant decided to identify herself as belonging to the family of his worst enemies and carry their name and their legacy forward? Some victory.
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  2. #47
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    At least his descendants live on.
    The Skywalkers and Solos are gone. The good guys lost.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by motherofpearl1 View Post
    At least his descendants live on.
    The Skywalkers and Solos are gone. The good guys lost.
    Really? 1000 years of planning by the Sith is undone within a fraction of that by a bunch of kids, one of them being Palpatine's own family who turned on him. You don't need kids to have had a fulfilled life either.
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  4. #49
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    I would maybe use this “Palpatine won” argument as hyperbole to insult the ST, but it’s not really an accurate assessment.

    It is, however, closer to a still depressingly accurate assessment: Palpatine has become arguably the most important character in all the films, and the Skywalker and Solo families still lost.

    Papa Palpatine is now the only character to make a physical appearance all the way from the first movie to the last, the only one who’s plans and legacy are the actual main focus of the central conflict of the story, and the Skywalker/Solos are effectively just a smaller family story taking place within his story.

    Most of that has to do with the critically stupid decision to not have Rey be a Skywalker or Solo, and then exacerbate the issue by failing to convincingly make Rey a surrogate member of the family, while also bringing back and elevating Palpatine out of a desperation to avoid having the last Skywalker be the main bad guy.

    Part of the issue is that if you want to bring up Rey’s found family, the clearest and most emotionally resonant member isn’t a member of the main family of the Saga, but instead Finn. None of the other characters really succeed in coming off as truly surrogate family members, but especially not the Skywalkers, so the name change she takes as “Rey Skywalker” is a complete artificiality: Han died after knowing her for a day (and was named Solo), Luke was miswritten to be focused on his pretentious man pain and so had no relationship with her, Ben was a monster 9l% of the time they knew each other and can only be counted as an abusive pseudo-boyfriend (and was named Solo), and because of Fisher’s tragic passing, Leia has barely any screentime and nothing of real relevance with Rey (and was named Organa, which, because it’s an adopted name, arguably works far better for the intended “Skywalker” story but is inconveniently not as great of an IP).

    Palpatine didn’t really win, but the Skywalker/Solos certainly didn’t either, and Rey wound up being critically underwritten and schizophrenically characterized.
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  5. #50
    Spectacular Member Coatl's Avatar
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    I agree with you in almost all except in the "Palpatine didn't won" because in certain way he did it, almost all his plans were successful.

    He becomes the apendice of the most powerful sith of his era
    He overcomes his master
    He manipulate the now false chosen one to make him his pawn.
    He almost destroyed the jedi
    He conquers the galaxy
    He keeps the power for more than 20 years enough time to leave his mark in the history
    He survives the homicide attempt destroying his traitor apprentice in the way.
    He started ruling in the shadow also he got enough power to put his old empire on shame
    He destroys the new jedi order using Ben Solo
    He gets Luke the last jedi and a key piece of his murder attempt utterly humiliated and see how he kills himself after years of self blaming and self hate.
    He uses the last member of the Solo-Skywalker family to destroy the Solo and Skywalker family
    He found his long lost granddaughter and discovers that she is the real chosen one.
    He can't turn her into his side but make her kill him something that also works for a sith.

    At the end, the Jedi order is totally destroyed, the Solo and Skywalker families are gone, but not just that they would be eventually forgotten since they never wee so resected to starts. Solo never become more than a smuggler, Leia fought kept all her life in war and without her family and Luke forgot his character development to become a bitter old man marked by failure. While Palpatine lived a long live, comply all his goals (except immortality), would be remember for all the galaxy, and lived enough to see the Jedi order and the Skywalkers die and his granddaughter become the most powerful creature in the force, he can go with a smile.

    Even now, since he was looking for Rey to kill him and Rey actually killed him it could have been considered a partial victory. Yes Rey took the Skywalker name, for some mysterious reason since she has a rocky encounter with Luke and barely two lessons, but at the end she is a Palpatine.
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  6. #51
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coatl View Post
    I agree with you in almost all except in the "Palpatine didn't won" because in certain way he did it, almost all his plans were successful.

    He becomes the apendice of the most powerful sith of his era
    He overcomes his master
    He manipulate the now false chosen one to make him his pawn.
    He almost destroyed the jedi
    He conquers the galaxy
    He keeps the power for more than 20 years enough time to leave his mark in the history
    He survives the homicide attempt destroying his traitor apprentice in the way.
    He started ruling in the shadow also he got enough power to put his old empire on shame
    He destroys the new jedi order using Ben Solo
    He gets Luke the last jedi and a key piece of his murder attempt utterly humiliated and see how he kills himself after years of self blaming and self hate.
    He uses the last member of the Solo-Skywalker family to destroy the Solo and Skywalker family
    He found his long lost granddaughter and discovers that she is the real chosen one.
    He can't turn her into his side but make her kill him something that also works for a sith.

    At the end, the Jedi order is totally destroyed, the Solo and Skywalker families are gone, but not just that they would be eventually forgotten since they never wee so resected to starts. Solo never become more than a smuggler, Leia fought kept all her life in war and without her family and Luke forgot his character development to become a bitter old man marked by failure. While Palpatine lived a long live, comply all his goals (except immortality), would be remember for all the galaxy, and lived enough to see the Jedi order and the Skywalkers die and his granddaughter become the most powerful creature in the force, he can go with a smile.

    Even now, since he was looking for Rey to kill him and Rey actually killed him it could have been considered a partial victory. Yes Rey took the Skywalker name, for some mysterious reason since she has a rocky encounter with Luke and barely two lessons, but at the end she is a Palpatine.
    You know, reading your post reminds me of an old webcomic that I think perfectly illustrates why Palpatine actually won Star Wars:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

    OOTS - 763.jpg

    So, when all is said and done which family will inspire more to follow in their footsteps? The Skywalkers and Solos of the universe fought their whole lives and achieved nothing, betrayed by those closest to them and quickly forgotten by the galaxy at large. While on the other hand Palpatine got to live like a god, as arguably the greatest emperor and greatest Sith of all time; his name a byword for ultimate power and the example by which all other tyrants must measure up to.

    The choice is clear. Devoting yourself to the light side only offers endless toil and no lasting victories. Mastering the dark side will bring material rewards, a legacy to last the ages and a chance at eternal life in the flesh. Thanks to TROS the visage of Palpatine will inspire audiences to follow the ways of the Sith for generations to come!
    Last edited by Kintor; 03-23-2020 at 07:51 AM.

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Why are people so obsessed with proving that Palpatine won, despite literally everything in the movies showing time and again that that's not the case?
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Why are people so obsessed with proving that Palpatine won, despite literally everything in the movies showing time and again that that's not the case?
    Because it’s a strong pathos argument to make against the intent of TROS’s objectives... particularly if you find the emotional storyline of the Skywalkers and the previous and beloved cast of characters to be depressing, or maybe just pathetically artificial. It’s not a great logos argument, since Palpatine still ends up dead (...for now...) and his Final Order plan falls apart.

    But if you’re focused more on the Skywalker family and believed that ROTJ had a happy ending, it’s really, really dark and depressing now, because now the entire “escape hatch” of Rey “Skywalker” relies on the believability of the Force Dyad idea with Rey’s abusive pseudo-boyfriend Kylo or the repurposed Fisher footage with Rey as Leia’s student.

    Palpatine definitely lost the objective of “once more the Sith shall rule the Galaxy!”... but you can tell that LFL either specifically chose not to make his plans include any explicitly vengeful designed on the Skywalkers, or if they had that idea, they cut it out later, because if Palpatine’s goals had included revenge?

    It be pretty hard to argue he didn’t get that several times over.
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  9. #54
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    You had ONE job Sequel trilogy, be better than the Prequel trilogy. You failed.
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  10. #55
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't get the criticism about the burial site. The memories of Tatooine weren't that great for any of them, but the farm wasn't a bad place he was loved there.
    Luke's final memory before leaving was seeing the burned corpses of his aunt and uncle in the front yard...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Plus, where else to do such a thing? Alderaan? Gone. Naboo? Neither twin ever set foot on their mother's home planet. Ach-to? Meaningful to the Jedi, not so much of a tie to Skywalkers specifically. The Lars farm is really the only logical place. Its reaching to try and make Rey look like a dolt for choosing it. And that's not even mentioning the entirely symbolic nature of it in the first place being the genuine first locale of the entire series.
    Where else to do such a thing? How about not doing such a thing? That entire scene was Abrams giving in to his worst impulses.
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  11. #56
    Spectacular Member Valentis's Avatar
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    The real leading character would be Rey, followed by Palpatine then Anakin. Palpatine returning made Anakin/Vader's sacrifice to be in vain. Rey defeating Palpatine makes her the most important Jedi to ever live. The most important Jedi is the central character of Star Wars Universe.
    Last edited by Valentis; 03-24-2020 at 05:15 AM.

  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Luke's final memory before leaving was seeing the burned corpses of his aunt and uncle in the front yard...
    Doesn't change the fact he grew up there in a loved environment. His exit from it was harsh, but it doesn't erase that it was the site where he grew up with two loving parental figures. And again the meta importance of the site can't be denied either. It was a total Lucas move in that regard.

    Where else to do such a thing? How about not doing such a thing? That entire scene was Abrams giving in to his worst impulses.
    I don't see anything negatively impulsive about the scene.. It wasn't absolutely necessary but that wasn't what I was arguing. It happened, and as it happened, the locale was fine. I would have done something different (don't know if I would have even bothered at the late stage to introduce a Leia saber, and I would have had Rey recraft Anakin's into a double-bladed one for herself), and to boot not even a fan of how they went out. Especially Luke (Leia was sadly unavoidable). But those are separate issues.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-24-2020 at 01:11 PM.
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  13. #58
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    Perhaps a better place to have Rey “bury” the Skywalker legacy would have been on Yavin 4, and perhaps by placing the sabers on the same raised platform that Luke and Han were rewarded on all that time ago, maybe alongside Han’s medal...

    ...And if they done more research on the old a Legends EU, maybe imply that Rey would be using the Yavin temples as the new Jedi temple.

    Of course, that doesn’t quite work as well with trying to have Rey call herself a Skywalker, but that whole idea is crock anyways.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Because it’s a strong pathos argument to make against the intent of TROS’s objectives... particularly if you find the emotional storyline of the Skywalkers and the previous and beloved cast of characters to be depressing, or maybe just pathetically artificial. It’s not a great logos argument, since Palpatine still ends up dead (...for now...) and his Final Order plan falls apart.
    Guess I don't see much point against arguing on stuff established to be fact in the source material (although I'm sure there's stuff I will do that on).

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    But if you’re focused more on the Skywalker family and believed that ROTJ had a happy ending, it’s really, really dark and depressing now, because now the entire “escape hatch” of Rey “Skywalker” relies on the believability of the Force Dyad idea with Rey’s abusive pseudo-boyfriend Kylo or the repurposed Fisher footage with Rey as Leia’s student.
    Personally thought Luke and Leia's training her worked as a link. Didn't see the dyad thing has having any relevance to the question and always saw Kylo as irrelevant, too. On the the other hand, the big three were always going to die sometime and I don't really see how it can be argued that they didn't made a difference, given the good they did over their lives and how their work is what allowed the next generation of heroes to take their places in things.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Palpatine definitely lost the objective of “once more the Sith shall rule the Galaxy!”... but you can tell that LFL either specifically chose not to make his plans include any explicitly vengeful designed on the Skywalkers, or if they had that idea, they cut it out later, because if Palpatine’s goals had included revenge?

    It be pretty hard to argue he didn’t get that several times over.
    The Final Order retaking the Galaxy seemed to fit pretty dang well with Palpatine's usual MO of ruling everything. As far as him not being petty to include revenge on the Skywalkers, well, most of them were dead by the time he was ready to begin and he did take pleasure in trying to kill Kylo after he had no further use for him and attacking the fleet.
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  15. #60
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    It's interesting that his line in the trailer is "This will be the last line in the story of Skywalker" while the actual line is "This will be the last line in the story of rebellion" (Although I think "Jedi" would have worked a bit better).


    I'm not sure it's really revenge against the Skywalkers that Palpatine wants-his purpose seemed to mainly turn them to the dark side more than anything, he suceeded with Anakin and Ben(by proxy) until their redemptions but failed with Luke. Even when Leia redeems Ben, he refers to her as "The Princess of Alderaan" rather than a Skywalker.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 03-24-2020 at 04:57 PM.
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