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  1. #271

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    If they keep retconning her, they'll just have to completely reboot the character. It's quite the mess already. They should stick with the latest. She's still A-side and still raised by the Maximoffs. Still has the Chthon elements, and Agatha. Just none of the stuff that they were never gonna expand on anyway. Because no matter what, the editorial on each side is separate. And that's not likely to change.
    Was Curlytop

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    And you know that the editors consider the retcon a wrong thing? There is no evidence in any way to prove that the retcon was a mistake or something "bad" that needs to be fixed.
    and second of alll, how in THE WORLD did we end up in star wars???? because they are twins with an evil dad because that is a shallow as sin comparison that doesnt account how difrent the two stories are, its almost comedic, its an enourmous strawmen.
    Your argument was said as if it was a fact, when we both know its not. It's your opinion. Right now they don't, but stranger things have happened in comics with editorial. Something not occurring this second isn't a sure thing it'll be like that forever. Things change. Marvel already been slowly building a narrative for Wanda's redemption, and it's only gotten stronger in time. First it was Children's Crusade, next it was Uncanny Avengers who knows what story it'll be after that?

    We ended up in Star Wars because it was a very blatant example of how the type of story you don't want with Wanda. Please, explain why it's a "straw man."

    its the equivalent of calling a rose and a plastic flower the same because from afar it seems so.
    Luke and Leia vs Darth Vader

    Wanda and Pietro vs Magneto

    Nothing in common? Thinking about it, the comparison makes more sense then I thought - they're both heroic twins fighting their evil father!

    But no, if their relantionship was like that, but its not.


    I don't have the faintest clue how you came to conclusion their family the stuff drams are made of before House of M, or afterward. Read UXM Vol.1 #442, about Magneto's funeral.

    It has never been interesting in decades why do you belive it can suddenly SOMEHOW become a good story?
    To you, but your dislike Scarlet Witch is well known. What occurs in a story with Wanda makes it immediately "wrong." The quality of it is irrelevant with your bias.

    The 3 characters barely interact, barely share pages, and never share any stories, magneto is a footnote in their carrers as avengers and vice versa.
    This is a major reason why stories like this haven't been created. They have shared stories together: Children's Crusade and Avengers: Disassembled, for instance. Magneto's presence does define them both, read Busiek's Avengers. The main reason is due to editorial not because of anything the characters are doing, they have no agency in how their stories are written.


    And third of all magneto is its own character, not a way to give development to two avengers characters, if that's your major intention then have a new villain as their dad, because magneto is too good a character to serve those two romani sterotypes no one cares about.
    All characters are used to develop others, Magneto does this every time he appears in X-men and he's not the only person who does this in Marvel. This isn't about Magneto being a "good" character, it's about how you felt about Wanda in House of M. What did you think about her before that story?Numerous people care about Wanda and Pietro and the numbers have grown thanks to Fox's X-men and the MCU. Wanda's getting her own tv show and rumour has it she'll be in the next Dr. Strange movie. Things are looking up for Wanda fans!
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 05-17-2020 at 06:54 AM.

  3. #273

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    I finally feel like saying some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    But here's the catch; the best writers can make a good story out of the worst retcon. That is exactly what has happened for Scarlet Witch; because modern Marvel Comics treat Wanda Maximoff as a sorceress, not as a mutant. This approach began with James Robinson's excellent Scarlet Witch series, in which Wanda learned her true heritage. She discovered she was the latest in a long line of Scarlet Witches and Warlocks, and swore to uphold their legacy. Since then, she has done just that, gradually becoming an essential part of Marvel's magical line. She's even a teacher at Strange Academy.
    ... The same series that had an immediate drop-off in sales from issue one to every issue after being at or below what Marvel considered cancellation levels for All-New X-Factor. Despite Marvel trying very, very hard to promote the book and spread awareness. And keeping it going past those sales levels far longer than they were willing to keep ANXF going.

    I'm not saying Robinson's run was bad. I'm not saying Wanda is bad. I'm not saying exploring her separately is in any way bad, or that doing more with her magical side is bad. What I'm saying is that the retcon severed an area of potential interest and development that it really didn't need to, and I think that hurt interest in Wanda - and by extension, sales that her solo could've received.

    In my personal case, I read the entire Magneto solo series by Cullen Bunn, and had started buying and reading shortly after it started. Why? Because 1) I wanted to encourage Lorna appearing in it, 2) if Lorna did eventually appear in it then reading early would help me prepare (something I also did with X-Men Legacy when I heard Lorna was gonna show up later), and 3) even if Lorna never showed up or got any kind of mention, it at least gave me a chance to get to know Magneto. The better I knew Magneto, the better it would feed into my understanding future interactions between him and Lorna. This is despite Magneto basically being #4 out of characters in the Magnus family I have any interest in.

    By contrast, I read none of the Scarlet Witch solo. I had no reason to read it. Getting to know Wanda wouldn't help me get to understand how she might interact with Lorna. Reading the book wouldn't prepare me for the possibility that perhaps Lorna would appear on it, or they'd have scenes together in future events. I knew a post-Axis Wanda had nothing to offer me. Therefore, I had no reason to buy and read her book. Wanda's my #2 character of interest in the Magnus family after Lorna, but if I'm never going to see sister dynamics like those I saw in Jeff Parker's Exiles or Wolverine and the X-Men, then what's the point? I'm better off reading fan work that still acknowledges them as sisters.

    Now obviously, Wanda doesn't exist just to be "this character's sister" just as Lorna doesn't exist exclusively to be Magneto's daughter of Havok's ex/girlfriend. But the Axis retcon cuts out a world of possibilities. People have a tendency to look at what has happened and think only in binaries, and not look at alternatives that could have happened and turned out much better.

    Why couldn't Wanda be a mutant and have a magical lineage? Why can't Magneto be her father, Lorna her sister, while simultaneously she has a whole magical background which supersedes her mutanthood? Why should one prevent the other? And wouldn't having the mix of them present an opportunity to tell a very different story with Wanda, that couldn't be told with any other mutant or magic character, pertaining to identity?

    There's a lot more I could say here, but the more I try to put it into words, the more I get the feeling that now isn't the time. So I'll refrain for the moment.


    Also, new piece being worked on by comicnate. There's probably more out there but I haven't been actively looking lately. May have even skipped past some; I haven't been posting my finds around much lately.

    I can also be reached on Twitter and WordPress.

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  4. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I finally feel like saying some things.



    ... The same series that had an immediate drop-off in sales from issue one to every issue after being at or below what Marvel considered cancellation levels for All-New X-Factor. Despite Marvel trying very, very hard to promote the book and spread awareness. And keeping it going past those sales levels far longer than they were willing to keep ANXF going.

    I'm not saying Robinson's run was bad. I'm not saying Wanda is bad. I'm not saying exploring her separately is in any way bad, or that doing more with her magical side is bad. What I'm saying is that the retcon severed an area of potential interest and development that it really didn't need to, and I think that hurt interest in Wanda - and by extension, sales that her solo could've received.

    In my personal case, I read the entire Magneto solo series by Cullen Bunn, and had started buying and reading shortly after it started. Why? Because 1) I wanted to encourage Lorna appearing in it, 2) if Lorna did eventually appear in it then reading early would help me prepare (something I also did with X-Men Legacy when I heard Lorna was gonna show up later), and 3) even if Lorna never showed up or got any kind of mention, it at least gave me a chance to get to know Magneto. The better I knew Magneto, the better it would feed into my understanding future interactions between him and Lorna. This is despite Magneto basically being #4 out of characters in the Magnus family I have any interest in.

    By contrast, I read none of the Scarlet Witch solo. I had no reason to read it. Getting to know Wanda wouldn't help me get to understand how she might interact with Lorna. Reading the book wouldn't prepare me for the possibility that perhaps Lorna would appear on it, or they'd have scenes together in future events. I knew a post-Axis Wanda had nothing to offer me. Therefore, I had no reason to buy and read her book. Wanda's my #2 character of interest in the Magnus family after Lorna, but if I'm never going to see sister dynamics like those I saw in Jeff Parker's Exiles or Wolverine and the X-Men, then what's the point? I'm better off reading fan work that still acknowledges them as sisters.

    Now obviously, Wanda doesn't exist just to be "this character's sister" just as Lorna doesn't exist exclusively to be Magneto's daughter of Havok's ex/girlfriend. But the Axis retcon cuts out a world of possibilities. People have a tendency to look at what has happened and think only in binaries, and not look at alternatives that could have happened and turned out much better.

    Why couldn't Wanda be a mutant and have a magical lineage? Why can't Magneto be her father, Lorna her sister, while simultaneously she has a whole magical background which supersedes her mutanthood? Why should one prevent the other? And wouldn't having the mix of them present an opportunity to tell a very different story with Wanda, that couldn't be told with any other mutant or magic character, pertaining to identity?

    There's a lot more I could say here, but the more I try to put it into words, the more I get the feeling that now isn't the time. So I'll refrain for the moment.
    Sales don't equal quality and most of the sales hit was because they changed artists every issue. That's been a killer for other series that did the same. Magical lineage renders that need for her being a mutant null and void. She doesn't need it for powers. She doesn't need it for discrimination type stories, she has that with her being Romani. The only thing they could have done was have a redemption story for M-day but they didn't do that. So now the best thing is for her to move on. Because everything else will be here's this Avenger that did this to mutants otherwise. And it just keeps the wounds open.

    I don't think the Scarlet Witch solo was aiming to pull in Lorna fans. No offense. But that's likely not the target audience. Her old solo from when she was still a mutant and his daughter didn't sell more. It's not about her being a mutant or not. She was never really established as a solo character. And there's the fact that most solo books that aren't Spidey, DP or Wolverine don't sell that well anyway.
    Was Curlytop

  5. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Magical lineage renders that need for her being a mutant null and void. She doesn't need it for powers. She doesn't need it for discrimination type stories, she has that with her being Romani. The only thing they could have done was have a redemption story for M-day but they didn't do that.
    So they couldn't have taken her in a direction where there's interplay between her genetics as a mutant and her actions and abilities as a sorceress?

    I'm not even thinking about discrimination stories when I say this. What kind of perspective does a woman who has her feet in both worlds have which would not come from one who is exclusively mutant or exclusively magical? What makes her unique enough from Doctor Strange to merit interest, aside from being a woman instead of a man? I think this is a question even the MCU can't seem to answer thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I don't think the Scarlet Witch solo was aiming to pull in Lorna fans. No offense. But that's likely not the target audience.
    None taken, but also not my point.

    Lorna is one character, and myself only one example that I'm providing for perspective. If someone's a Magneto fan, do they have a reason to read Wanda's solo anymore? If she's not going to have any impact on mutant affairs, is there a reason to care about her if you're an X-Men fan who doesn't really care about magical matters most of the time?

    There's a lot more severed here than may be known at face value. You see my words because I've made an effort to write them out - and this time, after my being lazy for a couple days. How many people out there feel similarly but their views aren't seen, either cause they don't look at CBR, or they don't want to bother with an account, or they don't feel it's worth the trouble of making a post and engaging in future discussion off of what they say?

    There's a point at which the target audience can become too narrowly defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Her old solo from when she was still a mutant and his daughter didn't sell more. It's not about her being a mutant or not. She was never really established as a solo character.
    Her old solo was published in 1994. That's 22 years before volume 2 happened.

    I don't know when the comic book bubble burst took place, so I don't know what impact it had or didn't have back then. Maybe people were still buying tons of comics at the time and that solo's sales should've been higher than they were. Maybe the burst was underway and that comic suffered as a result. Someone more knowledgeable of it than me would have to speak to it.

    What I can say is times change. Attitudes toward characters change. Worse sales in 1994 than in 2016 could very well have been a result of female characters being seen as less worth reading back then compared to today. "Women in refrigerators" wasn't being called out notably until 1999, after all, demonstrating how readily women were seen as fodder for the stories of men. Assuming the 2016 book sold better than the 1994 book, what we can say is that treating and seeing a female character as her own character is better than seeing her as primarily a supporting character for a man, and leads to better sales.

    For argument's sake, I'm also assuming that audience size wise, there were either more potential readers or roughly the same number compared to today. Rather than assuming the same trajectory as video games where there are multitudes more potential consumers today than there were in the 90s.
    Last edited by salarta; 05-17-2020 at 10:27 PM.
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  6. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    So they couldn't have taken her in a direction where there's interplay between her genetics as a mutant and her actions and abilities as a sorceress?
    They wanted to make her a magic detective, and I liked it. It like many comics aren't for everyone. And there's so many actual mutant titles out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    I'm not even thinking about discrimination stories when I say this. What kind of perspective does a woman who has her feet in both worlds have which would not come from one who is exclusively mutant or exclusively magical? What makes her unique enough from Doctor Strange to merit interest, aside from being a woman instead of a man? I think this is a question even the MCU can't seem to answer thus far.
    She didn't really have her feet in both worlds though. They rarely did anything with that. So it just never made sense. What makes any magical character different from Strange, if you delude it down to magic itself? Of course there are differences between the characters. The way they got their powers, how they use them, titles, origins, etc. Wanda gets her's from Chthon and learned traditional magic from Agatha. None of that has anything to do with mutants. And if being a mutant was given back, it wouldn't change anything. Just like it changed nothing when she was retconned away.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    None taken, but also not my point.

    Lorna is one character, and myself only one example that I'm providing for perspective. If someone's a Magneto fan, do they have a reason to read Wanda's solo anymore? If she's not going to have any impact on mutant affairs, is there a reason to care about her if you're an X-Men fan who doesn't really care about magical matters most of the time?

    There's a lot more severed here than may be known at face value. You see my words because I've made an effort to write them out - and this time, after my being lazy for a couple days. How many people out there feel similarly but their views aren't seen, either cause they don't look at CBR, or they don't want to bother with an account, or they don't feel it's worth the trouble of making a post and engaging in future discussion off of what they say?

    There's a point at which the target audience can become too narrowly defined.
    I think the target audience was likely aimed at those that want to read about Wanda, magic or an Avenger related book. Just like Captain Marvel, Captain America, Thor or Iron Man are gonna bring in people that want to read about those characters or something Avengers related. Do they need to be mutants too for more readers? At one point Cap and Iron Man were cancelled due to sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Her old solo was published in 1994. That's 22 years before volume 2 happened.

    I don't know when the comic book bubble burst took place, so I don't know what impact it had or didn't have back then. Maybe people were still buying tons of comics at the time and that solo's sales should've been higher than they were. Maybe the burst was underway and that comic suffered as a result. Someone more knowledgeable of it than me would have to speak to it.

    What I can say is times change. Attitudes toward characters change. Worse sales in 1994 than in 2016 could very well have been a result of female characters being seen as less worth reading back then compared to today. "Women in refrigerators" wasn't being called out notably until 1999, after all, demonstrating how readily women were seen as fodder for the stories of men. Assuming the 2016 book sold better than the 1994 book, what we can say is that treating and seeing a female character as her own character is better than seeing her as primarily a supporting character for a man, and leads to better sales.

    For argument's sake, I'm also assuming that audience size wise, there were either more potential readers or roughly the same number compared to today. Rather than assuming the same trajectory as video games where there are multitudes more potential consumers today than there were in the 90s.
    Sales for solos haven't really changed over the years, other than some characters getting more exposure due to being in other media. Something Wanda was also sorely limited in. And limited in promotional materials. And like I said, wasn't built up as a solo hero. The gap in time in solo releases is proof of that. They didn't try to give her a footing there, so it never took hold. Solo characters need a lot of promotion, need a rogue's gallery and support cast. The most popular ones that I stated have had all of that. Wanda was pretty much in a big chunk of Avengers comics spanning from Issue 16 all the way up until the 500 range (some time off here and there). So for anyone to have exposure to her, they have to read that large chunk of comics. And comics are very niche. So you can see how that would be a detriment to popularity.

    She was a mutant for 50+ years and Mags' kid for 30 years. It did not propel her image or popularity. So it's not condensed to the time comics failed, because most of that started to really take hold in the middle of the decade anyway. The movies have made her more popular than she's ever been. Because it reaches millions of people instead of thousands. So her getting more stuff outside of comics is the only way for her to become more popular. No matter who she is related to.
    Was Curlytop

  7. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    They wanted to make her a magic detective, and I liked it.
    Thanks for this perspective and insight. As I said, I didn't read the solo, so basically I just know it existed and Marvel was trying really hard to promote it (while doing nothing for ANXF).

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    She didn't really have her feet in both worlds though. They rarely did anything with that. So it just never made sense.
    Yes, but Marvel not doing anything with something is different from the potential of that something if it was actually pursued. Marvel hasn't done anything between Lorna and Jean in decades, that doesn't mean Lorna should never get to spend any time with Jean. The only reason losing her mutant self in the retcon meant she didn't lose anything is cause Marvel never even tried. Same as Marvel's never tried having Lorna and Jean interact meaningfully since the late 60s/early 70s, therefore nobody could possibly say there's nothing of value to be gained from their interacting more.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I think the target audience was likely aimed at those that want to read about Wanda, magic or an Avenger related book. Just like Captain Marvel, Captain America, Thor or Iron Man are gonna bring in people that want to read about those characters or something Avengers related. Do they need to be mutants too for more readers? At one point Cap and Iron Man were cancelled due to sales.
    Those examples don't "need" to be mutants to attract readers, but they also never had mutants as a core element to their characters and histories in the past. Also, all four of the examples you cited are considered tentpole characters whom Marvel created full-fledged individual films for, with decades of solo comics to their names. Wanda doesn't have any of that.

    This also touches on something I've argued previously about the 2013 "Tomb Raider" "reboot." With male characters, you get constant work to build upon what's already there. The core persists, meaningful elements are built upon it and developed outward. Female characters, on the other hand, tend to get torn down to their foundations and completely reworked, only to get torn down once again by the next person to come along who thinks what was built before sucked and wants to remake everything in an image they like. What you get is a character who never gets to actually, meaningfully develop in any way. The good gets lumped in with the bad, anything positive they brought about over time is treated like it never happened, and the character for all intents and purposes is seen as if they never really existed until their latest remaking. No need to acknowledge she existed for over 50 years when 45 of those years no longer matter to anything that happens with her today.

    Today, the Axis retcon has remade Wanda a certain way. How long until someone else hates what's been done with her post-Axis, rips it apart, and reinvents her yet again? Maybe the next Wanda will be nothing more than a Raven from Teen Titans knockoff.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    She was a mutant for 50+ years and Mags' kid for 30 years. It did not propel her image or popularity. So it's not condensed to the time comics failed, because most of that started to really take hold in the middle of the decade anyway. The movies have made her more popular than she's ever been. Because it reaches millions of people instead of thousands. So her getting more stuff outside of comics is the only way for her to become more popular. No matter who she is related to.
    X-Men Evolution is the only way I knew about Wanda until I discovered Polaris existed and started to learn more about Wanda by extension, so I have to disagree about the claim that Wanda's family connection didn't propel her image or popularity. She wouldn't have been on the show without being a mutant, and certainly wouldn't have held as large a role as she had without Magneto as her father. It didn't lead to me eagerly jumping to read comics with her in them, but neither did anything else Marvel did with any characters pre-Lorna.

    I can also say that Lorna's connection to Magneto has increased interest in Lorna. The trick has been to assure it's understood by people that there's plenty more to Lorna than just who her father is, and to pursue and respect those other aspects of her. And realistically, if I thought like a certain editor at Marvel, I'd prefer Wanda never be part of the family again because it would increase the odds of writers ignoring Lorna and diving to Wanda for such stories. But I enjoy the sisters way more than their statuses as daughters.

    The movies made Wanda more popular in ways that could've just as easily happened with her still a daughter of Magneto. Being his daughter doesn't mean she can't focus on magic. Secondly, much of the promotion Marvel gave her was because of Fox and Disney/Marvel execs fighting, and Disney/Marvel walking away from their custody hearing with Wanda (in large part cause Fox already called dibs on their version of Pietro). I agree Wanda needs more content outside of comics to become popular. But I don't think that requires severing all ties to Magneto and mutants and pretending that part of her never existed - and in fact, I think it'll do more to hold her back than help her get there. It's one less venue for her to show up in.

    Of course, in actual execution there are plenty of variables to consider and account for. A bad depiction can be worse than no depiction. Sometimes certain things need to be worked out before more can be done with them. But in ideal conditions, Wanda not being Magneto's daughter and/or not being a mutant means less opportunities, not more. For the same reason Lorna not being Magneto's daughter for decades kept her from taking part in storylines she could have been involved in throughout those decades.
    Last edited by salarta; 05-18-2020 at 12:20 AM.
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  8. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    Thanks for this perspective and insight. As I said, I didn't read the solo, so basically I just know it existed and Marvel was trying really hard to promote it (while doing nothing for ANXF).



    Yes, but Marvel not doing anything with something is different from the potential of that something if it was actually pursued. Marvel hasn't done anything between Lorna and Jean in decades, that doesn't mean Lorna should never get to spend any time with Jean. The only reason losing her mutant self in the retcon meant she didn't lose anything is cause Marvel never even tried. Same as Marvel's never tried having Lorna and Jean interact meaningfully since the late 60s/early 70s, therefore nobody could possibly say there's nothing of value to be gained from their interacting more.



    Those examples don't "need" to be mutants to attract readers, but they also never had mutants as a core element to their characters and histories in the past. Also, all four of the examples you cited are considered tentpole characters whom Marvel created full-fledged individual films for, with decades of solo comics to their names. Wanda doesn't have any of that.

    This also touches on something I've argued previously about the 2013 "Tomb Raider" "reboot." With male characters, you get constant work to build upon what's already there. The core persists, meaningful elements are built upon it and developed outward. Female characters, on the other hand, tend to get torn down to their foundations and completely reworked, only to get torn down once again by the next person to come along who thinks what was built before sucked and wants to remake everything in an image they like. What you get is a character who never gets to actually, meaningfully develop in any way. The good gets lumped in with the bad, anything positive they brought about over time is treated like it never happened, and the character for all intents and purposes is seen as if they never really existed until their latest remaking. No need to acknowledge she existed for over 50 years when 45 of those years no longer matter to anything that happens with her today.

    Today, the Axis retcon has remade Wanda a certain way. How long until someone else hates what's been done with her post-Axis, rips it apart, and reinvents her yet again? Maybe the next Wanda will be nothing more than a Raven from Teen Titans knockoff.



    X-Men Evolution is the only way I knew about Wanda until I discovered Polaris existed and started to learn more about Wanda by extension, so I have to disagree about the claim that Wanda's family connection didn't propel her image or popularity. She wouldn't have been on the show without being a mutant, and certainly wouldn't have held as large a role as she had without Magneto as her father. It didn't lead to me eagerly jumping to read comics with her in them, but neither did anything else Marvel did with any characters pre-Lorna.

    I can also say that Lorna's connection to Magneto has increased interest in Lorna. The trick has been to assure it's understood by people that there's plenty more to Lorna than just who her father is, and to pursue and respect those other aspects of her. And realistically, if I thought like a certain editor at Marvel, I'd prefer Wanda never be part of the family again because it would increase the odds of writers ignoring Lorna and diving to Wanda for such stories. But I enjoy the sisters way more than their statuses as daughters.

    The movies made Wanda more popular in ways that could've just as easily happened with her still a daughter of Magneto. Being his daughter doesn't mean she can't focus on magic. Secondly, much of the promotion Marvel gave her was because of Fox and Disney/Marvel execs fighting, and Disney/Marvel walking away from their custody hearing with Wanda (in large part cause Fox already called dibs on their version of Pietro). I agree Wanda needs more content outside of comics to become popular. But I don't think that requires severing all ties to Magneto and mutants and pretending that part of her never existed - and in fact, I think it'll do more to hold her back than help her get there. It's one less venue for her to show up in.

    Of course, in actual execution there are plenty of variables to consider and account for. A bad depiction can be worse than no depiction. Sometimes certain things need to be worked out before more can be done with them. But in ideal conditions, Wanda not being Magneto's daughter and/or not being a mutant means less opportunities, not more. For the same reason Lorna not being Magneto's daughter for decades kept her from taking part in storylines she could have been involved in throughout those decades.
    They just aren't gonna pursue it though. Two different editorials. With different creators on books. Anything that is done would have to be a special event and would be temporary. Like it or not, Wanda's footing is primarily on the A side. And has been for the majority of her time as a character. So that's where most of the focus of the character will be. So even if they retconned her back (they shouldn't because too many retcons already), they wouldn't likely have her in anything anymore than they did before. Just because of how things are run. And how separate A is from X. It's just how it is. It works almost as if the sides are produced by two different companies.

    Wanda never had mutant be a core element. It was a fact about her. But the problem is they never really did anything with it other than mention it occasionally. It just wasn't really used. It only changes her character sheet, because everything else is not impacted. Including who raised her. If they had her primarily in mutant stories, then I could see that, but that was far from the case.

    Shows pick random characters on them, and aren't based on popularity. Wanda received no popular push from those shows either. Wanda always had limited presence. It wasn't until the movies that she started getting known by way more people and actually has more merchandise. People talk about her a lot more. In and out of comics fandom. Cartoons never did that for her. And her in cartoons was also very limited.

    Just like she can be a daughter of Magneto, and still be in the movies. She can not be his daughter or a mutant and be in the movies. Because there is no impact. And the reason is the ones I've stated. They never did much with it. Comics always retcon things to never exist. It's happened quite a few times and to Wanda herself. Before Mags, the Franks were her parents. You never hear about them now!

    She didn't show up much in that venue, so it's not a loss. It's not one less venue, because that didn't exist really. She was in a couple x-related cartoons, and a couple Avengers ones. But none of those propelled her. Because cartoons weren't consistent with using her, backed up with merchandise, backed up by movies. She was a bit part on them. And in a few episodes and that's it. Not the big push that they give to characters that they want out there a lot. Until the movies.

    And honestly a lot of the hostility that exists between Wanda and the x-side is a lot of the reason I don't want it changed back. Because I feel like they missed an opportunity to fix a lot of that. And too many years have already passed, and she can't be in the x-books a lot anyway. So since that was botched, the better avenues are elsewhere. If it were actually core to her and I felt like she lost something from it, I'd feel differently. But factually she did not. And hypothetically it's unlikely to ever be a thing.

    So yeah, I want them to focus on the magic stuff because focusing on her powers and keeping those in control, teaching magic and being around people she's had a lot to do with is better for her. Her previous marriage, her friends, her new bf and her life were all A side. That's just how it is. She doesn't have any friends, relationships, etc. X-side. Just a bunch of people that would probably outright just murder her. So it'll never be a good or safe place for her to be. And her being there could just agitate people, especially younger mutants.
    Last edited by GenericUsername; 05-18-2020 at 01:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    They just aren't gonna pursue it though. Two different editorials. With different creators on books. Anything that is done would have to be a special event and would be temporary. Like it or not, Wanda's footing is primarily on the A side. And has been for the majority of her time as a character. So that's where most of the focus of the character will be. So even if they retconned her back (they shouldn't because too many retcons already), they wouldn't likely have her in anything anymore than they did before. Just because of how things are run. And how separate A is from X. It's just how it is. It works almost as if the sides are produced by two different companies.
    Can't disagree here.

    Wanda never had mutant be a core element. It was a fact about her. But the problem is they never really did anything with it other than mention it occasionally. It just wasn't really used. It only changes her character sheet, because everything else is not impacted. Including who raised her. If they had her primarily in mutant stories, then I could see that, but that was far from the case.
    They do that with everyone, from Bobby Da Costa to Hank McCoy to Justice and Firestar, yet not-one complains about this when they're on the Avengers and this wasn't a problem when she was a minor character for the X-fandom (but they probably didn't like her much anyway, for the sin of not being an X-man and a mutant) until M-Day and now suddenly this becomes a huge problem people care about. I'm curious whether the negative reaction to M-Day would have been had it been Bobby rather than Wanda. It's not like his stint on Avengers revolved completely around his mutant identity.

    Shows pick random characters on them, and aren't based on popularity. Wanda received no popular push from those shows either. Wanda always had limited presence. It wasn't until the movies that she started getting known by way more people and actually has more merchandise. People talk about her a lot more. In and out of comics fandom. Cartoons never did that for her. And her in cartoons was also very limited.
    Wanda didn't make an impact on the Iron Man and Avengers United cartoons, not that they were Marvel strongest shows in that time period, but she had a fairly big presence in Wolverine and the X-men and Evolution. She may not have been a major character, but what they did give her was a huge boost in credibility outside the comics.

    Just like she can be a daughter of Magneto, and still be in the movies. She can not be his daughter or a mutant and be in the movies. Because there is no impact. And the reason is the ones I've stated. They never did much with it. Comics always retcon things to never exist. It's happened quite a few times and to Wanda herself. Before Mags, the Franks were her parents. You never hear about them now!
    The MCU is not as restricted like the comics are, especially after the new tv branch got made which heavily incorporates elements from the movies rather than being reduced to mentioning in passing. It'd be one thing had her show been made in the prior tv incarnation but starting from the movies themselves already gave her a massive advantage in interest since she didn't begin on a Netflix production. Wanda being revealed to be Magneto's daughter in the MCU would be a massive twist and the movies are vastly more capable of intertwining the various sections of their brands than the comics are. Iron Man met Rocket Raccoon! Magneto himself would be a huge villain in the movies just because of who he is and people love the character, it's why he appears so much in the Fox movies. You're right, comics canon is malleable, that's why I think it's only a matter of time before it switches back.

    She didn't show up much in that venue, so it's not a loss. It's not one less venue, because that didn't exist really. She was in a couple x-related cartoons, and a couple Avengers ones. But none of those propelled her. Because cartoons weren't consistent with using her, backed up with merchandise, backed up by movies. She was a bit part on them. And in a few episodes and that's it. Not the big push that they give to characters that they want out there a lot. Until the movies.
    Are you talking about the movies? She's been in the Avengers films since Age of Ultron and despite not being a major character her actions have impacted the plot - like in Civil War. The movie conflict starts over what she does on a mission. In Endgame her small role provides a huge victory over Thanos, something the Big Three Avengers can't do in half the time. Thats how it goes with characters who are more obscure, this happens with minor characters in X-men, but they can still grow in popularity. In the first X-men Kitty had a tiny cameo as a student who runs through a door by the end she's why Wolverine gets to travel back to the past in Days of Future Past.

    And honestly a lot of the hostility that exists between Wanda and the x-side is a lot of the reason I don't want it changed back. Because I feel like they missed an opportunity to fix a lot of that. And too many years have already passed, and she can't be in the x-books a lot anyway. So since that was botched, the better avenues are elsewhere. If it were actually core to her and I felt like she lost something from it, I'd feel differently. But factually she did not. And hypothetically it's unlikely to ever be a thing.
    Opportunities don't stay opportunities if they are squandered and Marvel needs to stop squandering Wanda. She's not going anywhere, all Marvel has to do is hire people to give her more priority. Marvel could switch her to the X-men any time they like, that's what they did to Bobby Da Costa and he's more obscure than she is. They made him team leader! Something being botched now isn't an excuse to give up. Opportunities come by trying, not by letting them go because of bad writing. The future is yet to be written, who knew something like Hickman's X-men would ever get published until it was published? What a character's "core" is doesn't come into it, this is about what the writers want and what editorial allows. And characters do change. Don't let the X-fandom get you down, they're not fans of Wanda and have no interest in understanding her. They don't get to decide Wanda's fate, Marvel does.

    So yeah, I want them to focus on the magic stuff because focusing on her powers and keeping those in control, teaching magic and being around people she's had a lot to do with is better for her. Her previous marriage, her friends, her new bf and her life were all A side. That's just how it is. She doesn't have any friends, relationships, etc. X-side. Just a bunch of people that would probably outright just murder her. So it'll never be a good or safe place for her to be. And her being there could just agitate people, especially younger mutants.
    It sounds like you've given up. Just because something is the status quo means it'll be the status quo forever. Who knew Bobby Da Costa would not only lead the Avengers but take over AIM? Thanks to Al Ewing that was a reality in 2015-2016. Maybe one day something like this will happen to Wanda.

    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 05-19-2020 at 01:02 AM.

  11. #281

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Can't disagree here.



    They do that with everyone, from Bobby Da Costa to Hank McCoy to Justice and Firestar, yet not-one complains about this when they're on the Avengers and this wasn't a problem when she was a minor character for the X-fandom (but they probably didn't like her much anyway, for the sin of not being an X-man and a mutant) until M-Day and now suddenly this becomes a huge problem people care about. I'm curious whether the negative reaction to M-Day would have been had it been Bobby rather than Wanda. It's not like his stint on Avengers revolved completely around his mutant identity.



    Wanda didn't make an impact on the Iron Man and Avengers United cartoons, not that they were Marvel strongest shows in that time period, but she had a fairly big presence in Wolverine and the X-men and Evolution. She may not have been a major character, but what they did give her was a huge boost in credibility outside the comics.



    The MCU is not as restricted like the comics are, especially after the new tv branch got made which heavily incorporates elements from the movies rather than being reduced to mentioning in passing. It'd be one thing had her show been made in the prior tv incarnation but starting from the movies themselves already gave her a massive advantage in interest since she didn't begin on a Netflix production. Wanda being revealed to be Magneto's daughter in the MCU would be a massive twist and the movies are vastly more capable of intertwining the various sections of their brands than the comics are. Iron Man met Rocket Raccoon! Magneto himself would be a huge villain in the movies just because of who he is and people love the character, it's why he appears so much in the Fox movies. You're right, comics canon is malleable, that's why I think it's only a matter of time before it switches back.



    Are you talking about the movies? She's been in the Avengers films since Age of Ultron and despite not being a major character her actions have impacted the plot - like in Civil War. The movie conflict starts over what she does on a mission. In Endgame her small role provides a huge victory over Thanos, something the Big Three Avengers can't do in half the time. Thats how it goes with characters who are more obscure, this happens with minor characters in X-men, but they can still grow in popularity. In the first X-men Kitty had a tiny cameo as a student who runs through a door by the end she's why Wolverine gets to travel back to the past in Days of Future Past.



    Opportunities don't stay opportunities if they are squandered and Marvel needs to stop squandering Wanda. She's not going anywhere, all Marvel has to do is hire people to give her more priority. Marvel could switch her to the X-men any time they like, that's what they did to Bobby Da Costa and he's more obscure than she is. They made him team leader! Something being botched now isn't an excuse to give up. Opportunities come by trying, not by letting them go because of bad writing. The future is yet to be written, who knew something like Hickman's X-men would ever get published until it was published? What a character's "core" is doesn't come into it, this is about what the writers want and what editorial allows. And characters do change. Don't let the X-fandom get you down, they're not fans of Wanda and have no interest in understanding her. They don't get to decide Wanda's fate, Marvel does.



    It sounds like you've given up. Just because something is the status quo means it'll be the status quo forever. Who knew Bobby Da Costa would not only lead the Avengers but take over AIM? Thanks to Al Ewing that was a reality in 2015-2016. Maybe one day something like this will happen to Wanda.

    Even in Wolverine and the X-Men, she was in a few shows, but the main theme became about other characters. Jean, Xavier and such.

    I was talking about the cartoons, not the movies. The movies she's been in for 6 years now.

    I'll agree that Marvel needs to stop squandering Wanda. They need to have her in more things. I just don't agree that being linked to mutants and Mags is what will make her more popular, because it didn't before.

    I haven't given up on the character, I've accepted reality and how Marvel does things.

    Bobby DeCosta =/= Wanda. Wanda was a mainline Avenger for a lot of years.
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  12. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I'll agree that Marvel needs to stop squandering Wanda. They need to have her in more things. I just don't agree that being linked to mutants and Mags is what will make her more popular, because it didn't before.
    And the "those things won't make her more popular because they didn't before" line of thinking is one I don't really agree with. For various reasons.

    I already talked about how I think it actually did make Wanda more popular via Evolution and WatXM (a time during which nobody outside comics cared about Avengers content much), which you disagree with, so I'm not going to rehash that. I knew Wanda existed and had a broad concept of her nearly a decade before I found out Lorna existed. That's my final mention on that specific subject this time.

    What I didn't talk about: the "it didn't make her popular before, therefore it never could" thinking could be applied to many things. It could be applied to Wanda. It could be, and mistakenly has been, applied to Lorna. A person could easily say "Wanda's existed since 1963 and never became a household name like Captain America, she had plenty of time for people to develop an interest in her and they didn't, putting her in movies or anything else is a waste of time, it could go to characters like X-23 who have become more popular in less time."

    But they'd be wrong, and we both know that. A character being treated poorly or opportunities getting squandered does not mean the character is a lost cause and shouldn't be used. Execs used to insist that a live action Wonder Woman film would bomb, then a real attempt was made and it became one of the most popular and acclaimed films to date.

    The same applies to story possibilities like Wanda being linked to mutants, and Magneto being her father. Perhaps certain things need to be squared away. Maybe time needs to be taken away from it. But it's only extremely rare cases (e.g. perhaps the sexism of Killing Joke and the intent behind it being one such case) that can't be reconciled with the right approach.

    I hate the concept of Lorna as Havok's girlfriend. I think it's been loaded with egregious sexism over the decades, it has only ever benefited Havok, and it's prevented Lorna from having her character properly explored while denying her countless things that are long overdue. But... in spite of that, I still don't say they need to be kept apart for all of time and there's no way they could ever be good as a couple. I'm very aware that even despite how much I'm against that pairing, enough time apart with Lorna properly explored for herself followed by an actual good effort at it could transform that pairing into a good thing. I think it would take at minimum 10 years of Lorna getting her due without Havok meddling in her affairs. But 10 years is finite, and serves a purpose.

    I also think fandom for the Magnus family and Wanda as a part of it speaks to what's possible with the right approach. Those fans clearly see something they like in the broad idea of her in the family. They see something of value and potential, even if official work fails to capture it. Just as I'm a huge Lorna fan who thinks Marvel's failed to treat Lorna well most of the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    And the "those things won't make her more popular because they didn't before" line of thinking is one I don't really agree with. For various reasons.

    I already talked about how I think it actually did make Wanda more popular via Evolution and WatXM (a time during which nobody outside comics cared about Avengers content much), which you disagree with, so I'm not going to rehash that. I knew Wanda existed and had a broad concept of her nearly a decade before I found out Lorna existed. That's my final mention on that specific subject this time.

    What I didn't talk about: the "it didn't make her popular before, therefore it never could" thinking could be applied to many things. It could be applied to Wanda. It could be, and mistakenly has been, applied to Lorna. A person could easily say "Wanda's existed since 1963 and never became a household name like Captain America, she had plenty of time for people to develop an interest in her and they didn't, putting her in movies or anything else is a waste of time, it could go to characters like X-23 who have become more popular in less time."

    But they'd be wrong, and we both know that. A character being treated poorly or opportunities getting squandered does not mean the character is a lost cause and shouldn't be used. Execs used to insist that a live action Wonder Woman film would bomb, then a real attempt was made and it became one of the most popular and acclaimed films to date.

    The same applies to story possibilities like Wanda being linked to mutants, and Magneto being her father. Perhaps certain things need to be squared away. Maybe time needs to be taken away from it. But it's only extremely rare cases (e.g. perhaps the sexism of Killing Joke and the intent behind it being one such case) that can't be reconciled with the right approach.

    I hate the concept of Lorna as Havok's girlfriend. I think it's been loaded with egregious sexism over the decades, it has only ever benefited Havok, and it's prevented Lorna from having her character properly explored while denying her countless things that are long overdue. But... in spite of that, I still don't say they need to be kept apart for all of time and there's no way they could ever be good as a couple. I'm very aware that even despite how much I'm against that pairing, enough time apart with Lorna properly explored for herself followed by an actual good effort at it could transform that pairing into a good thing. I think it would take at minimum 10 years of Lorna getting her due without Havok meddling in her affairs. But 10 years is finite, and serves a purpose.

    I also think fandom for the Magnus family and Wanda as a part of it speaks to what's possible with the right approach. Those fans clearly see something they like in the broad idea of her in the family. They see something of value and potential, even if official work fails to capture it. Just as I'm a huge Lorna fan who thinks Marvel's failed to treat Lorna well most of the time.
    It made her more known to you, but not millions of people. Not like the movies have. It didn't give her more merchandise, it didn't make her a household name.

    I didn't say she's a lost cause or shouldn't be used. But them wrecking the character has had a negative impact on the character and the wrecking of that character was when she was linked to being a mutant and Mags' kid. She was gone for 7 years. It didn't propel her at all. If anything, having that link created the situation she is now in. Because it was her link to Mags and being a mutant that put in Bendis' mind to create that story.

    I understand Magnus family fans wanting this. And it's fine to want it. There is nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with the fan art, and fan fiction.

    My problem isn't with Magnus family fans at all. And I want to make that clear. I just don't think Marvel is really into it. I don't think that even if they retcon it, that their treatment of it would change. Because of how their editorial is set up. And I feel that Wanda has been retconned too much already. Almost to the point of needing rebooted because her background makes zero sense when read in order. Because she goes from having no last name, to maybe being a kid of the Franks for about 9 years worth of comics, to maybe being a Maximoff, but no they just adopted her, her real dad is Magneto. Her powers equally treated as confusing.

    I feel like settling with the Maximoffs is the best, because Wanda felt those are her true parents. They raised her, she took their name and now is biologically related. Wanda doesn't want to be Mags' kid. So it's not a good place for her.

    And there are times where I feel like A and X are better separate, because modern stories are just very antagonistic. So I'm fine with her staying A-side, and like I've said, she has no one on the X-side. Everyone that she loves, that loves her is A-side. That's where her life is. And I feel if they wanted that to change, they'd have done that in the 30 years that they had her as Mags' kid or the 50+ years she was a mutant.
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  14. #284
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    I'll repeat again that for Wanda I think there's a case that the Magnus Family connection hurt her, because she was not allowed to appear in the "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" cartoon - she and Pietro were by far the most prominent Avengers who never appeared on that show, and the episodes were often based on comic storylines that she was originally in.

    If the Magneto connection hadn't already had her snapped up for "Wolverine & the X-Men," she would unquestionably have appeared on Avengers: EMH, and that show did a huge amount to boost knowledge of the Avengers and their lore in the general public. Characters like the Wasp and Hank Pym got a big boost from the series and I think Wanda could have too, while the Wolverine & the X-Men version, while a good character, had almost nothing to do with her comics lore at all.

    Not that this proves that she and Pietro shouldn't be mutants or Magneto's children, but I think they lose a lot when they are thought of primarily as Magneto's children. For a while after House of M it really looked like that was all they were ever going to be, and if they hadn't made it into the MCU I suspect that would still be the case.

    Of course, Jan and Hank's boost from the series has not carried over into the comics, so I don't pretend that being on the cartoon series would have made Wanda popular with writers/editors again. I just wish she'd been on the cartoon that was, and probably will remain, the best animated representation of the Avengers.

  15. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I didn't say she's a lost cause or shouldn't be used.
    Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come across like I said you did. I meant it as a bridge to my following point. We both know Wanda isn't a lost cause, and we know she should be used. Wouldn't the same apply to story ideas, given proper depiction, just like Wanda herself has a shot if she's given proper depiction?

    I'm not sure I could say much else without repeating myself, so I'll just acknowledge our differences of opinion on this one and leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I just don't think Marvel is really into it.
    This, sadly, I understand and can agree with. I have no faith in Marvel actually caring enough about Lorna to do her justice, so I'd be lying if I said Marvel in its current state could do any better for Wanda.

    I actually realized and made the point on Twitter recently (and considered making a thread here for input, but hadn't decided for sure yet) that Marvel tends to treat its women like "powerful failures" and its men like "powerful victims." At least in the X-Men books anyway. Magneto and Wolverine are most known for being mistreated by humans, while Jean and Wanda are most known for losing control of their powers. Rogue's most known for losing control of her powers while kissing a boy. Lorna's recent origin story presents her as a "powerful failure" but at least she was a little girl at the time, whereas Genosha was a mix but leans more toward "powerful victim" (and notably, Marvel hasn't done anything with it since it happened... hopefully to be changed with Empyre).

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    And there are times where I feel like A and X are better separate, because modern stories are just very antagonistic.
    Honestly, I see the AvX and similar stuff and think Marvel just saw the 90s interest in Batman fighting Superman and thought "what if we do that, but whole franchises." Culturally, people are starting to shift away from interest in those dynamics, and toward intriguing team-ups, families, etc.
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