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  1. #46

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    I wouldn't say that fans have a better sense overall, but just a sense of what they like. Since that kind of stuff is subjective and not everyone is always in agreement. But I don't have a problem with fan art or fan fiction. Unless it's the rare ones that take things too far and use it to harass creators. Then it goes a bit too far. I've seen it with shows like Supernatural and Arrow and it gets a bit scary.
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  2. #47

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    I think fans do have a better sense, for a number of reasons. But it's fair to consider a breakdown of factors - which I'm inviting corrections where needed.

    Work from Marvel is a mix of levels. You have people working there who are fans. You also have people who work there because it's a job, like any other. They may not personally care much, but it's an add for their portfolio. Regardless of which, everyone employed has their focus first and foremost on their lives and careers. In comes office politics. Sometimes this means offices eagerly collaborating, but more often (thanks in large part to the "my fave can beat your fave" nature of old comics culture), it means various offices and people in positions of power fighting for control and dominance. To make what they're working on look better and more important, and themselves by extension, lining themselves up for promotions/raises.

    This is more common in the upper echelons of corporate hierarchy than lower, but the people lower down are incentivized to put their own or fans' interests and desires aside and cater to the whims of whoever is above them. Because for people lower down, it's all about getting gigs, staying employed, making a "good impression." The personality of who they work for doesn't even really matter. Even if it's the nicest, most open-minded person on the planet, the vast majority of pitches that reach them are going to be designed around that person's interests and biases.

    Why bother pitching any stories that involve Polaris to someone who's gone on the record saying he thinks there isn't enough fan interest to justify her getting any real use? At best, you're wasting a pitch, at worst, you're hurting your chances of getting future work compared to others who pitch projects they want to see. You're very rarely going to see someone who isn't a big name like Neil Gaiman pitch something without tailoring it to their audience.

    And this doesn't even go into the subconscious bias of who gets hired in the first place.


    Fandom has none of these problems. If I want to see Lorna spend time with Wanda, I don't have to negotiate with Tom Brevoort, offer to give up Wolverine for a year to get the sisters together for one issue, make Wanda look like a jerk because the editor I'm pitching it to hates her, etc. I can just write their awesome sister time. Or draw it. I don't need to pass it by a committee for approval, I don't need a bunch of money to have it printed and sent to comic book shops across the world.

    Or an actual real world example: when Polaris, Rachel and Havok were out in space, they got stuck in limbo with no stories told for a year... because two offices at Marvel failed to communicate. Cosmic office thought they went back to X-Men, X-Men office thought cosmic still had the characters. Doesn't happen with fans.

    As a fan, I can write whatever I want whenever I want, another fan can write what they want whenever they want, and through fan culture the fans can build a truer picture of who these characters are than anything coming out of a company hamstrung by egos, biases and politics. Fans can use characters where relevant, while Marvel might refuse to use characters because they're "too obscure," or "not A-list or B-list," etc.

    As far as I'm concerned, I think fans that do things like acknowledge Lorna surviving Genosha or show the Magnus family fighting the good fight together have more validity than an editor at Marvel who doesn't have enough respect for Lorna to acknowledge her as one of Magneto's daughters, or Axis making the twins not Magneto's kids anymore cause Marvel (read: Perlmutter) was mad about Fox having the X-Men film rights.
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  3. #48

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    Yeah, but fans also aren't aware of some canon either, nor care. It's dependent on factors. Obviously you know your favorite character usually best, but Marvel are handling an entire universe.

    And yes, there are mandates. That's how Wanda got trashed. But there are plenty of writers that handled her well. And there's plenty of fan fiction that's also handled her terribly. That's why it's subjective. It's not clean and dry.
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  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Yeah, but fans also aren't aware of some canon either, nor care. It's dependent on factors. Obviously you know your favorite character usually best, but Marvel are handling an entire universe.

    And yes, there are mandates. That's how Wanda got trashed. But there are plenty of writers that handled her well. And there's plenty of fan fiction that's also handled her terribly. That's why it's subjective. It's not clean and dry.
    True that there's Marvel work that handles things well and fanfiction that handles things horribly, but at least horrible fanfic doesn't try to force all other fanfics to treat its horribleness as the only option, nor does it dictate what other fanfics can and can't do. Fanfic doesn't have a governing body or hierarchy that decides one character should get everything while another character shouldn't get anything.

    Subjectivity in fanfic, too, at least has the merit of love and respect for its main subject without getting in the way of someone else showing love and respect for a different subject. Whereas Marvel will throw characters under the bus to boost their faves, with nothing positive gained to make up for it.
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  5. #50

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    Well it's unofficial, so it has the liberty of doing that. Marvel has to try to maintain a cohesive universe while having different people handling things. That's why fanfic has it's own value. It's for fans to fill in where they are feeling something isn't to their taste. And believe me, I understand that. When Wanda was out of comics for 7 years, fanfiction was all there was. But the downside was that it wasn't canon. And even though I was just so disenfranchised by what was going on at Marvel at the time, there were plenty of readers that liked it.
    Was Curlytop

  6. #51

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    I'd say fan work has a higher value than Marvel's work for all of the above reasons, plus again, the fact that the creators of these characters aren't around and working on it. What Marvel provides is really just tightly controlled fanfiction with a higher budget that you have to pay for.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I think the reason they are portrayed like that in some of the games, is those are contracted out. Disney/Marvel don't do games themselves. They rent out their license.
    Outside of films what reaches the widest audience globally? That would be games followed by animated. Games have a real impact on what the masses believe to be true. How many fans actually know about the Axis retcon? 60-70K? How many know that Wanda and Pietro are being labeled as Magneto's children in the major Marvel games out there right now? Tens of millions globally.

    For a few years the whole family that were owned in part or whole by Fox were deep sixed from Marvel games. We saw as relations with Fox improve Wanda, Pietro and Magneto start to appear in Marvel games again, but you are right they license out the games to people that fill in the details. Its been the game makers that have ignored the Axis retcon pretty thoroughly.

    At the same point in time when The Gifted was airing it was clear Marvel had given the order that game makers don't do synergy with it or use those characters so Lorna didn't benefit from the détente with Fox. She isn't anywhere in games at the moment which is a change from the start of last decade. Games are a carney in a coal mine for characters that are going to be used in a big way by Marvel as its clear they use two sets of characters those they are ordered to for synergy reasons and those that are viewed as popular.

    Crystal lost out on the early Inhuman push because they didn't know if she was a joint rights character as she was an actual member of the F4 for awhile. Though they resolved that she wasn't you see with games some lingering impacts of the Inhuman push still as in Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 out last Summer having her. Though it takes two or more years for those kind of games to get out the door. With console games it takes less time as in maybe half a year to a year to craft new characters.

    The Magnus family today are having a good period of time in games overall with the exception being Lorna. Though the Inhuman side is likely about to go through a rough period.

  8. #53

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    I don't think that's necessarily true. Considering some of the most celebrated runs in comics and some of the talent that has worked at Marvel. I heavily disagree. Afterall Twilight was fanfiction and it was awful!
    Was Curlytop

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Outside of films what reaches the widest audience globally? That would be games followed by animated. Games have a real impact on what the masses believe to be true. How many fans actually know about the Axis retcon? 60-70K? How many know that Wanda and Pietro are being labeled as Magneto's children in the major Marvel games out there right now? Tens of millions globally.

    For a few years the whole family that were owned in part or whole by Fox were deep sixed from Marvel games. We saw as relations with Fox improve Wanda, Pietro and Magneto start to appear in Marvel games again, but you are right they license out the games to people that fill in the details. Its been the game makers that have ignored the Axis retcon pretty thoroughly.

    At the same point in time when The Gifted was airing it was clear Marvel had given the order that game makers don't do synergy with it or use those characters so Lorna didn't benefit from the détente with Fox. She isn't anywhere in games at the moment which is a change from the start of last decade. Games are a carney in a coal mine for characters that are going to be used in a big way by Marvel as its clear they use two sets of characters those they are ordered to for synergy reasons and those that are viewed as popular.

    Crystal lost out on the early Inhuman push because they didn't know if she was a joint rights character as she was an actual member of the F4 for awhile. Though they resolved that she wasn't you see with games some lingering impacts of the Inhuman push still as in Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 out last Summer having her. Though it takes two or more years for those kind of games to get out the door. With console games it takes less time as in maybe half a year to a year to craft new characters.

    The Magnus family today are having a good period of time in games overall with the exception being Lorna. I have the feeling Crystal is about to be included in that exception.
    Marvel games don't get a big audience. Surprisingly. Spider-man did well, but that's Spider-man. MUA 3 did moderately well but then was quickly buried. MH only achieved 14,000 people playing at it's highest numbers. It is still very niche. Even in mobile which is the most popular type of game, Marvel games aren't near the top of the list.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Marvel games don't get a big audience.
    Depends on the game.

    Marvel Future Fight breaks the 70 million players mark

    That means 70 million people maybe a fraction of a percent that read comics whose view of being up to date with Wanda means using their bio.

    Last edited by jmc247; 01-08-2020 at 01:58 PM.

  11. #56
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    There's a decent chunk of "movie Wanda" fans who are definitely aware of her lineage and view it as a positive, thinking it adds something to her character suggesting how dangerous or whatever she can potentially be. Like it makes her more "spicy" next to a lot of the more bland Avengers.
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  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Depends on the game.

    Marvel Future Fight breaks the 70 million players mark

    That means 70 million people maybe a fraction of a percent that read comics whose view of being up to date with Wanda means using their bio.

    Yes it did. It was one of the few that did. The biggest games though reach billions and make billions. So thousands and the rare millions doesn't really compete. Considering we now have 7 billion people in the world. Another one that hit millions was MAA. It hit the same numbers, and was cancelled. It's just those numbers aren't considered very big (unimaginable really) to the overall market. So they don't even touch things like PUBG or CoD, Pokemon Go etc.
    Last edited by GenericUsername; 01-08-2020 at 03:16 PM.
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  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    There's a decent chunk of "movie Wanda" fans who are definitely aware of her lineage and view it as a positive, thinking it adds something to her character suggesting how dangerous or whatever she can potentially be. Like it makes her more "spicy" next to a lot of the more bland Avengers.
    They aren't very aware of her. They aren't very well read. Which isn't a bad thing. It provides a clean slate without all the retcons. But, they only seem to know of HoM. And the character has had thousands of appearances. And they only seem to want the story that she was comatose through. And used as a plot device. Her power feats are only a fraction of the character and in that particular story, she wasn't using her own power.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    There's a decent chunk of "movie Wanda" fans who are definitely aware of her lineage and view it as a positive, thinking it adds something to her character suggesting how dangerous or whatever she can potentially be. Like it makes her more "spicy" next to a lot of the more bland Avengers.
    I wonder if they'll be disappointed when MCU Magneto shows up and he's not Wanda's father. Maybe not - headcanon is always possible, especially in a universe where literally anything can happen.

    But yes, I think many people bring their own ideas of Wanda's background to flesh out the character in the MCU, especially since she's had so little screen time and in "Age of Ultron" her character was not very consistent. WandaVision will be her first starring role and therefore the first opportunity to really see what Feige and co. think her personality is.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salarta View Post
    True that there's Marvel work that handles things well and fanfiction that handles things horribly, but at least horrible fanfic doesn't try to force all other fanfics to treat its horribleness as the only option, nor does it dictate what other fanfics can and can't do. Fanfic doesn't have a governing body or hierarchy that decides one character should get everything while another character shouldn't get anything.

    Subjectivity in fanfic, too, at least has the merit of love and respect for its main subject without getting in the way of someone else showing love and respect for a different subject. Whereas Marvel will throw characters under the bus to boost their faves, with nothing positive gained to make up for it.
    I share your appreciation of fanfics. Even it's not all the time marvelously written, there is always a sincerity and a freshness that I find respectable. It is made with heart and it has value in itself.
    From time to time, I find a work that is remarkablely written with a rich vocabulary, a intense plot, some suspense… in short, sometimes, it is surprisingly very talented. More, some works are so considerable that they are impressing.

    My advantage is, as English is not my first language, a writing style that has flaws doesn't bother me if it has other qualities…
    For me, each fanfiction is in a Petri dish where a story can evolve freely without any constraints.

    There is also a good ambiance among people who write and read fanction: everyone respects the headcanon of the other person.

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