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  1. #181
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Or it is a misdirect and Peggy sacrifices her life to return Sharon to youth.
    I'd be down for that.

  2. #182
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterboy View Post
    Alexa Lukin was a key to the Winter Soldier Program?????
    The OVERRATED Coates is ruining Brubaker’s run!

    Attachment 93455
    In august of 1988, After his years bodyguarding Major General Vasily Karpov in the Middle East, The Winter Soldier was placed into stasis.

    Attachment 93456
    In Brubaker’s Captain America (2005) #1, we saw that Aleksander Lukin refused to sell the Winter Soldier's body in stasis to Red Skull, this happened around the year 2000.
    In the same issue, Lukin himself said that the Winter Soldier was apparently very useful in the Cold War. Alkesander Lukin was Karpov’s protégé (Captain America #5),
    if the Winter Soldier had been brought out of stasis, he would have known.
    , In other words, WINTER SOLDIER WAS NOT USED BETWEEN 1988 AND 2000!
    Alexa Lukin was not the key to the Winter Soldier Program because there was no winter soldier program anymore!

    Alexa Lukin?
    Respect my favorite Captain America run, Mr. Coates.
    Wait and see. I know your as passionate about Brubaker’s run as I am, and while this is feeling antithetical right now we may have some surprises yet ... one’s not determined to undercut that amazing Cap run but rather pay homage to it. Coates is on record as being incredibly affected and influenced by Brubaker’s run. I think (and hope) he’ll come through expanding on Brubaker, and hopefully adding to the Winter Soldier legacy.

    Now if only he’d work Romanoff into this run, I’d be extremely satisfied. Honestly, he’s done well by Storm and T’Challa in his Black Panther series, he is showing some deference to previous writers including Hudson and Priest. I see no reason not to expect the same towards Ed, James, and Natasha.
    Last edited by tliscord; 02-21-2020 at 12:08 AM.

  3. #183
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    My issues with this issue:

    Harkness' involvement has never been hinted at.
    Ronnie is a bad nickname.
    We don't learn why it was deemed crucial to resurrect Peggy. Or if she was ever dead at all.
    Keeping Peggy's identity hidden was just for the drama, since the secrets were as bad to Steve as the shock would be. And the reveal was completely underwhelming.
    The thing with Sharon's soul is also completely out of left field, and it kind of bugs me that Peggy is the one to do the infodump.

    Really, a lot of this arc has felt like an MCU!Peggy fan writing Peggy back into comics, turning her into some kind of ninja and Sharon into her eager protege.

  4. #184
    Extraordinary Member Winterboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tliscord View Post
    Wait and see. I know your as passionate about Brubaker’s run as I am, and while this is feeling antithetical right now we may have some surprises yet ... one’s not determined to undercut that amazing Cap run but rather pay homage to it. Coates is on record as being incredibly affected and influenced by Brubaker’s run. I think (and hope) he’ll come through expanding on Brubaker, and hopefully adding to the Winter Soldier legacy.

    Now if only he’d work Romanoff into this run, I’d be extremely satisfied. Honestly, he’s done well by Storm and T’Challa in his Black Panther series, he is showing some deference to previous writers including Hudson and Priest. I see no reason not to expect the same towards Ed, James, and Natasha.
    I really would like to have your optimism, my friend.
    "Who wouldn't go out with the Black Widow? I'd strangle a litter of kittens for one dinner with her!"
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  5. #185
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanSkavisnky View Post
    My issues with this issue:

    Harkness' involvement has never been hinted at.
    Ronnie is a bad nickname.
    We don't learn why it was deemed crucial to resurrect Peggy. Or if she was ever dead at all.
    Keeping Peggy's identity hidden was just for the drama, since the secrets were as bad to Steve as the shock would be. And the reveal was completely underwhelming.
    The thing with Sharon's soul is also completely out of left field, and it kind of bugs me that Peggy is the one to do the infodump.

    Really, a lot of this arc has felt like an MCU!Peggy fan writing Peggy back into comics, turning her into some kind of ninja and Sharon into her eager protege.
    Here's what I think happened in regards to this run:

    We have evidence re: monthly solicitations, that there are at least two issues where the plots were scraped entirely (an issue where Bobbi and Steve got to Madripoor and an issue where Jess and Steve tackle an issue of someone poisoning the water supply). It's clear to me that Coates originally planned this run to be longer, more detailed, and that Steve's journey to reestablish his good name was supposed to be more in-depth. But, they cut it short. Meanwhile, both the Thor and Iron Man titles relaunch this past month. It's announced that issue #25 of the Cap run is probably going to be the last of this current run, which means there's probably a relaunch in the near future for Cap as well. Even this new issue out this week (#19) went through massive revisions, because originally Masters was listed as the sole artist on the issue, then, last minute, literally just a couple of weeks ago, they add TWO more artists, which means this new issue went through some serious last minute revisions.

    Naturally, rushing and revising things makes things not go as smoothly.

    I mean, I understand why Marvel is doing it. There was that report at NYCC that stated that manga and YA graphic novels are outselling superhero comics by a country mile. This is worrying. Relaunching titles is a way to get people buying again. Just look at Thor, issue #1 of Thor under Cates was the only Marvel title to sell over a 100k last month in January. It's profitable for Marvel to do this. It keeps the lights on. And I think the only reason the Iron Man relaunch didn't do that well was because it's not Tony Stark who's currently in the armor and that backfired on them majorly. Sad as it is to say, there are only a small handful of characters left who are popular enough to carry a solo title these days, even big named characters who have an MCU presence are struggling to sell, so now is just not a good time to replace any of those left who do sell well with anyone else, even if it's already part of the mythos (i.e. Arno Stark being Iron Man 2020 was established in the 80's). So while I understand why Marvel is doing it, re: the constant need for relaunches, yes, it does make the book a little more choppy and inconsistent than it otherwise would have been.

    That said, I still, personally, found enjoyment in issue #19 and in the DoL backstory despite all of that. But that's just me and I do get why everyone seems frustrated, I do.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 02-21-2020 at 10:53 AM.

  6. #186
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanSkavisnky View Post
    My issues with this issue:

    Harkness' involvement has never been hinted at.
    Ronnie is a bad nickname.
    We don't learn why it was deemed crucial to resurrect Peggy. Or if she was ever dead at all.
    Keeping Peggy's identity hidden was just for the drama, since the secrets were as bad to Steve as the shock would be. And the reveal was completely underwhelming.
    The thing with Sharon's soul is also completely out of left field, and it kind of bugs me that Peggy is the one to do the infodump.

    Really, a lot of this arc has felt like an MCU!Peggy fan writing Peggy back into comics, turning her into some kind of ninja and Sharon into her eager protege.
    I'm probably in the minority here but I really don't like that they brought Peggy back. It seems to me like Coates is trying to have his Winter Soldier moment with Peggy and it doesn't have the same emotional impact to me.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I'm probably in the minority here but I really don't like that they brought Peggy back. It seems to me like Coates is trying to have his Winter Soldier moment with Peggy and it doesn't have the same emotional impact to me.
    I think the problem is twofold:

    1) Steve has barely reacted to anything. He finds out Peggy is alive, and his response is "huh, that's weird, better investigate" but...that's about it. His attention is immediately shifted to Sharon being in danger. Maybe it will be explored in later issues, but as it stands, right now his focus is mostly on saving Sharon. By contrast, once Steve discovered that Bucky was theoretically the Winter Soldier, he had a lot of complicated feelings.

    2) Peggy isn't super important to Steve in the comics. This isn't the MCU. They had a romantic relationships, sure, but it was told entirely in flashback and not developed. She's not a major death, and throughout his print history, the various things that happened to her didn't exactly haunt Steve like Bucky's "death" or Sharon's "death" did. How many times did I read a panel with Bucky exploding in that damn plane? So many. For years, readers felt Steve's pain at losing Bucky, so his return had a major impact. Readers don't have the same connection to 616!Peggy. Why should readers root for her return? There's not a major reason to do so. It just leans heavily into MCU Synergy, but I don't think many hardcore Peggy or Steggy stans are even into the comics.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Here's what I think happened in regards to this run:

    We have evidence re: monthly solicitations, that there are at least two issues where the plots were scraped entirely (an issue where Bobbi and Steve got to Madripoor and an issue where Jess and Steve tackle an issue of someone poisoning the water supply). It's clear to me that Coates originally planned this run to be longer, more detailed, and that Steve's journey to reestablish his good name was supposed to be more in-depth. But, they cut it short. Meanwhile, both the Thor and Iron Man titles relaunch this past month. It's announced that issue #25 of the Cap run is probably going to be the last of this current run, which means there's probably a relaunch in the near future for Cap as well. Even this new issue out this week (#19) went through massive revisions, because originally Masters was listed as the sole artist on the issue, then, last minute, literally just a couple of weeks ago, they add TWO more artists, which means this new issue went through some serious last minute revisions.

    Naturally, rushing and revising things makes things not go as smoothly.

    I mean, I understand why Marvel is doing it. There was that report at NYCC that stated that manga and YA graphic novels are outselling superhero comics by a country mile. This is worrying. Relaunching titles is a way to get people buying again. Just look at Thor, issue #1 of Thor under Cates was the only Marvel title to sell over a 100k last month in January. It's profitable for Marvel to do this. It keeps the lights on. And I think the only reason the Iron Man relaunch didn't do that well was because it's not Tony Stark who's currently in the armor and that backfired on them majorly. Sad as it is to say, there are only a small handful of characters left who are popular enough to carry a solo title these days, even big named characters who have an MCU presence are struggling to sell, so now is just not a good time to replace any of those left who do sell well with anyone else, even if it's already part of the mythos (i.e. Arno Stark being Iron Man 2020 was established in the 80's). So while I understand why Marvel is doing it, re: the constant need for relaunches, yes, it does make the book a little more choppy and inconsistent than it otherwise would have been.
    That makes sense, actually. Shame, though, as I loved the opening arc of this run.

  9. #189
    Incredible Member strathcona's Avatar
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    In my mind Peggy's relationship with Gabe Jones was more important than her relationship with Cap. I wish that had been explored more... or maybe Gabe can be brought back too.

  10. #190
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strathcona View Post
    In my mind Peggy's relationship with Gabe Jones was more important than her relationship with Cap. I wish that had been explored more... or maybe Gabe can be brought back too.
    That’s true!

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I think the problem is twofold:

    1) Steve has barely reacted to anything. He finds out Peggy is alive, and his response is "huh, that's weird, better investigate" but...that's about it. His attention is immediately shifted to Sharon being in danger. Maybe it will be explored in later issues, but as it stands, right now his focus is mostly on saving Sharon. By contrast, once Steve discovered that Bucky was theoretically the Winter Soldier, he had a lot of complicated feelings.

    2) Peggy isn't super important to Steve in the comics. This isn't the MCU. They had a romantic relationships, sure, but it was told entirely in flashback and not developed. She's not a major death, and throughout his print history, the various things that happened to her didn't exactly haunt Steve like Bucky's "death" or Sharon's "death" did. How many times did I read a panel with Bucky exploding in that damn plane? So many. For years, readers felt Steve's pain at losing Bucky, so his return had a major impact. Readers don't have the same connection to 616!Peggy. Why should readers root for her return? There's not a major reason to do so. It just leans heavily into MCU Synergy, but I don't think many hardcore Peggy or Steggy stans are even into the comics.
    I agree with this. I just don't see the importance of bringing her back and how it impacts Steve. They could have made Dryad Gail Runciter or Bernie Rosenthal for all the impact it has.

  12. #192
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I think the problem is twofold:

    1) Steve has barely reacted to anything. He finds out Peggy is alive, and his response is "huh, that's weird, better investigate" but...that's about it. His attention is immediately shifted to Sharon being in danger. Maybe it will be explored in later issues, but as it stands, right now his focus is mostly on saving Sharon. By contrast, once Steve discovered that Bucky was theoretically the Winter Soldier, he had a lot of complicated feelings.

    2) Peggy isn't super important to Steve in the comics. This isn't the MCU. They had a romantic relationships, sure, but it was told entirely in flashback and not developed. She's not a major death, and throughout his print history, the various things that happened to her didn't exactly haunt Steve like Bucky's "death" or Sharon's "death" did. How many times did I read a panel with Bucky exploding in that damn plane? So many. For years, readers felt Steve's pain at losing Bucky, so his return had a major impact. Readers don't have the same connection to 616!Peggy. Why should readers root for her return? There's not a major reason to do so. It just leans heavily into MCU Synergy, but I don't think many hardcore Peggy or Steggy stans are even into the comics.
    Got that right, it is synergy. They even made her look like Hayley Atwell. Comics Peggy is supposed to be blonde, not brunette.
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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Got that right, it is synergy. They even made her look like Hayley Atwell. Comics Peggy is supposed to be blonde, not brunette.
    616 Peggy Carter has been shown as brunette in comics decades before the MCU version was introduced. She was brunette her entire time as the communications officer of the Avengers Support Crew.

  14. #194
    Fantastic Member Storm17's Avatar
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    If they are starting the title over again, I wonder who will be writing it. Will they stick with Coates or go with someone else?

  15. #195
    Extraordinary Member Winterboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm17 View Post
    If they are starting the title over again, I wonder who will be writing it. Will they stick with Coates or go with someone else?
    No more Coates, please!
    "Who wouldn't go out with the Black Widow? I'd strangle a litter of kittens for one dinner with her!"
    Adrian Toomes aka the Vulture


    "Natasha Romanoff, A.K.A. Black Widow - ex-KGB, formerly with S.H.I.E.L.D...Probably the brains of this operation.I have followed her career, and she has been consistently UNDERRATED."

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