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  1. #331
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Is there a script online for the Captain America Serpent Society movie which turned out to be Cap Civil War? I just read about it and am flabbergasted. Is there something in the audio commentary for Civil War?

  2. #332
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Is there a script online for the Captain America Serpent Society movie which turned out to be Cap Civil War? I just read about it and am flabbergasted. Is there something in the audio commentary for Civil War?
    No, it was just a joke by Feige and Marvel to not let on that they were doing Civil War right away.

    On the topic of Civil War.. I've been growing more and more bothered that this was the 3rd installment for Cap. Would've loved a more Cap/Bucky/Sam intimately focused film following Winter Soldier. But I guess I can't complain too much with the show coming up.
    Last edited by cc008; 05-24-2020 at 09:52 PM.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    No, it was just a joke by Feige and Marvel to not let on that they were doing Civil War right away.

    On the topic of Civil War.. I've been growing more and more bothered that this was the 3rd installment for Cap. Would've loved a more Cap/Bucky/Sam intimately focused film following Winter Soldier. But I guess I can't complain too much with the show coming up.
    I think in the end, it being the 3rd movie, worked out better in the long run for all the characters minus Sharon.

  4. #334
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Is there a script online for the Captain America Serpent Society movie which turned out to be Cap Civil War? I just read about it and am flabbergasted. Is there something in the audio commentary for Civil War?
    Actually, originally Captain America 3 was going to be Jack Kirby's Madbomb story. This was confirmed both by the Russos to Entertainment Weekly, which you can read here:

    Captain America: Civil War was almost a zombie movie

    And by Markus and McFeely at their 2016 SDCC panel, for which I was personally present.

    We could have had it all. Still slightly bitter that they went with Civil War instead and I may always be. Though I must say, even though Feige was joking, I would have LOVED a Serpent Society movie as well. Particularly if Rachel was present. Ah man, what I would have given to see Rachel and Steve interact on the big screen *sigh*.

    Anyway, the Serpent Society have great stories associated with them, Feige may have been joking but there is plenty there to work with. Like the one where they poison the water supply of DC and Ronald Reagan is turned into a snake and Cap fights Reagan with the literal American flag, an arc which still amuses/tickles me to no end to this day. Mark Gruenwald, I adore you, you were taken from us far too soon. Wish you were here. I could use a good Gruenwald Cap story right now. :_(

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    I think in the end, it being the 3rd movie, worked out better in the long run for all the characters minus Sharon.
    Agree to disagree. Mostly because I don't feel that a movie called Captain America should focus on an Avengers story for which 50% of the screentime is shared with another character/Avenger. Especially considering there are SO MANY Cap ONLY stories they could have told that would have made incredible movies, especially Madbomb, which was arguably Jack Kirby at his finest. But to each their own.

  5. #335
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Still my favorite thing Mark Waid wrote, and considering I love all of Waid’s Cap, that is saying something.

    Kirby on page with Cap (with Joe Simon asking “who is it?”)...

    Last edited by capandkirby; 05-25-2020 at 08:48 AM.

  6. #336
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    And speaking of Joe Simon, for any Cap fans who may be interested, Joe Simon’s granddaughter, Megan Margulies, has a book coming out this August on Joe Simon. She wrote an article about her upcoming book and the impact of art on culture, here...

    Finding Space for Art in Dark Times

    Excerpt: ”It’s hard to imagine now, but Nazi sympathizers were so prevalent that on February 20th, 1939, a rally was held in Madison Square Garden that hosted 20,000 supporters and members of the German American Bund. Publicly, without shame, and for all to see, thousands of hands shot upward like knives, thousands of voices chorused “Heil Hitler.”

    Scrolling through photos of the event, I see my grandfather in a crowd of protestors standing outside Madison Square Garden. New York City’s mounted police form a barrier of 1,500 officers to keep them from colliding with the bundsman. The man I see isn’t really my grandfather, but it looks just like him—his dark curls, his lanky frame. This misidentification allows me to hear my grandfather’s internal dialogue. How could he, the son of poor Jewish immigrants, have his say in the matter? Where could he channel his rage? “Don’t take shit from anyone,” he used to say.

    My grandfather worked for Fox Publications at the time, but he and fellow artist Jack Kirby rented an art studio where they worked after-hours. Hunched over their desks all night, they brainstormed new character ideas and worked on freelance assignments that offered needed extra income. It was here in this studio, their own bubble of imagination, that Captain America was created. While the newspapers reported the horrors overseas, as the city buzzed with fear and heated debate over whether the United States should enter the war, my grandfather put his pencil to paper.


    The book itself is called “My Captain America”.


  7. #337
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Weird. I absolutely loathed Kirbyís Madbomb, despite loving him in general. So much so I dropped out of comics altogether. I was so enamored with Englehartís portrayal and development of Cap, that I still recall with utter shock how wrong Kirbyís take felt. Truly, after watching Steve create a thoroughly nuanced character and guiding the strip into some form of present day (the 70ís) relevance, Jackís whole run just felt crass and really out of place.

    I know this sounds ridiculous and over the top to say given these are just comics, and it probably says more about my perception of Englehartís achievement than any type if Kirby ď failureĒ. To this day it still feels like a watershed moment for me and my perception of Cap.

  8. #338
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tliscord View Post
    Weird. I absolutely loathed Kirby’s Madbomb, despite loving him in general. So much so I dropped out of comics altogether. I was so enamored with Englehart’s portrayal and development of Cap, that I still recall with utter shock how wrong Kirby’s take felt. Truly, after watching Steve create a thoroughly nuanced character and guiding the strip into some form of present day (the 70’s) relevance, Jack’s whole run just felt crass and really out of place.

    I know this sounds ridiculous and over the top to say given these are just comics, and it probably says more about my perception of Englehart’s achievement than any type if Kirby “ failure”. To this day it still feels like a watershed moment for me and my perception of Cap.
    *shrug* Not so weird. We all have our preferences largely based on our initial exposure. For example, I could never figure out why people regarded Brubaker as the second coming. But my first exposure to Cap was Gruenwald, who was more character-centric (he focused a lot on Steve as a person: his hopes, his doubts, his hobbies, his follies) whereas Brubaker was more plot-driven. For example I don’t think Brubaker referenced Steve hobbies (like the fact that Steve is an artist) once in any of his work on Cap. Not once. I’m not saying Brubaker was bad, he’s a great writer, but different. I just personally tend to prefer character-driven writers, that’s just my personal preference. So that early impression from Gruenwald and then Waid set my gold standards for Cap.

    Ironically, though, I love the Madbomb story for the political undertones, so I guess it’s one example where I did value plot over characterization/individualization.

  9. #339
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    brubaker was cap on edge, angrier and more aggressive due to stress

    Gruenwald/waid had a more baseline cap, thats how id describe it

  10. #340
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Thought I’d give a brief rundown of why I feel the Madbomb story would have been a better fit for a Cap film than Civil War and what I mean by I enjoyed the story for the political undertones...

    I.e. it all boils down to Kirby pretty much predicting the current times we’re living in.

    The effect of a certain sensationalized news station *coughFoxNewscough* on a portion of the population or the Madbomb, same result...



    Billionaires and people afraid to give let go of even a smidgen of their privilege plotting together to ruin democracy...



    Unqualified offspring in positions of power and nepotism...



    Basically as silly as this story got at times in, the fact that the most wild elements have actually happened/are happening shows that Kirby was pretty on-point for a lot of it.

    (There’s a reason Coates is currently using the Chadwick’s even now, as I’m pretty sure he’s made this correlation, too).

    Also, I’m out of image allowances for this post but Sam Wilson calling out the founding fathers for being slave owners was another highlight of Kirby’s writing.

  11. #341
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    brubaker was cap on edge, angrier and more aggressive due to stress

    Gruenwald/waid had a more baseline cap, thats how id describe it

    Yes, that’s an excellent way to put it.

  12. #342
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    *breaks a guy's neck*

    "Sharon, I am having a difficult day."
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

  13. #343
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    *breaks a guy's neck*

    "Sharon, I am having a difficult day."
    LOL. As opposed to Gruenwald... “OMG Bernie, I may have accidentally killed this bad dude when we were fighting. I hate myself now.”

  14. #344
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    *shrug* Not so weird. We all have our preferences largely based on our initial exposure. For example, I could never figure out why people regarded Brubaker as the second coming. But my first exposure to Cap was Gruenwald, who was more character-centric (he focused a lot on Steve as a person: his hopes, his doubts, his hobbies, his follies) whereas Brubaker was more plot-driven. For example I donít think Brubaker referenced Steve hobbies (like the fact that Steve is an artist) once in any of his work on Cap. Not once. Iím not saying Brubaker was bad, heís a great writer, but different. I just personally tend to prefer character-driven writers, thatís just my personal preference. So that early impression from Gruenwald and then Waid set my gold standards for Cap.

    Ironically, though, I love the Madbomb story for the political undertones, so I guess itís one example where I did value plot over characterization/individualization.
    I came to Gruenwald et al much later but I must say his arc of the ďCaptainĒ was outstanding, right in line with Englehartís Secret Empire. And Waidís work is always a must.

    I find Steve Rogers as an immigrant living during the Depression raised by his mother incredibly satisfying. Whereas Kirbyís gladhanding his ancestors as revolutionary war combatants felt too contrived. I wish Remender had avoided the abusive alcoholic father story for something else, perhaps a union organizer who is victim to corporate union busting shenanigans. But thatís me.

    Iíll admit I truly enjoyed Brubakerís take, found his characterization spot on, without the need to overstuff Steveís line with one off attempts at a private life. Iíve never seen that approach work well despite valiant efforts. The artist stuff is a weird angle given that Steveís adult life has been defined solely by war, from 18 onward. Letís face it most of those WW2 survivors would have access to the gi bill and developed careers only after the war.

  15. #345
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Did I miss the Chadwick reference?

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