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  1. #31
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought of Clinton (god I love Waid on Cap, all of his Cap series) but it didn't fit the 3 + 1 narrative I was going for, since Clinton started out the arc kicking Steve out of the country for the crime he didn't commit (just dawned on me that poor Steve gets framed a lot, doesn't he?) and ended with Clinton apologizing and asking to play with the shield once all was cleared up, so Cap never openly rebelled against Clinton other than trying to clear his name, but Clinton didn't make Cap a part of his cabinet either, the way Obama did. Still a neat story though, it's a good one! I might just make a thread covering it, since that first Waid series is often overlooked.
    Thanks for the response, capandkirby. It is greatly appreciated.

    Wow! Never thought anything Waid wrote could ever be overlooked, but I'm still looking forward to that new thread. Hopefully, you'll make that thread here on the CBR Forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I'll never figure out why they disrupted Waid's tenure on Cap between that first series and Cap vol. 3 with that Liefeld/Loeb run (which I try to pretend doesn't exist).
    I know, right? It seems Waid has to deal with "behind-the-scenes politics" on a regular basis.

    IIRC, Waid's epic origin for the Red Skull (Captain America, Vol.3 #14) lost much of its impact because of "editorial interference".
    Last edited by K7P5V; 01-08-2020 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Added more words.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Exactly. Thank you.

    And, Mr. Johnson, just calling out the unfair bias as I see it. This is far from the first time your website has character bashed this particular character, and yet, so many other characters, who are written as committing some pretty heinous atrocities, get a complete free pass. How weird. One might come to the conclusion that your website has an agenda. Or at the very least a very obvious cognitive bias.
    What are you talking about?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    A bit of a troll:

    That's the one...

  4. #34
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    How CBR covered the Deadpool issue...

    Excerpt:



    https://www.cbr.com/deadpool-captain...ampaign=CBR-TW

    Look at that. They did it WITHOUT character bashing. They were respectful of both characters. Who knew articles could be written this way (and thus this well)?! Wouldn't know it by Bleeding Cool. Good job, CBR, that's why I, as a Cap fan, would recommend you over other sites.
    And I completely agree with that. Deadpool feels betrayed by Steve because of the events in Uncanny Avengers and Secret Empire, irrational or not. Steve wants what's best for Wade but isn't going to just let him run around and do whatever he wants. It's an interesting relationship. More than just Wade "getting under his skin like every other hero" in the Marvel universe.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    And I completely agree with that. Deadpool feels betrayed by Steve because of the events in Uncanny Avengers and Secret Empire, irrational or not. Steve wants what's best for Wade but isn't going to just let him run around and do whatever he wants. It's an interesting relationship. More than just Wade "getting under his skin like every other hero" in the Marvel universe.
    Agreed that Steve wouldn't hold any sort of lingering resentment against Wade for being hurt and betrayed and would still continue to treat him with respect (and a touch of fondness), particularly considering that Steve, himself, is now so full of self-loathing, it would be hypocritical of him to be mad at Wade for it.




    I mean, the biggest heartbreaking thing here isn't the deterioration of Steve and Wade's relationship, but rather how much Steve hates himself (which, as you pointed out, and I agree, is definitely completely irrational, he had no control over what Red Skull used Kobik to do, Steve's as much a victim here as anybody). Still having to confront what an evil doppelganger that possessed none of your morals had done in your steed would be soul crushing, thus I'm glad several books are exploring it. I may not have liked Secret Empire as it was happening, but it did happen, and it shouldn't be swept under the rug, it does need to be dealt with. Like you I have no problem with Wade AND Steve grappling with various levels of PTSD from the experience and that pouring into their present interaction with each other. It does make for interesting storytelling. Total, 100% agreement, there. Especially as we keep getting confirmation that Steve is not touched by evil, that he's his usual awesome self...



    I mean, I'm a huge fan of Waid's Steve, in my opinion his Steve Rogers voice is unparalleled by any Cap writer still living (other than maybe Roger Stern), but even I admit that when Waid took over the Cap title following Secret Empire the fact that Secret Empire wasn't addressed was this giant elephant in the room that tainted Waid's otherwise stellar mini.

    My biggest gripe is how Bleeding Cool covered the Deadpool issue, which was 100% biased because the author is still seemingly harboring resentment at Steve for AvX, which happened 8 years ago and was only written because of the Fox movie rights issue and Ike Perlmutter being a dick. It was unfortunate that Steve had the unlucky placement of being the Avengers chair at the time when the Avengers went into conflict with the X-Men. Particularly as the more petty among the comic community seemingly have issues letting their anger at fictional characters go (as if said fictional character had any agency in how they were utilized). And I know the author of the Deadpool coverage was still harboring resentment for AvX because he brought AvX up. In an article. About a preview. For the current Deadpool run (did I mention AvX is 8 years old?!).

    I am a consumer, Bleeding Cool is supplying the service, it is their job to convince me, the consumer, that their website adds value to my experience as a comic reader/consumer. Continuously going after my favorite character and trying to paint him in the worst possible light is not the way to do that, especially when there is all of this nuance to the current relationship between Wade and Steve (and those monsters were eating/killing people, as Deadpool, who is trying to set up his island as a tourist attraction, mentioned himself. Steve was not AT ALL being irrational about the whole thing, not in the slightest, not even by the wildest stretch of the imagination and he approached Wade in sincerity).

    Anyway, thank you for mentioning Cap had a cameo in that Deadpool issue. I agree with you, totally, that Wade and Steve have an interesting dynamic right now. I have no beef with Cap having a cameo in that comic. My CBS owner let me thumb through the issue when I went to pick up my pulls this week (I told him about all the hoopla surrounding it), so I did read it. My ire is 100% at Bleeding Cool for how they covered it and how they tried to make it something it was not.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-10-2020 at 10:23 AM.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    Thanks for the response, capandkirby. It is greatly appreciated.

    Wow! Never thought anything Waid wrote could ever be overlooked, but I'm still looking forward to that new thread. Hopefully, you'll make that thread here on the CBR Forums.

    I know, right? It seems Waid has to deal with "behind-the-scenes politics" on a regular basis.

    IIRC, Waid's epic origin for the Red Skull (Captain America, Vol.3 #14) lost much of its impact because of "editorial interference".

    You got it! Here, we go, Steve's relationship with Bill Clinton, courtesy of Mark Waid's "Man Without a Country" arc from his first foray into writing our guy.

    In truth, Steve's relationship with Clinton started off as pretty rocky, all things being told, Steve is (falsely) accused of betraying state secrets to the enemy:




  7. #37
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    You got it! Here, we go, Steve's relationship with Bill Clinton, courtesy of Mark Waid's "Man Without a Country" arc from his first foray into writing our guy.

    In truth, Steve's relationship with Clinton started off as pretty rocky, all things being told, Steve is (falsely) accused of betraying state secrets to the enemy
    But all is, eventually, cleared up and Steve and Clinton part on fairly good terms:





    So there we have it, the president Steve didn't really rebel against the way he did Nixon, Reagan and Bush, but didn't work for, either, the way he did Obama, in that Obama actually made Steve a part of his cabinet.

    ...What's the story behind Cap vol. 3, #14? I don't think I've heard that before. I mean I know about the recent controversy with the Incoming page/essay, but I didn't know that Waid had been censored during Cap vol. 3. Poor guy. Jesus.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-10-2020 at 01:04 PM.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Erik Larsen's Captain America: The End has been postponed three weeks. Kinda saw this one coming, Larsen mentioned last week on Twitter that he had, only then, turned the pages over to the colorist.

    Anyway, here's the source: https://www.newsarama.com/48563-capt...d-3-weeks.html

    And here's the synopsis for the issue:

    CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE END #1
    ERIK LARSEN (W) • ERIK LARSEN (A) • Cover by RAHZZAH
    Variant cover by ERIK LARSEN
    THE FINAL CAPTAIN AMERICA STORY!
    Steve Rogers fights for survival in a post-apocalyptic wasteland populated by hordes of Red Skulls! Legendary writer/artist Erik Larsen (SPIDER-MAN, WOLVERINE, NOVA) returns to Marvel for an oversized last tale of Simon & Kirby’s American Hero!
    40 PGS./ONE SHOT/Rated T+ …$4.99

  9. #39
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Article on Steve's role in the upcoming Outlawed: https://screenrant.com/captain-ameri...rvel-outlawed/

    Excerpt:

    The official preview of Outlawed shows several heroes testifying before the government in regards to the incident in question, and whether or not they think regulation of teenage superheroes should be put into place. The heroes are both young and old, including Steve Rogers himself. He tells the court that he wouldn't be standing there if he hadn't been given a chance when he was a teenager. Kids like him were young, fearless, and willing to lay down their lives for freedom by enlisting to fight World War II. They were called the Greatest Generation, and can't see how the teen heroes of today are any different. Considering his position in Civil War, it's not hard to believe that Rogers would be on the side of personal liberties over national security.

  10. #40
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    ...What's the story behind Cap vol. 3, #14? I don't think I've heard that before. I mean I know about the recent controversy with the Incoming page/essay, but I didn't know that Waid had been censored during Cap vol. 3. Poor guy. Jesus.
    Honestly, I remember reading this somewhere (probably Wizard Magazine, but I'm not sure). This rather "quiet" controversy started when Waid went all-out and wrote his epic. After reading it, editorial then got skittish and severely toned down the whole thing. Obviously, Waid wasn't amused. So, basically that's the gist of it (IIRC).

    Also, thanks for the Clinton/Cap pages, capandkirby. It is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by K7P5V; 01-10-2020 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Forgot to add my thanks.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    Honestly, I remember reading this somewhere (probably Wizard Magazine, but I'm not sure). This rather "quiet" controversy started when Waid went all-out and wrote his epic. After reading it, editorial then got skittish and severely toned down the whole thing. Obviously, Waid wasn't amused. So, basically that's the gist of it (IIRC).
    Wow. They keep doing that to him. Makes me really, really, REALLY want to read the unedited version. I bet it would be awesome.

    I know Waid is a bit of a firecracker, in that he speaks his mind. In fact, it spawned that totally ridiculous and, imo, bogus lawsuit recently (whatever came of that, I wonder) but I gotta love him for it. I mean, he's not wrong and he was the first to stand up to that particular group (who shall remain nameless), it was another year or so before other big names in the industry joined him in standing up to them. I follow Gail Simon on Twitter. I see how that group, the one Waid denounced, attacks her. It's disgusting. Though Gail does hold her own, I gotta say. It's very entertaining to watch her send them back to whatever rock they crawled out of with their tails between their legs.

    One of these days maybe they'll let Waid write Cap again, and they will let him just go off, unrestricted. I mean, they let Coates do it, a little bit...




    So something tells me that Waid, with free-reign, would also be a sight to behold.

    Also, thank you for letting me know. Interesting. I want to read more about that, now.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-10-2020 at 05:00 PM.

  12. #42
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Wow. They keep doing that to him. Makes me really, really, REALLY want to read the unedited version. I bet it would be awesome.

    I know Waid is a bit of a firecracker, in that he speaks his mind. In fact, it spawned that totally ridiculous and, imo, bogus lawsuit recently (whatever came of that, I wonder) but I gotta love him for it. I mean, he's not wrong and he was the first to stand up to that particular group (who shall remain nameless), it was another year or so before other big names in the industry joined him in standing up to them. I follow Gail Simon on Twitter. I see how that group, the one Waid denounced, attacks her. It's disgusting. Though Gail does hold her own, I gotta say. It's very entertaining to watch her send them back to whatever rock they crawled out of with their tails between their legs.

    One of these days maybe they'll let Waid write Cap again, and they will let him just go off, unrestricted. I mean, they let Coates do it, a little bit...




    So something tells me that Waid, with free-reign, would also be a sight to behold.

    Also, thank you for letting me know. Interesting. I want to read more about that, now.
    ...Did White Tiger just vaporize a dude?

  13. #43
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    ...Did White Tiger just vaporize a dude?
    Eh, probably just stunned him. Considering that one of the current villains is Scourge, who achieves his villain status because he does murder people (albeit all his victims are, themselves, villains) I don't think Coates would have Cap's side doing it, too.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    Honestly, I remember reading this somewhere (probably Wizard Magazine, but I'm not sure). This rather "quiet" controversy started when Waid went all-out and wrote his epic. After reading it, editorial then got skittish and severely toned down the whole thing. Obviously, Waid wasn't amused. So, basically that's the gist of it (IIRC).

    Also, thanks for the Clinton/Cap pages, capandkirby. It is greatly appreciated.
    a little more info here: https://www.cbr.com/comic-book-urban...s-revealed-86/

  15. #45
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    Very helpful. Thanks, Hypestyle.

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