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  1. #76
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I’ve been rereading through Waid’s stuff, and it’s just so good. He’s written a lot of my favorite stories for other characters, so it is no surprise how much he nails Steve.
    Isn't he great? I love him on Cap. Every single time he's written the character he's done such a superb job with him. Operation Rebirth. Cap vol. 3. Sentinel of Liberty. Man Out of Time. Cap 695 to 700. All good.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post

    All this said, Steve in today's Avengers issue was incredible and it made me love him all the more. God I hope what looks like is going to happen, happens. Steve raising an all-powerful baby girl is an incredible thought. 100% behind new dad!Steve (who has to balance being Cap and taking care of a baby) as a plot for the next Cap run. We got a taste of it in Remenders run, but seeing it in more detail, and without the highly depressive undertones, would be awesome.
    Steve is one of the comics characters that I think being a parent would work, imo. (For example, making Superman a dad was such a natural next step that worked.) It doesn't work for every character, but he has that personality, vibe, and story surrounding him where it works. The ideas in Remender's run were good, even if it did go off the rails depressive, as you said. Hell, even going back, he had that kind of thing with Bucky originally, even if canon seems to have moved away from that direction.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    Steve is one of the comics characters that I think being a parent would work, imo. (For example, making Superman a dad was such a natural next step that worked.) It doesn't work for every character, but he has that personality, vibe, and story surrounding him where it works. The ideas in Remender's run were good, even if it did go off the rails depressive, as you said. Hell, even going back, he had that kind of thing with Bucky originally, even if canon seems to have moved away from that direction.
    Right? I see Steve as a defacto parent to Bucky, too (which is why I could never get behind the Steve/Bucky ship that took over the internet when the MCU happened). And they could do this story with a completely different vibe than Remenders run, which was pretty much, lets-make-Steve-as-depressed-as-remotely-possible. Something more heartwarming and fun. i.e. more Three Men and a Baby, less A&E drama of the month. There aren't too many good fathers in the Marvel Universe (I love you, Luke Cage, you da man, thank you for being the exception) and there are a ton of crappy ones (Howard Stark, Odin, Joseph Rogers, Brian Banner, I could go on) so a run with Steve tackling the issues of taking care of a baby, an all-powerful baby no less, while also juggling being Captain America and an Avenger would be awesome.

    I think one of the reasons Gruenwald's Cap run is so beloved is because he did show Steve struggling with real-life issues (paying his bills, holding a job, struggling to meet deadlines, navigating romantic relationships with being Cap, which is what ultimately drove he and Bernie apart), he humanized Cap, and gave him a vulnerability that we really haven't seen since. A storyline like this would, as you said, be a natural progression and could be a lot of fun, too. Steve is the perfect character for it, because he, like Luke, would make an awesome dad.

  4. #79
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Man did these panels elicit feelings. I don't think I've ever 'awwwwww'-ed so quickly or efficiently at a comic before...




  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Today's Cap: God I hate that they brought Peggy back in this book. That whole plot thread is really starting to dampen my enjoyment of this run. Not only that but I hate that they're rushing it, because it makes it even more disjointed. Because when you're rushing to get to the end, to the point where you completely cut issues that were listed in the solicits (which they did, the solicits described an issue where Bobbi and Steve teamed up and an issue where Jess and Steve teamed up, and neither of those happened) wasting time to focus on whatever drama surrounds Peggy's return instead of focusing on the main point of this book, which is supposed to be Steve restoring the public's faith in Captain America (and his own faith in himself, I mean, however wrong it is to blame himself, his self-esteem took a hit) seems gratuitous and unnecessary.

    Still, today's Cap issue wasn't entirely without merit. Steve's mad skillz at giving speeches had a chance to shine once more, so that was neat. And I love seeing Steve interact with the Daughters.

    All this said, Steve in today's Avengers issue was incredible and it made me love him all the more. God I hope what looks like is going to happen, happens. Steve raising an all-powerful baby girl is an incredible thought. 100% behind new dad!Steve (who has to balance being Cap and taking care of a baby) as a plot for the next Cap run. We got a taste of it in Remenders run, but seeing it in more detail, and without the highly depressive undertones, would be awesome.
    Okay, finally read the issue.

    I have to agree with you on the Peggy arc. As of this issue, with certain character choices, that plotline officially like something pulled out of a CW show that makes none of the characters look particularly good. Sharon for keeping the secret, Peggy for demanding she keep it a secret, and Steve for the nonsense he pulled this issue. It's also weird, because tonally it doesn't feel tonally consistent with the first part of Coates' run. Of course, I'm half-convinced that the Peggy plotline in editorially mandated, as opposed to anything Coates wanted, which is why he's struggling to fit it in with the "Steve becomes Cap again" and "Steve fights alongside the Daughters of Liberty" threads. You can remove the Peggy stuff...and those plotlines aren't really affected.

    I also agree on the good. I definitely enjoyed Steve being a leader and showing off why he's Captain America. I would like to see more of this in the future.

    I would also kill for a Daughters of Liberty book sometime in the future. I think that would be fun.

  6. #81
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    Okay, finally read the issue.

    I have to agree with you on the Peggy arc. As of this issue, with certain character choices, that plotline officially like something pulled out of a CW show that makes none of the characters look particularly good. Sharon for keeping the secret, Peggy for demanding she keep it a secret, and Steve for the nonsense he pulled this issue. It's also weird, because tonally it doesn't feel tonally consistent with the first part of Coates' run. Of course, I'm half-convinced that the Peggy plotline in editorially mandated, as opposed to anything Coates wanted, which is why he's struggling to fit it in with the "Steve becomes Cap again" and "Steve fights alongside the Daughters of Liberty" threads. You can remove the Peggy stuff...and those plotlines aren't really affected.

    I also agree on the good. I definitely enjoyed Steve being a leader and showing off why he's Captain America. I would like to see more of this in the future.

    I would also kill for a Daughters of Liberty book sometime in the future. I think that would be fun.
    Yes. On all points. I was irked that Steve did what he did at the end of the issue, too. And yes, I'm also irked at Sharon, but moreso at Peggy, because Peggy keeps putting her in a tight spot, her 'aunt' or her lover. And you're right, the second half of this run doesn't feel at all like the first half and it is really starting to annoy.

    And I know for a fact that SOMETHING is going on here.

    Case in point, what the solicits said Cap #15 was going be...



    And what we actually got for Cap #15 (which was the solicit for Cap #16)...



    ...they skipped an issue, rushed this arc. They did it earlier, too. There was also a Steve and Bobbie team-up issue solicited that we never saw come to fruition.

    I don't know why they're doing this, but it sucks. It's ruining my enjoyment of the run, which is a shame, because I love Coates on Steve and the first part of this run was so great. But now the arc is feeling rushed and it's lost focus and detail. Like I said, the theme here was supposed to be Steve trying to restore the faith in Captain America following Secret Empire. The Peggy thing is completely gratuitous. No comic Cap fan I've conversed with wants to see Steve and Peggy together. None.

    And now we get news that two new artists are coming in for Cap #19 (which is NEXT MONTH'S ISSUE) who will share credits with Masters. Which means they are making last minute changes to Cap #19 and Masters was unavailable to do them, so they had to bring in other artists.

    And next month is the issue Steve confronts Peggy.

    Needless to say, this is not cool. If they are changing things to match the MCU I will be livid. It's my biggest fear, here. It's disrespectful to Sharon, it's disrespectful to Steve and it doesn't fit into anything. Plus its creating shoddy storytelling. Moreover it's all for nothing, because MCU fans do not translate to comic fans, for the most part. I talked with the owner of the CBS I go to once, he claims he hasn't seen a difference in sales AT ALL since the MCU. So what's the point.

    But I may be biased, so there's that. I haven't like Peggy as a character since the House of M tie-in where she divorced Steve for giving up the mantle to follow his life long dream to become an astronaut. I don't want to see Steve with her romantically. I don't want to see her as a part of Cap squad. I liked her in the MCU because I considered the MCU a separate Earth designation from the 616 and didn't hold anything from the comics against her. But comics!Peggy has never given me a reason to warm up to her. Especially considering how old!Peggy was rude to Rachel during Gruenwald's run (when she was working for the Avengers). No comic portrayal of Peggy has given me, as a consumer, any reason to like the character or to care about why she's insisting on keeping secrets from Steve.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-29-2020 at 01:16 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Yes. On all points. I was irked that Steve did what he did at the end of the issue, too. And yes, I'm also irked at Sharon, but moreso at Peggy, because Peggy keeps putting her in a tight spot, her 'aunt' or her lover. And you're right, the second half of this run doesn't feel at all like the first half and it is really starting to annoy.

    And I know for a fact that SOMETHING is going on here.

    Case in point, what the solicits said Cap #15 was going be...



    And what we actually got for Cap #15 (which was the solicit for Cap #16)...



    ...they skipped an issue, rushed this arc. They did it earlier, too. There was also a Steve and Bobbie team-up issue solicited that we never saw come to fruition.

    I don't know why they're doing this, but it sucks. It's ruining my enjoyment of the run, which is a shame, because I love Coates on Steve and the first part of this run was so great. But now the arc is feeling rushed and it's lost focus and detail. Like I said, the theme here was supposed to be Steve trying to restore the faith in Captain America following Secret Empire. The Peggy thing is completely gratuitous. No comic Cap fan I've conversed with wants to see Steve and Peggy together. None.

    And now we get news that two new artists are coming in for Cap #19 (which is NEXT MONTH'S ISSUE) who will share credits with Masters. Which means they are making last minute changes to Cap #19 and Masters was unavailable to do them, so they had to bring in other artists.

    And next month is the issue Steve confronts Peggy.

    Needless to say, this is not cool. If they are changing things to match the MCU I will be livid. It's my biggest fear, here. It's disrespectful to Sharon, it's disrespectful to Steve and it doesn't fit into anything. Plus its creating shoddy storytelling. Moreover it's all for nothing, because MCU fans do not translate to comic fans, for the most part. I talked with the owner of the CBS I go to once, he claims he hasn't seen a difference in sales AT ALL since the MCU. So what's the point.

    But I may be biased, so there's that. I haven't like Peggy as a character since the House of M tie-in where she divorced Steve for giving up the mantle to follow his life long dream to become an astronaut. I don't want to see Steve with her romantically. I don't want to see her as a part of Cap squad. I liked her in the MCU because I considered the MCU a separate Earth designation from the 616 and didn't hold anything from the comics against her. But comics!Peggy has never given me a reason to warm up to her. Especially considering how old!Peggy was rude to Rachel during Gruenwald's run (when she was working for the Avengers). No comic portrayal of Peggy has given me, as a consumer, any reason to like the character or to care about why she's insisting on keeping secrets from Steve.
    I know solicitations don't mean much, but it was noticeable that the team-ups did not happen. It was very weird going into one issue expecting something, and then getting something else. There's a conspiratorial side of me that's wondering if whatever is going on with solicitations and artists shifts also explains why the solicitations for the March/April issues are so vague. There's very little inkling to whatever the plot actually is, and everyone's best guess is that it's leading to a writer change. Which makes sense!

    As for the Peggy inclusion, I'm very meh. I hate when MCU synergy comes about in such a way that completely ignores decades-long established personalities and relationships. Peggy, in the comics, has always felt like sort of a footnote to me. She existed, sure, and she did things with the Avengers and she and Steve had a relationship in the past. But in the grand scale, in terms of love interests, I'm not even sure if she ranks in the top 5. Brubaker, I feel, went out of his way to portray their relationship as not that deep, especially when he did the Codename: Bravo plotline. It hurts with believability in the sense that I can't buy Steve going from Sharon to her quite like that. At least, not without some significant time in-between without it feeling weird and honestly, strangely rebound-y. It's the opposite of what the MCU did with Steve/Peggy and Steve/Sharon. Based on how they wrote Steve/Peggy, it was hard to get buy-in with Steve/Sharon. Steve was in too deep with Peggy. Likewise, there's probably going to struggle with buying 616!Steve/Peggy because 616!Steve/Sharon have too much history there.

    If Coates' plan had been all along to bring back Peggy, likely to have a relationship with Steve, there's actually no sense in him putting Steve and Sharon together in the first place. You can make a solid argument they aren't romantically involved in Waid's run. Them breaking up in the aftermath of Secret Empire would make sense, especially considering the hell they went through, and what Captain Hydra did to Sharon. With how Coates was writing them up until Peggy's reveal, they honestly felt like a pretty stable couple working their way through a huge trauma, but nonetheless supporting each other. As such, their drama feels rather...manufactured.

    Also, I'm a little annoyed that the Peggy is reveal is being played for petty relationship drama and a wedge, which it really shouldn't be. The idea of her coming back in some form could be interesting in how it relates to Sharon because she would be Sharon's only living relative and was her hero. That's the aspect that's interesting to me, not the "hi, I'm having you lie to the person you love/have been living with for years/almost had a baby with/sort of had an adopted kid with, stop complaining about this." Really, guys? We couldn't do better than this?

  8. #83
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I know solicitations don't mean much, but it was noticeable that the team-ups did not happen. It was very weird going into one issue expecting something, and then getting something else. There's a conspiratorial side of me that's wondering if whatever is going on with solicitations and artists shifts also explains why the solicitations for the March/April issues are so vague. There's very little inkling to whatever the plot actually is, and everyone's best guess is that it's leading to a writer change. Which makes sense!

    As for the Peggy inclusion, I'm very meh. I hate when MCU synergy comes about in such a way that completely ignores decades-long established personalities and relationships. Peggy, in the comics, has always felt like sort of a footnote to me. She existed, sure, and she did things with the Avengers and she and Steve had a relationship in the past. But in the grand scale, in terms of love interests, I'm not even sure if she ranks in the top 5. Brubaker, I feel, went out of his way to portray their relationship as not that deep, especially when he did the Codename: Bravo plotline. It hurts with believability in the sense that I can't buy Steve going from Sharon to her quite like that. At least, not without some significant time in-between without it feeling weird and honestly, strangely rebound-y. It's the opposite of what the MCU did with Steve/Peggy and Steve/Sharon. Based on how they wrote Steve/Peggy, it was hard to get buy-in with Steve/Sharon. Steve was in too deep with Peggy. Likewise, there's probably going to struggle with buying 616!Steve/Peggy because 616!Steve/Sharon have too much history there.

    If Coates' plan had been all along to bring back Peggy, likely to have a relationship with Steve, there's actually no sense in him putting Steve and Sharon together in the first place. You can make a solid argument they aren't romantically involved in Waid's run. Them breaking up in the aftermath of Secret Empire would make sense, especially considering the hell they went through, and what Captain Hydra did to Sharon. With how Coates was writing them up until Peggy's reveal, they honestly felt like a pretty stable couple working their way through a huge trauma, but nonetheless supporting each other. As such, their drama feels rather...manufactured.

    Also, I'm a little annoyed that the Peggy is reveal is being played for petty relationship drama and a wedge, which it really shouldn't be. The idea of her coming back in some form could be interesting in how it relates to Sharon because she would be Sharon's only living relative and was her hero. That's the aspect that's interesting to me, not the "hi, I'm having you lie to the person you love/have been living with for years/almost had a baby with/sort of had an adopted kid with, stop complaining about this." Really, guys? We couldn't do better than this?
    Exactly. It is up to Marvel to sell Peggy and Peggy's reveal in this book and her importance to the story. It's up to Marvel to sell her as a character of interest. We, as consumers, or not in debt for total acceptance of any character or storyline. If they want us to care, they have to make us care through the storytelling. Usually that happens with backstory, with interactions between characters, with emotional resonance. Here's what I know about Peggy as it pertains to the 616, she and Steve had a fling during the war. There was a messy 1960's story wherein Steve came off the ice after only a decade and mistook Sharon for Peggy at first because initially they were sisters. That was retconned, thank you sliding timescale for your service, we Cap fans owe you one, because that story was kinda ugh. In the 80's, an elderly Peggy worked for the Avengers, Steve got her the job, and she was rude to Steve's then love interest, Rachel. During the House of M tie-in, wherein Steve never went into the ice, Steve and Peggy married, only to have Peggy divorce him a few years later because she was angry Steve gave up being Cap and angry that he supported mutant rights. Now, out of the blue, she shows up, young (with no explanation as to why) and the only real personality we've seen from her in this book thus far is that she's insisting her niece keep her presence a secret from her niece's long-time love. I'm sorry Marvel, but you have not endeared this character to me. Like at all. I think she's wrong for doing what she's been doing in regards to both Sharon and Steve. I have been given no reason to see otherwise. I don't even know who *this* Peggy is, she doesn't look the same as the Peggy we've seen before. She looks like MCU!Peggy, not comics!Peggy. You've given me no real meat for me to use to elicit sympathy/empathy for her position.

    That said... I admit, full-stop, that I could be worrying over nothing. Maybe I've got this all wrong. Maybe she's not there to be the love interest, or to be a major player in Cap squad. Maybe Marvel just wants an active Peggy in the 616 for other purposes, and they used the characters ties to Sharon and Cap to reintroduce her, and she'll move on to different places from here. Maybe that's not Peggy at all. Maybe it's Selene disguised as Peggy. Or maybe Alexa Lukin, because she's a sorceress, is playing mind-games. There are a thousand other scenarios this could be, and I'm self-aware enough about myself to know it's premature to get really upset about it just yet, even as I can't help it, lol. It's just her showing up in the comics, drawn as looking like Hayley Atwell, so soon after Endgame, that's messing with my head. And yes, I agree, having Peggy come back as an aunt and a long lost relative and not a mysterious shadow figure insisting people keep secrets would have definitely made her more endearing, if we, the audience, are, in fact, meant to be endeared. There's still hope that's not the case. If Coates is actually making gentle fun at the MCU by actually planning a 180 with this, and turning the Steve/Peggy plot on it's head, I am so 100% on-board for that it's not even funny.

    And it could be that Steve's next big relationship is not romantic at all, but familial. IE that of father to an adopted daughter. Single parent!Steve!
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-29-2020 at 03:47 PM.

  9. #84
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    Not thrilled with this John Walker reveal from the new Cap issue...

  10. #85
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Not thrilled with this John Walker reveal from the new Cap issue...
    spoilers:
    Is this indicating that Walker is the new Scourge?
    end of spoilers
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #86
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    I still maintain that it makes no sense for mcu synergy to bring Peggy back now. 2011? 2012? When her show was airing, in the lead up to Avengers Endgame? Maybe, but now that mcu Steve is over and done, something is missing here.

    Was that Rasputin in the bar with Peggy?

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    spoilers:
    Is this indicating that Walker is the new Scourge?
    end of spoilers
    wouldn't really fit with the upcoming place on War Machine's team.

  13. #88
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    It’s starting to feel a little juvenile having Steve check Sharon’s phone ....

    Agree the Peggy/Dryad part isn’t building to anything for me .... meh. Give me back the McNiven scene in Paris at her funeral. Covered a lot of ground in a few pages with emotion. I’d wish they’d have left her finale alone.

    Round and round we go with the art .... Masters isn’t doing it for me. You’d think someone would want an extended run drawing Cap. Guice must be available.

    I’m getting lost in Watchdogs, Selene, Taskmaster, Nukes, the Lukin family, Scourge, the Power Elite, Strucker, Rasputin, Thunderbolt.... still nothing on the Daughters, no deep dive into their origins, Walker’s role, not to mention Stevil’s abrupt ending. Lot of arcs to stick the landing.

    Bucky just up and disappeared.

    Did I mention the art ....

    So thankful for Alex Ross covers

    This is like a really good recipe, amazing ingredients, great chief, and just seems like the cake isn’t as moist as it aught to be. Need a few cups of coffee to swill it down.
    Last edited by tliscord; 01-30-2020 at 07:49 AM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    spoilers:
    Is this indicating that Walker is the new Scourge?
    end of spoilers
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    wouldn't really fit with the upcoming place on War Machine's team.
    This is my issue with writers just doing whatever and not respecting what has come before. Walker has evolved quite a bit since he first popped up...now it is just a nonsensical heel turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by IvanSkavisnky View Post
    I still maintain that it makes no sense for mcu synergy to bring Peggy back now. 2011? 2012? When her show was airing, in the lead up to Avengers Endgame? Maybe, but now that mcu Steve is over and done, something is missing here.

    Was that Rasputin in the bar with Peggy?
    I think a book for her during the TV series set after WW2 would have been interesting. Bring back appearances of the characters from that era. How would Peggy have reacted to Naslund and Mace wearing Steve's costume?

  15. #90
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Captain America: The End preview...




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