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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    c'mon tha ton E for extinction Scott was living with Emma and wasn't loving Jean anymore, that is why he was killed. The story was written by a Morrison's collaborator
    the fact that you try to find an excuse for bad treatment seems really laughable.

  2. #182
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LP22 View Post
    the fact that you try to find an excuse for bad treatment seems really laughable.
    it isn't a excuse, it is a fact. at least Emma died too

  3. #183
    Sad & Brazilian PrezValentine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I haven't read it in a while but what was he angry about then? All I remember is he had some fallout with the Professor and Jean supported him and so did Logan and that's why Logan and Jean became Xavier's natural successors.
    Scott was against the idea of Xavier and the Avengers basically forming an "acceptable" version of the Illuminati, to make sure the Super Hero Registration Act wouldn't come to pass, but the government would still trust the heroes. He thought it was wrong to give so much power to a small group of people and Jean went along with it, apparently because she thought what happened during Dark Phoenix Saga was enough to justify Charles, Captain America and Iron Man pulling the strings on all the heroes. So she dumped him.
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    it isn't a excuse, it is a fact. at least Emma died too
    you hate emma?

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by LP22 View Post
    Yeah that was disgusting, there was also x-men the end and x-men forever where you could see clarmont is still salty about scott and Jean getting back together and being petty about something that happened in 1986 for God's sake!!!

    And don't forget that E if for extinction secret wars mini series where Jean killed scott and later confessed her love for wolverine or the even more disgusting what if avengers vs x-men where wolverine and Jean go to the dawn of time and kiss,seriously you can see how much writers hate Scott in outside canon comics and prefer Jean with Logan and you can see that happening in the main line with Jean and Logan who are clearly in a physical relationship.
    That Jean and Logan idea actually comes from Claremont. He said his idea was that because Wolverine's healing factor makes him essentially immortal and Jean would always resurrect, they will be the last two people alive in this world and be together till the very end. And then they would consummate their love and that would cause a new big bang and create the new universe.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrezValentine View Post
    Scott was against the idea of Xavier and the Avengers basically forming an "acceptable" version of the Illuminati, to make sure the Super Hero Registration Act wouldn't come to pass, but the government would still trust the heroes. He thought it was wrong to give so much power to a small group of people and Jean went along with it, apparently because she thought what happened during Dark Phoenix Saga was enough to justify Charles, Captain America and Iron Man pulling the strings on all the heroes. So she dumped him.
    Thank you! Personally I think Scott was overreacting so I don't get his issue with what Charles and Jean did. I've read articles about how even in Claremont's run it seemed like Wolverine was being primed as Xavier's natural successor rather than Cyclops so I don't think it's entirely OOC.

  7. #187
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amacent View Post
    I apologize for continuing the Wolverine discussion in this thread. It might seem like I hate him but he's actually a favorite of mine.
    To change the subject, here's a few favorite panels of mine featuring Scott and Jean.

    Attachment 97752
    Attachment 97753
    Attachment 97754
    That's fine, just wanted to move onto more positive things. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem like an easy accomplishment for this particular appreciation thread.

    In terms of the current era, I really would have liked to have seen more of their reunion other than the end of Rosenberg's run. Considering how they seem to be now, it feels like it would be/have been important.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 06-20-2020 at 06:39 PM.
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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Thank you! Personally I think Scott was overreacting so I don't get his issue with what Charles and Jean did. I've read articles about how even in Claremont's run it seemed like Wolverine was being primed as Xavier's natural successor rather than Cyclops so I don't think it's entirely OOC.

    How? leaving the world to be policed by a certain group of super powered people is not a good solution and it's the whole reason World war hulk and the secret wars happened. He was perfectly in line to be mad about that. And claremont changed his mind about Logan and Jean out of spite. Not because it was something he naturally wanted. Can we stop deraling into more talk about how logan and jean are great for each other in the jott thread? They have their own thread for that.

    Responding to a comment is one thing, but to keep going on about the other couple is another.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neocide View Post
    How? leaving the world to be policed by a certain group of super powered people is not a good solution and it's the whole reason World war hulk and the secret wars happened. He was perfectly in line to be mad about that. And claremont changed his mind about Logan and Jean out of spite. Not because it was something he naturally wanted. Can we stop deraling into more talk about how logan and jean are great for each other in the jott thread? They have their own thread for that.

    Responding to a comment is one thing, but to keep going on about the other couple is another.
    You need to calm down. LP22 was talking about how Claremont had issues with Scott/Jean so he wanted Logan in the mix and then he talked about that AvX story and I just told him that they are connected because Claremont envisioned an ending like that.

    And because I don't agree with Scott on the situation, that makes me a hater of him? Particularly when another user was kind enough to remind me about the context of that issue. Anyway to answer you, I don't have any issue with Charles' decision because World War Hulk only occurred because they didn't succeed in landing Hulk on a barren and unoccupied planet. As for Secret Wars, that was always going to happen anyway and the only reason the MU survived that fallout was because of the Illuminati. Frankly, I think Scott was just jealous that he wasn't the one representing mutantkind there and I think that was even hinted at or said by another character.

  10. #190
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    I'm perfectly calm

    I wasn't calling you a hater, I was asking how was he overreacting to something that most people would react to knowing a group a people want to have power over the entire world's outcome.

    As far as Scott being jealous he's not representing mutantkind? I'd say that's more up to opinion,as even in 616 he didn't want that role, so I don't see why he'd be jealous of it here.With two people he admires and respects, because if he did, I don't see him still living with the X-men at all.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neocide View Post
    I'm perfectly calm

    I wasn't calling you a hater, I was asking how was he overreacting to something that most people would react to knowing a group a people want to have power over the entire world's outcome.

    As far as Scott being jealous he's not representing mutantkind? I'd say that's more up to opinion,as even in 616 he didn't want that role, so I don't see why he'd be jealous of it here.With two people he admires and respects, because if he did, I don't see him still living with the X-men at all.
    Well you were very rude in your response to me so you frankly sounded angry. But that's besides the point.

    It's really not that different from world leaders today anyway. How much power does the average citizen have when it's presidents and prime ministers and their cabinets that are in full control and know plenty of things about world security that the average person will never know or even imagine?

    If he didn't want it in the 616 universe, he would have stopped being the leader of the X-Men and left for good after both of Jean's deaths. He always comes back though and he willingly took upon the mantle of leading mutants after M-Day. Nevermind that Xavier was there, or Storm or Magneto. And even after AvX, he still couldn't stop despite being a terrorist and a murderer. In my opinion it's very clear that he was power hungry and couldn't give up the power (that's exactly what he did with the Phoenix Force) so perhaps the Scott in this timeline wasn't that far off from the 616 one. I can't see why he would be so angry when Xavier was doing exactly what he's always done like with the Z'Nox invasion. It really does seem like his bigger issue was that he didn't have a seat at the table.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    I used to be a hardcore Jott shipper but Scott's character has been ruined to me for years now. I hope the MCU can restore my love for them as a couple because nothing in the comics can at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Honestly, I never thought I would say this but the FoX-Men films may have turned me into a Jean/Logan shipper. Either that or the comics and how Scott treated Jean might have done that all by itself. Reading the original Claremont run, I'm realizing he was never very good to her even back then. At least Logan's never been like that with her. And frankly he's way more popular so Jean's position is elevated amongst general audiences if she's connected with him.

    The X-Factor days are the only times I like Scott and Jean together now under Louise Simonson. She wrote the definitive Jott.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Only amongst a special breed of X-Fans. It's interesting how many fandoms both the character of Cyclops and his fandom have alienated over the years, including Jean's. I've seen some hardcore Jott shippers, myself included, give up entirely after all the disrespect we received from the Wrongclops supporters.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    My point is that I used to be a major Jott fan but the attitudes of the writers who were all extremely anti-Jott and never made an effort to hide it PLUS the fandom itself killed my love for the couple. I've said this before a few pages back but I'll need a major revamping of the current direction before I feel at peace with this couple again and I don't see that anytime soon especially under Hickman's pen since he was a Scemma fan. The MCU should sort all this drivel out and send Hickman packing.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Part of the issue is that all the problems they had were just glossed over. There was no real discussion between Scott and Jean over what went wrong and any underlying issues they may still have (particularly from Jean because Scott doesn't have much to complain about). And part of the problem for that is that Hickman isn't into character work and he's sidelined Jean as Scott's stay-at-home-wife and she has no other role beyond that.

    More like brainwashed Stepford Wives than happy imo.



    Thank you!
    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Thank you! Personally I think Scott was overreacting so I don't get his issue with what Charles and Jean did. I've read articles about how even in Claremont's run it seemed like Wolverine was being primed as Xavier's natural successor rather than Cyclops so I don't think it's entirely OOC.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    You need to calm down. LP22 was talking about how Claremont had issues with Scott/Jean so he wanted Logan in the mix and then he talked about that AvX story and I just told him that they are connected because Claremont envisioned an ending like that.

    And because I don't agree with Scott on the situation, that makes me a hater of him? Particularly when another user was kind enough to remind me about the context of that issue. Anyway to answer you, I don't have any issue with Charles' decision because World War Hulk only occurred because they didn't succeed in landing Hulk on a barren and unoccupied planet. As for Secret Wars, that was always going to happen anyway and the only reason the MU survived that fallout was because of the Illuminati. Frankly, I think
    Scott was just jealous that he wasn't the one representing mutantkind there and I think that was even hinted at or said by another character.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Well you were very rude in your response to me so you frankly sounded angry. But that's besides the point.

    It's really not that different from world leaders today anyway. How much power does the average citizen have when it's presidents and prime ministers and their cabinets that are in full control and know plenty of things about world security that the average person will never know or even imagine?

    If he didn't want it in the 616 universe, he would have stopped being the leader of the X-Men and left for good after both of Jean's deaths. He always comes back though and he willingly took upon the mantle of leading mutants after M-Day. Nevermind that Xavier was there, or Storm or Magneto. And even after AvX, he still couldn't stop despite
    being a terrorist and a murderer. In my opinion it's very clear that he was power hungry and couldn't give up the power (that's exactly what he did with the Phoenix Force) so perhaps the Scott in this timeline wasn't that far off from the 616 one. I can't see why he would be so angry when Xavier was doing exactly what he's always done like with the Z'Nox invasion. It really does seem like his bigger issue was that he didn't have a seat at the table.
    Just going to leave this here...
    Last edited by SpiderClops; 06-21-2020 at 01:11 AM.

  13. #193
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Well you were very rude in your response to me so you frankly sounded angry. But that's besides the point.

    It's really not that different from world leaders today anyway. How much power does the average citizen have when it's presidents and prime ministers and their cabinets that are in full control and know plenty of things about world security that the average person will never know or even imagine?

    If he didn't want it in the 616 universe, he would have stopped being the leader of the X-Men and left for good after both of Jean's deaths. He always comes back though and he willingly took upon the mantle of leading mutants after M-Day. Nevermind that Xavier was there, or Storm or Magneto. And even after AvX, he still couldn't stop despite being a terrorist and a murderer. In my opinion it's very clear that he was power hungry and couldn't give up the power (that's exactly what he did with the Phoenix Force) so perhaps the Scott in this timeline wasn't that far off from the 616 one. I can't see why he would be so angry when Xavier was doing exactly what he's always done like with the Z'Nox invasion. It really does seem like his bigger issue was that he didn't have a seat at the table.
    At the time Storm was not an X-Character, but under the purview of the Black Panther writer. She was unavailable due to an editorial mistake - she SHOULD have been promptly put back into the X-Office after decimation, or M-Day, but she wasn't.

    Xavier had lost legitimacy due to a number of his dark secrets coming out, plus after M-Day he was missing and depowered.

    Plus, wasn't Magneto also missing for a while after M-Day as well?

    Scott didn't assume control due to being power hungry, but because there was literally no one else with any real weight as a leader to be able to do so. Editors and writers had, by a combination of choice and accident (in Storm's case), cleared the table of anyone else who could take up the role. And this is coming from someone who thinks Scott is better suited as a team leader than a societal one.

    But rehashing M-Day through AvX isn't what this thread is for - this is an appreciation thread for Scott and Jean's relationship. If you aren't able to do that, then why are you here?
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    Just going to leave this here...
    So let's address all of this.

    This is a Jott thread so I think I have the right to explain why I used to be a fan and also why I am no longer a fan. Including how I haven't been a fan of Scott's character for two decades now and also how I'm finding him problematic even in the Claremont era. What I said about Logan not treating her as badly (he never cheated on her, dumped her, abandoned her, etc.) is the truth so if that bothers you that just goes to show that you know your favorite has some issues he needs to work out. And it's also 100% true that Wolverine is more popular than Cyclops so that's hardly an insult when everyone knows that. Would you get as uppity if I said that Spider-Man is more popular than Ant-Man in an Ant-Man thread and that's a known fact?

    If you consider the fact that I've been let down as a Jott shipper so much that I really can't find it in myself to ship them anymore offensive that is your own prerogative. Jean was never with Cyclops when he was with Wrongclops so that really isn't offensive to this ship at all. If anything, the very existence of Wrongclops is offensive to Jott and part of the reason why Jott ended. I would think you'd be more understanding of that.

    Scott doesn't have anything to complain about because he's not the one who was killed off because editorial wanted a fake blonde to move in on the relationship. Since Jean came back, has Scott ever once apologized for cheating on her and moving on? Or all of his terrorist actions during the whole period she was dead, including killing Professor X, after which Jean herself reached out from the White Hot Room and pulled the Phoenix out of Cyclops? I don't think it's offensive at all for Jott fans that Jean gets some closure because she and Scott haven't had a chance to hash out their issues that have been festering for 2 decades now. And most of those issues are rightfully blamed on Scott because Jean isn't the one who gave up on the marriage as you no doubt well know.

    Because I think Scott overreacted in an AU comic, that makes me a hater of him? Lol, if I said I didn't approve of Jean's actions in one issue would that make it 100% impossible for me to ever like her? And how is it offensive that Claremont included hints that Wolverine would be Xavier's successor instead of Cyclops when that's exactly what ended up occuring in canon during the post-Decimation days? I do think Scott was jealous in that comic based on his attitude in the 616 universe because AvX proved he was power hungry and refused to give up the Phoenix. Once more, it was Jean who reached out and took that from him and helped him from the beyond and she even said he was being stupid. Is it offensive now to recount what occurred in the canon pages? He did kill the Professor so calling him a murderer is justified.

    That whole post of yours was an unsuccessful attempt at a smear job against me and you purposefully ignored and didn't put in bold any of my positive comments towards the ship. I can like a ship without agreeing 100% with one of the characters in the ship but something tells me that you're more of a Cyclops fan than you are a Jott fan, hence why this was all so offensive to you. And I'll be the first to admit that I used to be a Cyclops fan mainly only because of being a Jean fan and a Jott fan.
    Last edited by whitecrown; 06-21-2020 at 01:40 AM.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    At the time Storm was not an X-Character, but under the purview of the Black Panther writer. She was unavailable due to an editorial mistake - she SHOULD have been promptly put back into the X-Office after decimation, or M-Day, but she wasn't.

    Xavier had lost legitimacy due to a number of his dark secrets coming out, plus after M-Day he was missing and depowered.

    Plus, wasn't Magneto also missing for a while after M-Day as well?

    Scott didn't assume control due to being power hungry, but because there was literally no one else with any real weight as a leader to be able to do so. Editors and writers had, by a combination of choice and accident (in Storm's case), cleared the table of anyone else who could take up the role. And this is coming from someone who thinks Scott is better suited as a team leader than a societal one.

    But rehashing M-Day through AvX isn't what this thread is for - this is an appreciation thread for Scott and Jean's relationship. If you aren't able to do that, then why are you here?
    After Storm came back, she could have taken over. Cyclops never gave her a chance.

    Dark secrets is ironic considering everything Cyclops has done out in the open since then.

    Magneto came back eventually though so why couldn't Cyclops have let him lead if he felt Xavier's way wasn't working anymore?

    He may not have been power hungry at the start but it's canon that he certainly was by the end as seen in AvX when he refused to give up the power, killed off Xavier, and Jean had to pull the power out of him.

    I'm only bringing all this drama up to justify my point about why I didn't see why Scott had an issue with what Xavier and Jean did in Renew Your Vows and that's pertinent to this thread because it's what split them up in that universe. I was responding to other users, not you anyway.

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