The Rectangle 2020 - Logan/Jean/Scott/Emma Discussion

[houndsofluv]

I feel like anything I add to this is just gonna be reiterations of stuff I already said lol. as much as I live to discuss I hate becoming a broken record
let me just say that sexuality is fluid and complicated and scott/Logan/jean/Emma would be a MUCH better handling of this fluidity than iceman's unceremonious ousting from the closest he didn't even know he was in...

[SpiderClops]

Hence why it is subtext, but that doesn't mean it isn't clearly meant to be there and picked up upon by adult audiences.

Please don't call obvious-as-crap-trolling-innuendos "subtext".

[MechaJeanix]

I really don't see what's so clever about middle school innuendos.

"Whatever you like is canon! Whatever you don't is not!" is one of the worst types of storytelling imho.

By the way, monogamy is not "human" culture. Many communities and religions had polygamy/polyamory as norms, some have still to this day. Mutants didn't invent that and passing it off as some big "rejection of human ways" makes them look like hipsters.

You must have missed my intro to sociology lecture recently in the Jean Grey thread. No where did I say Monogamy was culture -though it is a social construct and a social act. Again it is reflects the concept of mutual obligation where people decide to commit to each other and agree not to have other sexual partners. I have greatly acknowledged that sexual norms change and have changed throughout human history/culture.

In fact it was another poster that tried to say that monogamy was not social which is beyond bizarre since it is a social act between people. It is also a form of informal social control because it compels people to act in very specific ways. Humans are social beings so we cannot discount or divorce the symbolic social interactive context of human behavior nor can we discount the coercive power of institutions that constantly guides and push us to act in certain ways (and to reinforce societal norms, values, customs, beliefs).

Mutants of course are humans but if you read House of X and Powers of X the mutants are attempting to "other' themselves from humans without the x-gene. In fact Xavier has said on panel how they don't want to model themselves after the humans (look at the discussion in X-force about the Mutant CIA or even the pages where they sentence Sabretooth in House of X - heck look at a lot of Magneto's dialogue in this era. Another example is in New Mutants where a character talks about how they are doing education differently, and if I recall the character puts down human institutions. So they do see themselves differently even though they are human.

Hickman is giving the mutants culture. I'm not sure why this upsets people, but if you are used to a homogenous culture then I can sort of understand why it makes someone uncomfortable. It is no different from people who draw cultural differences based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, or sexuality. The mutants are a group, even though they are unrelated and not always connected to each other, but they are a group based on common characteristics (their mutations). They will still be limited in the ways they separate (effectively "othering") themselves from humans (because they are human) but in this era they continue to show why they believe they are different (and their desire to be different and better). I do think it is this superiority that upsets people (but many religious people feel a level of superiority due to having specialized knowledge of the world/universe, LGBT people sometimes feel superior to the everyday white cis het dudes, etc - I'm not saying it is right but it is something that certainly exists).

Again, while there are a lot of variation in human sexual behavior, in a lot of places including the U.S. there is a idea or expectation still that people ought to be heterosexual and monogamous (because of religious norms, etc). I think in the Krakoan era mutants are encouraged to be more about free love and free expression of that love and that is why we get the hints/nods/winks at poly-esque behavior from our main X-folks. Again who knows if it will ever be confirmed. It probably will not. I do worry about queer baiting and trolling, but if it silences ship wars it will all be worth it. Though if this board is any indication the shippers are still ticked off even though they have exactly what they want (but it also means the other ships are just as valid and those fans got exactly what they want too!). Everyone wins!

I long for the day that Scott/Jean shippers and Scott/Emma shippers and Jean/Logan shippers stop fighting and arguing and care less about the romance aspect of X-men comics. Romance will always be a part of superhero comics (they are soap operas after all) but it shouldn't be the main focus to the point it constantly ruins the fun and experience of the books (just my humble opinion).

[SiegePerilous02]

Please don't call obvious-as-crap-trolling-innuendos "subtext".

You don't have to dismiss it as "trolling" just because you don't like it.

Not everyone is upset about a new angle possibly being explored to feel "trolled."

[SpiderClops]

Of these four characters, two of them are telepaths, one of whom has ascended to a higher plane of existence and become one with a cosmic force on more than one occasion, and another is an effectively immortal dude who has lived for at least a century if not longer. I'm pretty sure most, if not all of them, have also experienced death and resurrection at least once. Their thought processes and what they are willing to try are not going to line up 100% with real people.

And when have any of them shown interest in polygamy/polyamory? Answer: NEVER.
And just because someone has lived long doesn't mean they are bisexual. And honestly, by your own logic, Jean shouldn't give two shits about humans or mutants or anyone. She has literally ascended to higher plane of existence and become one with a cosmic force. It made her bi and willing to share and be shared. Yep.

For even broaching the subject and getting us to discuss this...

I'm going to stop you right there. Picking up a non mainstream topic does not automatically make your writing clever in any way. If anything, it's usually the opposite. There's a reason they say, "write what you know".

Bisexuality exists.

Heterosexuality also exists. But apparently, we can't say that.

[SiegePerilous02]

And when have any of them shown interest in polygamy/polyamory? Answer: NEVER.
And just because someone has lived long doesn't mean they are bisexual. And honestly, by your own logic, Jean shouldn't give two shits about humans or mutants or anyone. She has literally ascended to higher plane of existence and become one with a cosmic force. It made her bi and willing to share and be shared. Yep.

I guess so, because there would be a basis there for a writer to explore that if they wanted to.

Living long enough doesn't mean they are automatically bisexual. But real life people don't live as long as Logan or have the weird ass life he does. Which is why you arguing that he realistically wouldn't be bisexual or just open minded enough to try new things every once and a while is a tad ludicrous. Nobody in real life is like any of these people or their experiences. This is a weird hill to die on, considering the X-Men have had lots of bisexual hints, especially because Claremont loved to inject it in (especially among the female characters.

I'm going to stop you right there. Picking up a non mainstream topic does not automatically make your writing clever in any way. If anything, it's usually the opposite. There's a reason they say, "write what you know".

This is again a weird stance to take for the X-Men in particular, considering the franchise thrives on doing controversial and unprecedented things for superhero comics. Claremont made them popular by taking a lot of chances and addressing taboo subjects and making some weird creative decisions. He stumbled quite a bit at times, but overall the efforts are what put them on the map.

This is why most main X-runs outside of Claremont's original and Morrison are not particularly interesting.

Heterosexuality also exists. But apparently, we can't say that.

We aren't? Could have fooled me, with all the heterosexual romances that exist in the vast majority of mainstream superhero comics.

[MechaJeanix]

And when have any of them shown interest in polygamy/polyamory? Answer: NEVER.
And just because someone has lived long doesn't mean they are bisexual. And honestly, by your own logic, Jean shouldn't give two shits about humans or mutants or anyone. She has literally ascended to higher plane of existence and become one with a cosmic force. It made her bi and willing to share and be shared. Yep.


I'm going to stop you right there. Picking up a non mainstream topic does not automatically make your writing clever in any way. If anything, it's usually the opposite. There's a reason they say, "write what you know".



Heterosexuality also exists. But apparently, we can't say that.

Heterosexuality is literally everywhere. It certainly is everywhere I look. In fact it is near impossible to escape in our world. It has become such an oppressive norm that it continues to harm those of us who are not heterosexual. I know it is important to those of you who practice this behavior and I understand that. I do think that certain characters like Scott Summers have been shown to be very heterosexual as his character certainly likes women and has a history of romancing women. But men who define themselves as straight are capable of various sexual behaviors that may contradict their identity. I'm just saying we limit ourselves a lot due to expectations from society and culture and we are probably capable of a lot more behaviors than we routinely exhibit or take part in.

Plus since these characters are fictional so they can be changed or expanded (see Iceman). I really doubt they will come out and say Scott has had contact with Logan without Jean present. In fact I think they will keep teasing for a long while but ultimately I bet they put Scott and Jean together and just ignore all the other potential shenanigans going on with Emma and Logan. That is what I think will happen not what I think should happen.

[Tycon]

Scott and Logan aren't gay, there was never hints about it. i'm against turning characters gays just to appease 5k people on twitter

This sounds just like something a CGer would say, which I’m sure you didn’t intend. But this double over backwards thing that’s happening just to discredit something so blatantly obvious that everyone reading the book is talking about it causes this fluctuation thing where the goal post for what counts and Hickman’s reasons for doing so dramatically shifts every week a book comes out. Seriously, these strongly anti-poly justifications range from bringing up very great points about queerbaiting to straight up parroting homophobic strawman arguments.

[SpiderClops]

I guess so, because there would be a basis there for a writer to explore that if they wanted to.

Living long enough doesn't mean they are automatically bisexual. But real life people don't live as long as Logan or have the weird ass life he does. Which is why you arguing that he realistically wouldn't be bisexual or just open minded enough to try new things every once and a while is a tad ludicrous. Nobody in real life is like any of these people or their experiences. This is a weird hill to die on, considering the X-Men have had lots of bisexual hints, especially because Claremont loved to inject it in (especially among the female characters.

Except the fact that Logan has never once shown interest in other men.

Also, I love the fact that instead of making bi all the characters that did have hints, they're making the ones that definitely didn't. Hell, even Claremont invents new straight love-interests out of nowhere for his bi-hinted characters whenever he comes back like he did with Kitty.

This is again a weird stance to take for the X-Men in particular, considering the franchise thrives on doing controversial and unprecedented things for superhero comics. Claremont made them popular by taking a lot of chances and addressing taboo subjects and making some weird creative decisions. He stumbled quite a bit at times, but overall the efforts are what put them on the map.

And it wasn't because he chose controversial topics, it's because he did them well. My point still stands.

This is why most main X-runs outside of Claremont's original and Morrison are not particularly interesting.

Now who's denying facts here?

We aren't? Could have fooled me, with all the heterosexual romances that exist in the vast majority of mainstream superhero comics.

I knew this goal-post moving response was coming.

[SiegePerilous02]

Except the fact that Logan has never once shown interest in other men.

Depends on where you look I guess. But X-Men has their own "Ho Yay" sub-page on Tv Tropes and Logan is mentioned in a few examples
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...cussion/page55

And he can still not overall be interested in men if he gives this poly thing a whirl and it ends up not being for him in the long run.

And it wasn't because he chose controversial topics, it's because he did them well. My point still stands.

Your subjective point that he did them well and Hickman isn't still stands for you. Not everyone is going to agree.

Now who's denying facts here?

My statement is opinion based, I should have added a IMO.

It isn't even factual that either Claremont or Morrison's run are the best, even though the vast majority of fans seem to hold up the former in particular as the best. So there are no facts to deny here. I've sampled enough other X-books here and there to know there isn't much out there I'd find interesting or good (aside from some of Mike Carey's stuff). So if Hickman's run is contradicting stuff I wouldn't be drawn to anyway...I personally could not care less.

I knew this goal-post moving response was coming.

Then why did you even bring it up? Especially as nobody was saying heterosexuality didn't exist.

[TheCape]

And he can still not overall be interested in men if he gives this poly thing a whirl and it ends up not being for him in the long run.

Knowing Logan's personality, that's probably the conclusion that he would have drawn for this whole expirience when all is said and done (assuming than that is what is actually happening anyway).

[maxi_miceli]

Except the fact that Logan has never once shown interest in other men.

Also, I love the fact that instead of making bi all the characters that did have hints, they're making the ones that definitely didn't. Hell, even Claremont invents new straight love-interests out of nowhere for his bi-hinted characters whenever he comes back like he did with Kitty.

Fun fact. It's very normal for Bisexual people not to give "hints" about their bisexuality before coming out. No one expected me to be bisexual until I came out
And if there is one male character that doesn't need many changes to be made Bi is Wolverine. You have subtext for Logan/Scott Logan/Kurt Logan/Remy and there's a canon version of Wolverine that is Bi/Gay

[Omega Alpha]

That is what hipsters do. Four characters that have never, not once, shown even the nanoscopic interest in polygamy/polyamory are now suddenly doing foursome. Sure. Clever writing. It's liberating them.

Complain characters previously weren't shown to be poly is silly when something like this would be absolutely unthinkable and impossible even 5 years ago . Plus, many couples decide to open their relationships after years of monogamy, and they are often much older than Scott, Jean and Emma are, and don't have telepathic powers and a history of literally returning from the dead after months or years.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Sorry guys, but Jean Grey has only been shown with one partner EVER and suddenly she would be into polygamy? Even if you for some reason take all of the other dynamics between these four dynamos out of the equation, there's still that little detail that makes this hypothetical not quite believable.

Take this as just as much a criticism of the 'Jott or death' mandate for Jean Grey as you take it as criticism of AO3ing the characters without accounting for their histories.

Had Jean been allowed th he same opportunities for relationship exploration that some of the other characters have, this idea would be more grounded.

[Omega Alpha]

Sorry guys, but Jean Grey has only been shown with one partner EVER and suddenly she would be into polygamy? Even if you for some reason take all of the other dynamics between these four dynamos out of the equation, there's still that little detail that makes this hypothetical not quite believable.

Take this as just as much a criticism of the 'Jott or death' mandate for Jean Grey as you take it as criticism of AO3ing the characters without accounting for their histories.

Had Jean been allowed th he same opportunities for relationship exploration that some of the other characters have, this idea would be more grounded.

Again, this happens in real life very often, and EXACTLY one of the reasons is because of one of the partners or both have never been involved sexually or romantically with anyone else.