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  1. #226
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Literally nobody is saying get rid of Zatanna's backward speech...
    Yeah, not sure where everyone is getting that from. Plenty of ways to incorporate that into something new and more organic. It's not either/or.

  2. #227
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Literally nobody is saying get rid of Zatanna's backward speech...
    Not quite correct...

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin30 View Post
    Here is my pitch for Zatanna
    1. GET RID OF THE BACKWARD TALKING!!
    Or use it as less as you can.
    2. Magic is more like advanced science. It has rules. Any human can learn them but it requires a lot of training, practice, experience etc.
    3. Have an episode for each of the new tricks she learns or make her design props that are magical in nature. Use them as creatively as you can.
    4. Build a limited arsenal of spells for her. Spells that assist her but not solve the problem entirely. It should require an amount of physical effort. Im talking about stuff that happens in shows like Naruto.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Not quite correct...
    That was my initial proposition. I have changed my stance on that since then.
    In the latter, I said we can keep the Backward Talking but the backward words should be like activation codes for spells she has prepared beforehand. Her words shouldn't dictate what the spell does.

    She can have some minor spells which she can cast anytime without effort.(preferably without words)
    But for major spells, she must take time to prepare them and mention that she has them way before she puts them to use.

    BTW I read something with Zee in it that came out recently and I am seriously upset.
    It kinda makes me think that if she wasn't shown to be so powerful in the beginning, the writer might have planned something else for her.

  4. #229
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Turning her magic into a spell kit akin to a utility belt sure seems reductive to me. I really don't like turning Zatanna into a preparatory character. I think she's fine as-is.

  5. #230
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Turning her magic into a spell kit akin to a utility belt sure seems reductive to me. I really don't like turning Zatanna into a preparatory character. I think she's fine as-is.
    Not a spell kit by any means, merely actual representation of magick with rules and narrative weight. She can still have backwards spells and all that, just needs a context to her stories.

    The "pew pew" depiction of magick is boring.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 08-06-2020 at 11:19 AM.

  6. #231
    Incredible Member starduck's Avatar
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    I think she's fine as is. she honestly seems more limited than other wizards(Dr Fate, Enchantress, Circe) who can do anything she can without having to say anything. also imo she works better as a magician superhero than the goth biker occultist they always try to turn her into.

  7. #232
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I liked how Justice League Action had her normal backwards spells plus a lot of flashier spell stuff.


  8. #233
    Incredible Member signalman112's Avatar
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    Good video. I hope Lacey Chabert continues to voice Zatanna in future animated projects.
    I also enjoy her work on CROSSWORD MYSTERIES. The last movie was a magic theme mystery.

    LaceyCrossword.jpg

  9. #234
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Lacey Chabert was excellent casting as Zatanna. Though I am still partial to Jennifer Hale's voice for her in JLU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I like where you're coming from on this.

    Too often magic is portrayed frivolously, and a lot of that is due to a lack of understanding- magic should have weight and rules to it. Far too often in comics we get "glowy hands" instead of real honest exploration of the craft (and hell 'the craft' could be something entirely made up for the character without real roots in the real world, it just needs to make narrative sense).
    There was a great thread on the Marvel Comic sub forum on Dr. Strange and the various different rules for magic with links to some of the best reads I've had on the subject. There was also, I think, an infographic from the recent JLD that broke down the different types of magic users in the DCU. Zatanna and her family are Homo-Magi; born with the innate ability to cast spells, Spectre and Dr Fate (depending on the incarnation) fall into the category of regular humans empowered by magical beings with sub categories that accounts for Swamp Thing, Wonder Woman and Etrigan the Demon. Then you have characters like Zauriel, Phantom Stranger, the various pantheons who are just magical beings onto themselves. I would add another sub category where a characters 'magic' manifests as specific abilities which is the case for characters like Nightshade and Black Alice. Then another category would be characters who are otherwise normal but gain power through various mystic artifacts.

    Back to Zee, her backwards speak has always been a focusing agent. I think the best analogy I've heard is that it's the difference between turning a screw with your screw driver or using your hand for that. I do agree with some ground rules for magic but they have to be broad guidelines, you don't want to put off writers from using a character because too many rules stifles story telling. There is also no rule book that's so good that a Bendis-esque writers can't screw up. I would also note that Zatanna was de-powered once, way back in the 80's and that didn't stick either. Another thing is that though she gets the occasional 'girl power' moment after which she gets easily side lined or 'oh no he/she/it is too powerful! Constantine help me!' moments. She hasn't been a top tier mage on the top of her game who can overcome challenges for a while now (though I did enjoy bits and pieces of what I have read of Tynion's run).

    My approach to magic would be like this (this is admittedly something I think about a lot):

    Magic is energy. Homo Magi are people who possess a natural reservior of that energy. The energy also exists everywhere, with some locations being magical hotspots while others barely have that energy. Homo Magi have to learn how to use that energy to cast spells but learning it is hard as they have to learn how to channel that energy (be it backward words, rhyming, hand movements, etc), visualize and keep 5-6 different things in mind while doing it so it's not just the words they say (not unlike how a software designer or an artist have to keep several things in mind while working). The better they get, the more their reservior of magic grows meaning, spells that may have once taken minutes or hours to cast can be done in seconds but using too much of their magic exhausts them mentally and physically. Powerful spells can whittle away their souls/life span. You can buff up your spells by collecting magical artificats allowing you to increase the scale of your spells and maybe learn a few new tricks along the way. A magician wants to teleport? Well, do they have enough energy? Is it a magical hotspot? If so they can transport there with ease. If not, they need to have their symbols drarwn on their destination to land there. A Homo Magi wants to communicate with the dead? Is there souls energy still lingering in the place they died or some location that was sentimental to them? If they died in a horrific manner, there might be a chance to communicate. Is some force trying to hold down their spirits from going into the afterlife? If there are minute traces, a seance might help but it's only a 30% chance it will work. Did a magician really try to resurrect the dead and did it with forbidden magic? Well, they better undo it fast because the various keepers of deaths always collects their debt with interest. Do you want to time travel? No Homo Magi's natural power will be enough to time travel. Time to start cutting deals with omnipotent beings but even then you might not get what you bargained for. Do you want to reality warp? Well, a sufficiently strong illusionist can always fake reality warping but the trick is always in maintaining that illusion. If you want to real reality warping, you better pack up and start hunting powerful beings and get them to agree to with you but there is a good chance that they are just playing with you or using you for their own agenda. Some spells require prep time, others can be done on the fly.

  10. #235
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Lacey Chabert was excellent casting as Zatanna. Though I am still partial to Jennifer Hale's voice for her in JLU.
    I think Julie Brown is underrated as the original DCAU Zatanna.

  11. #236
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Julie Brown is underrated as the original DCAU Zatanna.
    "Why do you care about some leggy dame in nylons or did I just answer my own question?"

    Yes, yes she is.

    Melissa Gilbert, the OG Batgirl, is underrated as well.

  12. #237
    Writer of Jack The Hunted Power Torch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Julie Brown is underrated as the original DCAU Zatanna.
    She was fantastic! I don't think they've ever picked a bad voice actor for Zatanna. She even sounds amazing in DCUO.

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  13. #238
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    "Why do you care about some leggy dame in nylons or did I just answer my own question?"
    The funny part is she's not even wearing nylons .


    Melissa Gilbert, the OG Batgirl, is underrated as well.
    Agreed .

  14. #239
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    I think "POTS" and its synonyms like EZEERF, EZYLARAP, etc are the worst kind of spells for these reasons-

    1. Too overpowered. No matter how strong the opponent is, if he doesn't know magic, the spell takes him out instantly. It hampers proper story telling.

    2. Visually Unappealing. The artist draws one panel and then copys that to another panel to show that the thing has stopped. No need to draw anything extra.

    3. Very Unsatisfactory. This is the real reason I wanted to make this post. So many times I've wanted her to kick the shit out of the someone and totally humiliate them but she uses this pacifist approach instead.
    I just feel cheated out of my desire for vengence.

    4. Creates Loopholes. Just knowing that she has this kind of spell makes you question - why doesn't she use this spell to deal with every villain? It has four letters so it doesn't take much time and it solves almost every problem.

    5. Limits Creativity. The writers get a free pass to not come up with something creative to deal with a situation.

    6. Partly responsible for why she doesn't appear much outside comics related to magic. Even when she does appear, its only for one or two pages
    Last edited by Edwin30; 08-10-2020 at 04:33 AM.

  15. #240
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I don't think 'Pots' is the reason why she gets underused so much as not many writers outside of Paul Dini taking an active interest in her. Since the Nu52, John Constantine is the primary magic guy of DC. If there is any magic related crisis at DC, he's the one doling out instructions to other DC heroes even to folks like Batman who has prior history with Zatanna.

    Anyway, pots is easily solvable; Zatanna grits her teeth, arms raised forward, tenses her muscles and goes 'uggh, he's....powerful'. If we take 'pots' as her creating magical restraints on her opponents, then naturally characters with super strength would require stronger 'shackles' and it uses up more energy which could be spent on another spell or she has to cancel the spell so she can concentrate on another spell. Sufficiently strong magicians like Felix Faust or Morgan LeFay would have contingencies and counter spells prepared and straight up god like characters would be immune to it. Telepaths like Despero and AI's like Brainiac would find a way around it especially the latter with his various alien technology.

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