The Avengers Appreciation 2020

[Rang10]

Hickman problems weren't the change son the characters, since his storytelling isnt chaarcter driven. He was telling a story using the avengers instead of Avengers story. As a story it works better, but as a Avengers books it was bad

[your_name_here]

Hickman problems weren't the change son the characters, since his storytelling isnt chaarcter driven. He was telling a story using the avengers instead of Avengers story. As a story it works better, but as a Avengers books it was bad

The Iron-Man/Cap rivalry was the whole heart of Hickmans Avengers.

[Frontier]

The Iron-Man/Cap rivalry was the whole heart of Hickmans Avengers.

But it didn't really matter in the end compared to the Reed/Doom/T'Challa/Namor stuff in New Avengers. At best it just kept The Avengers distracted from dealing with the real issue.

Tony and Steve basically died trying to murder each other and it was basically glossed over, like Superior Iron Man was.

[charliehustle415]

Hickman problems weren't the change son the characters, since his storytelling isnt chaarcter driven. He was telling a story using the avengers instead of Avengers story. As a story it works better, but as a Avengers books it was bad

What does a "Avengers Story" mean?

[your_name_here]

But it didn't really matter in the end compared to the Reed/Doom/T'Challa/Namor stuff in New Avengers. At best it just kept The Avengers distracted from dealing with the real issue.

Tony and Steve basically died trying to murder each other and it was basically glossed over, like Superior Iron Man was.

Hickmans whole POINT was that it didn’t matter. That’s what the run is about.
None of it matters against the inevitable.
I agree that I wish we’d seen a little more either during/after Secret Wars in regards Cap/Tony, BP/Namor and even the rest of The Avengers.

[Rang10]

What does a "Avengers Story" mean?

A story about the avengers and their relationships. Hickman Avengers was high concept but lacked on that

But it didn't really matter in the end compared to the Reed/Doom/T'Challa/Namor stuff in New Avengers. At best it just kept The Avengers distracted from dealing with the real issue.

Tony and Steve basically died trying to murder each other and it was basically glossed over, like Superior Iron Man was.

I remember liking the run, but the end with Steve and Tony punchhing each other while the world ended really mae me rethink it. it was more about a secret cabal messing up and heroes fighting between theirselves.

[Digifiend]

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-michael-c...ariant-series/

[Frontier]

Hickmans whole POINT was that it didn’t matter. That’s what the run is about.
None of it matters against the inevitable.
I agree that I wish we’d seen a little more either during/after Secret Wars in regards Cap/Tony, BP/Namor and even the rest of The Avengers.

I mean, that kind of defeats the point of reading it a little .

[charliehustle415]

A story about the avengers and their relationships. Hickman Avengers was high concept but lacked on that

The entire run was about Tony and Steve and how the former betrayed the latter.

I mean Hickman's whole thesis was: hubris vs. humility.

Tony is hubris incarnate so much so that he mind wiped the greatest Avenger Captain America and he did so because he thought he knew better.

Steve is humility incarnate so much so that it got in the way of pragmatism in the face of destruction until it eventually left him broken fighting to death with his brother in arms.

How is this not about relationships?

[charliehustle415]

Hickmans whole POINT was that it didn’t matter. That’s what the run is about.
None of it matters against the inevitable.
I agree that I wish we’d seen a little more either during/after Secret Wars in regards Cap/Tony, BP/Namor and even the rest of The Avengers.

This I think was the overarching point of Hickman's Avengers that the players i.e. Steve/Tony/T'Challa/Reed/Namor were so caught up in their drama they dropped the ball and didn't focus on the true threat.

As I said above this entire run is about dysfunctional relationships

[Frontier]

The entire run was about Tony and Steve and how the former betrayed the latter.

I mean Hickman's whole thesis was: hubris vs. humility.

Tony is hubris incarnate so much so that he mind wiped the greatest Avenger Captain America and he did so because he thought he knew better.

Steve is humility incarnate so much so that it got in the way of pragmatism in the face of destruction until it eventually left him broken fighting to death with his brother in arms.

How is this not about relationships?

Relationships as far as an inter-team dynamic and not the Steve and Tony show.

And I think a lack of consequences and character development from what happened with Steve and Tony in that run made it not age as well. It ended up not mattering to the real Secret Wars storyline.

[charliehustle415]

Relationships as far as an inter-team dynamic and not the Steve and Tony show.

And I think a lack of consequences and character development from what happened with Steve and Tony in that run made it not age as well. It ended up not mattering to the real Secret Wars storyline.

The consequence was that the universe ended.


I mean it is up to the author who to focus on. Bendis chose street level and newbies on his run and Aaron is using more cosmic/magical heroes I think it will differ writer to writer.

[Frontier]

The consequence was that the universe ended.


I mean it is up to the author who to focus on. Bendis chose street level and newbies on his run and Aaron is using more cosmic/magical heroes I think it will differ writer to writer.

I meant afterwards. They never really addressed how their utter failure to work together doomed the universe or was pointless. They were just best buds like normal.

I think that's more roster-specific than focus specific. Like Luke Cage being the lead and main character of Bendis' New Avengers, more or less, but that's separate from the roster.

[Rang10]

The entire run was about Tony and Steve and how the former betrayed the latter.

I mean Hickman's whole thesis was: hubris vs. humility.

Tony is hubris incarnate so much so that he mind wiped the greatest Avenger Captain America and he did so because he thought he knew better.

Steve is humility incarnate so much so that it got in the way of pragmatism in the face of destruction until it eventually left him broken fighting to death with his brother in arms.

How is this not about relationships?

That is just one relationship. Both were wrong, Stark nlinded by his arrogance and Steve blinded by his duty and vengeance on Tony.
Both failed to save the world. Hickman was the opposite of Endgame movie

And we already sw this on Ccil War, just repeated plot

[Hypestyle]

how many new villains have been created in the past five years?

more villains overall are needed. not just "masterminds" & "cosmics" but other mid-level bad guys too.