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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I think writers find it difficult in general to create relatable or partially sympathetic villains (anti-villains) without reforming them all the way.

    That being said, I think Cheetah is a decent candidate and Wonder Woman is all about compassion. I'd rather keep her a villain, but with some kind of respect in her relationship with Wonder Woman.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Rucka already made her sympathetic in his Rebirth run. I don't think I see her going full anti-hero but I don't mind her having a complex characterization. Besides no matter what happens Diana will always have sympathy towards Cheetah and cherish their former friendship anyway, which is where I think the whole "de-villifying" notion originates from. Wonder Woman will never hate Cheetah or treat her like a monster who is beyond redemption, she will always want to believe that she can change for the better. It's what makes Diana who she is.
    Last edited by Johnny; 01-03-2020 at 03:47 PM.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Going back to Priscilla Rich, the Cheetah is a character who constantly struggles between her good and evil personas and whenever she makes any sort of progress, she undoes it due to her petty jealousy and ambitions.

    I don't see it happening any time soon and sticking, and I hope it doesn't. It would miss the point of the tragedy of her character. Like you could believably reform some of Batman's villains and have it stick (Harvey Dent is the main one I'm thinking of) and it would be more true to the core of their character's than it would Cheetah,

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I don't know, I think there are other avenues to explore. The reason she took the Cheetah powers back in the first place was to save Etta, but she hasn't mentioned her since. If any of Diana's big bads were to be reformed I'd rather it be Ares or Circe. Ares works best as an antagonist and Circe has been inching closer to anti-hero ever since she became Diana's friend as Donna Milton.
    That was only one reason, and I think she used it as a smokescreen. Steve and Etta weren't in any insurmountable danger yet and she could have escaped with them. On some level she was hoping that Veronica Cale could make her Cheetah again without any of the drawbacks, but as we saw that was foolish of her. She then deflected the blame over to Veronica and Diana, which I think is a good example of making her sympathetic to a point, but her own failings do a lot to bring her down.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I'm in favor of making villains more sympathetic, or even reforming them, a lot of the time.

    My "Sympathize But Don't Reform" Pile Includes:
    • Cheetah
    • Sinestro
    • Poison Ivy
    • Black Manta
    • Dr Poison

    My "Sympathize and Reform" Pile Includes:
    • Lex Luthor
    • Live Wire
    • New 52 Metallo
    • Harley Quinn
    • Harvey "Two-Face" Dent

    My "Neither Sympathize nor Reform" Pile Includes:
    • Brainiac
    • Darkseid
    • Joker

    So I hope they don't reform Cheetah, but I'm not worried if they make her sympathetic.
    I wonder where does Mr. Freeze fall under ?

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    And the reason why top ten lists are so low on female villains is because the majority of them are terrible. They're either femme fatales, women scorned, misandrists or lackeys to a male villain.
    I don't think that's true, although probably a lot of them have untapped potential.

    Catwoman and Poison Ivy both being femme fatales never hurt their popularity.

  6. #21
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Well, yeah, she can't date Wonder Woman if she's eating people!
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think that's true, although probably a lot of them have untapped potential.

    Catwoman and Poison Ivy both being femme fatales never hurt their popularity.
    Well they were among the earliest examples of female super villains so they have the grandfather clause on their side.

    And I don't think it's a coincidence that Selina and Ivy (to a lesser extent) has been written as less and less villainous over time. Whatever mistakes have been made with female heroes (and a lot of mistakes have been made) they at least have more diverse roles and personalities.

  8. #23
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well they were among the earliest examples of female super villains so they have the grandfather clause on their side.

    And I don't think it's a coincidence that Selina and Ivy (to a lesser extent) has been written as less and less villainous over time. Whatever mistakes have been made with female heroes (and a lot of mistakes have been made) they at least have more diverse roles and personalities.
    But they're still generally regarded as major villains, like even Harley is (and she's not a Femme Fatale).

    I would say female villains are fairly diverse if you actually look into their characters beyond their attractiveness. Ivy's not Golden Glider, who's not Cheetah, who's not Circe, who's not Siren, etc.

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How many of these villainesses stayed reformed? Hell, between Cassandra Cain, Donna Troy, the Amazons, Raven, Jean Loring, Vanessa Kapatelis, Linda Danvers and others, DC has probably turned more female heroes evil than they've turned female villains good. I hardly saw any complaints when Luthor and Lobo were Justice League members and those two are far worse than any version of Cheetah.

    And the reason why top ten lists are so low on female villains is because the majority of them are terrible. They're either femme fatales, women scorned, misandrists or lackeys to a male villain.



    Circe being anti-hero was very shortlived and was undone by the writer who introduced it. She hasn't been an anti-hero since and certainly isn't one now.
    Yeah I said "inching" because of the softer and gentler revamp Rucka gave her in Rebirth that was all but reversed in Justice League Dark. Before that she hadn't been truly EVIL in Wonder Woman's own book since Amazons Attack. She pretended to be for women as her own version of Wonder Woman and gifted Diana with the ability to be "human" in Heinberg's run which predated AA. Still she's helped other adversaries but hasn't gone after Diana directly under Rucka's pen.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But they're still generally regarded as major villains,
    Ivy, maybe. Selina is generally not written as a full villain these days and is more often than not a Batman ally.

    like even Harley is (and she's not a Femme Fatale).


    I would say female villains are fairly diverse if you actually look into their characters beyond their attractiveness. Ivy's not Golden Glider, who's not Cheetah, who's not Circe, who's not Siren, etc.
    Circe and Siren (in the New 52) actually do fall into some of the criteria I listed in my original comment.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Yeah I said "inching" because of the softer and gentler revamp Rucka gave her in Rebirth that was all but reversed in Justice League Dark. Before that she hadn't been truly EVIL in Wonder Woman's own book since Amazons Attack. She pretended to be for women as her own version of Wonder Woman and gifted Diana with the ability to be "human" in Heinberg's run which predated AA. Still she's helped other adversaries but hasn't gone after Diana directly under Rucka's pen.
    I wouldn't call Rucka's take on her in his second run inching towards an anti hero either given what she was helping Cale do. Circe just seemed disinterested in a personal vendetta with Diana. Even during her Wonder Woman phase she was increasing the powers of other villains like you said and then went back to screwing with Diana again in AA. So she had one period of being an ally to Diana in her Donna Milton persona and then did one supposed "favor" for Diana later but she's been a villain through and through outside of that. And let's not forget her role in the original version of Vanessa Kapatelis' becoming Silver Swan.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-03-2020 at 10:59 PM.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member MadFacedKid's Avatar
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    Hela wasnít given the Loki treatment yet seemed pretty popular for a female villain. Itís all on the script, I could see how theyíd make Minerva sympathetic though

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I wouldn't call Rucka's take on her in his second run inching towards an anti hero either given what she was helping Cale do. Circe just seemed disinterested in a personal vendetta with Diana. Even during her Wonder Woman phase she was increasing the powers of other villains like you said and then went back to screwing with Diana again in AA. So she had one period of being an ally to Diana in her Donna Milton persona and then did one supposed "favor" for Diana later but she's been a villain through and through outside of that. And let's not forget her role in the original version of Vanessa Kapatelis' becoming Silver Swan.
    That was indirect aggression as well. Dr. Psycho got the ball rolling, Circe picked it up and shot it to Sabastian Ballesteros for the score. In Rucka's second run Circe was the agent who turned Phobos and Deimos into dogs for Veronica Cale. That was again helpful to Diana given they had been impersonating Ares in an attempt to find Themyscira. It wasn't done out of malice but for money and Springsteen tickets.
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 01-04-2020 at 12:10 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    That was indirect aggression as well. Dr. Psycho got the ball rolling, Circe picked it up and shot it to Sabastian Ballesteros for the score.
    You're greatly downplaying her role in that entire affair. All three were involved and the story made it clear it was all Circe's idea in the first place. Psycho was simply the one who directly controlled her but there was nothing indirect about Circe's involvement. Within the same arc she turned Superman into a Doomsday-like beast and had him attack Diana and then tried to make Diana kill her on live television.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You're greatly downplaying her role in that entire affair. All three were involved and the story made it clear it was all Circe's idea in the first place. Psycho was simply the one who directly controlled her but there was nothing indirect about Circe's involvement. Within the same arc she turned Superman into a Doomsday-like beast and had him attack Diana and then tried to make Diana kill her on live television.
    Those were Plan A so she didn't have to play as big a part in Plan B.

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