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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Those were Plan A so she didn't have to play as big a part in Plan B.
    Doesn't disprove my point one bit.

  2. #32
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Ivy, maybe. Selina is generally not written as a full villain these days and is more often than not a Batman ally.
    I don't disagree, but my point was that, on a general basis, she's still viewed as a Batman villain.

    Like, expect to see Batman fight Catwoman in The Batman movie even if she is his love interest as well.
    Circe and Siren (in the New 52) actually do fall into some of the criteria I listed in my original comment.
    Maybe, but they're still different characters and female villains when you actually examine them in my opinion.

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe, but they're still different characters and female villains when you actually examine them in my opinion.
    Their New 52 incarnations also didn't appear too much anyway to amount to anything

    Among the major female villains, there are enough to differentiate between them: Harley, Ivy, Catwoman, Talia, Cheetah, Circe, Giganta, Veronica Cale, Granny Goodness, Blackfire, Killer Frost, Terra, and even Livewire have enough going on that they are all distinct from each other. And that's before we get into the female villains that are often neglected who could offer way more variety if they were used, like pretty much Wonder Woman's entire rogues gallery.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I hate "sympathetic" villains, as general rule. As I've said before, my sympathy dies after two or three horrific acts. Sympathetic villains, to me, are only able to work in the short-term. After that, I just feel like they are whining excuse-makers who don't take responsibility for their own actions.

    Also loathe reformed Lex Luthor. Never liked it in the first place, but watching Smallville and whole bunch of fans blaming everyone else and making excuses for every bad thing he did killed that dead for me. Also, the actual show did, too, because while he seemed sympathetic at first, by time the third season ended it was plain he wanted to feel like he was good more than actually be good, since kept making the expedient immoral choice over and over.
    Except if every villain is pure evil, it would get pretty boring, pretty quickly, if all of Wonder Woman's rogues gallery are evil monsters who engage in puppy eating contests.

    Pure evil villains have their place, but you can't make every villain that way, otherwise, it gets dull. A villain has to still do bad things to be a villain, a villain who does not provide menace or conflict or stakes is kinda useless. Poison Ivy does bad things, but protecting the environment is a noble goal, Captain Cold is just a petty thief, but he has enough moral standards to be sympathetic and someone like Magneto does bad things in the face of oppression and bigotry, trying to meet violence with violence. Meanwhile, the likes of Joker and Dr. Psycho did evil things for petty or selfish reasons, so yes while both sets of villains do bad things, one set is morally superior to the other.

    The problem with Cheetah is any attempt to make her sympathetic seems half-hearted, it seems like her default characterization is a female version of Sabertooth, she kills random people for no good reason and seems to have no problem with killing children. She denounces Dr. Light as a rapist and tries to rape the Flash and pals around with Dr. Psycho, which makes her into a giant hypocrite. It's hard to make her sympathetic after all that.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    The problem with Cheetah is any attempt to make her sympathetic seems half-hearted, it seems like her default characterization is a female version of Sabertooth, she kills random people for no good reason and seems to have no problem with killing children. She denounces Dr. Light as a rapist and tries to rape the Flash and pals around with Dr. Psycho, which makes her into a giant hypocrite. It's hard to make her sympathetic after all that.
    None of that is currently canon anymore though.

    She's rarely been a female version of Sabertooth. Priscilla Rich didn't kill too many, if any, people considering the tone of the stories she was in. Barbara Minerva as written by Perez and Jimenez needed to kill people for her transformation, but was selective and was more apathetic than sadistic. Current Cheetah is cursed to hunger for flesh by Urzkartaga, and has been driven insane by the transformation. She's become more monstrous, but completely sadistic like Sabertooth is still kind of a stretch,

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    None of that is currently canon anymore though.

    She's rarely been a female version of Sabertooth. Priscilla Rich didn't kill too many, if any, people considering the tone of the stories she was in. Barbara Minerva as written by Perez and Jimenez needed to kill people for her transformation, but was selective and was more apathetic than sadistic. Current Cheetah is cursed to hunger for flesh by Urzkartaga, and has been driven insane by the transformation. She's become more monstrous, but completely sadistic like Sabertooth is still kind of a stretch,
    So in the Flash/Wonder Woman crossover story in the mid-2000s where Cheetah teams up with Zoom, murders an old lady in her 80s (a crime so vile both Flash and Wonder Woman think the death penalty should be applied to the guilty party when they find scene) and then Cheetah tries to rape the Flash, what is redeeming about any of that?

    Yeah, Barbara Minerva has been written that way and just saying ''Urzkartaga'' is making her do it, is pretty much a cop-out that at point. Also, a villain who is just controlled by someone else can seem more like a pawn than a real player. Wonder Woman in the post Flashpoint era had to realize Minerva was never her friend because she was a psychopathic criminal before becoming Cheetah.

    If they want to redeem Cheetah, they have to write her a bit more consistently.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    So in the Flash/Wonder Woman crossover story in the mid-2000s where Cheetah teams up with Zoom, murders an old lady in her 80s (a crime so vile both Flash and Wonder Woman think the death penalty should be applied to the guilty party when they find scene) and then Cheetah tries to rape the Flash, what is redeeming about any of that?
    Nothing, but it's rather moot since none of it is canon anymore since DC has had like 2-3 reboots since then, and was itself kind of a retcon. Priscilla Rich was not in continuity at the time of Minerva's creation by Perez. It also didn't mesh very well with her prior characterization up until that point anyway. She was more callous than sadistic before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Yeah, Barbara Minerva has been written that way and just saying ''Urzkartaga'' is making her do it, is pretty much a cop-out that at point. Also, a villain who is just controlled by someone else can seem more like a pawn than a real player. Wonder Woman in the post Flashpoint era had to realize Minerva was never her friend because she was a psychopathic criminal before becoming Cheetah.

    If they want to redeem Cheetah, they have to write her a bit more consistently.
    I definitely don't want her to be redeemed nor am I saying that Urzkartaga makes her do anything, or that anyone forced her to walk down the path that lead to her curse. And Urzkartaga is currently dead or inert, she's doing it all herself.

    They shouldn't want to redeem her, she's one of the few marketable villains Wonder Woman has. But there is difference between her being one note evil and having complex motivations and characterizations. She's evil now and capable of heinous acts, but wasn't always evil and she's not consistently a Sabertooth-type character.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Nothing, but it's rather moot since none of it is canon anymore since DC has had like 2-3 reboots since then, and was itself kind of a retcon. Priscilla Rich was not in continuity at the time of Minerva's creation by Perez. It also didn't mesh very well with her prior characterization up until that point anyway. She was more callous than sadistic before that.



    I definitely don't want her to be redeemed nor am I saying that Urzkartaga makes her do anything, or that anyone forced her to walk down the path that lead to her curse. And Urzkartaga is currently dead or inert, she's doing it all herself.

    They shouldn't want to redeem her, she's one of the few marketable villains Wonder Woman has. But there is a difference between her being one note evil and having complex motivations and characterizations. She's evil now and capable of heinous acts but wasn't always evil and she's not consistently a Sabertooth-type character.
    Being callous is not much better than better sadistic from a moral standpoint, IMO, there is no moral virtue in either. Honest question, what is an actual redeeming quality she has? Being apathetic does not count. And something that doesn't make her into a hypocrite, like her being a rapist who calls out other rapists. If Urzkartaga is no longer making her do bad things, what does she do them?

    I think Rich suffers a bit from a rudimentary understanding of mental illness (she was created in the 40s, no surprise there), there is potential there, but it needs a big update to work and I doubt DC is in a hurry to bring her back.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Being callous is not much better than better sadistic from a moral standpoint, IMO, there is no moral virtue in either. Honest question, what is an actual redeeming quality she has? Being apathetic does not count. And something that doesn't make her into a hypocrite, like her being a rapist who calls out other rapists. If Urzkartaga is no longer making her do bad things, what does she do them?
    It's slightly better, but I'm not asking for her to be a good person anyway. And the pre-Flashpoint version isn't around anymore as I said. Rucka's Rebirth version is different person with a different history. I don't think even Dr. Light has committed rape canonically anymore, let alone her, so she's currently not a hypocrite.

    She's mentally damaged due to the effects of her curse. She was freed from it by Diana in the Lies, but the damage was done and she sees herself as the Cheetah and deserving her fate, which is why she subconsciously went back to Cale to be transformed back. She also wants the power without any of Urzkartaga's drawbacks. But she doesn't want to accept responsibility for that part of herself, so when it goes wrong she deflects blame to Diana and Cale for letting it happen to her. She's a mortal women who was messed by a God and now she's a rage filled, vengeful monster lashing out at the world around her. Kind of like Medusa in the myths (whichever version you go with, rape or consensual sex, either way she was turned into a monster by Athena).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    I think Rich suffers a bit from a rudimentary understanding of mental illness (she was created in the 40s, no surprise there), there is potential there, but it needs a big update to work and I doubt DC is in a hurry to bring her back.
    I like Priscilla a lot even though her stories are of course dated. I love them for what they were, but they would need careful updating. I love Alex Ross's design for her, and his take also implied she had some supernatural powers. Priscilla messing around with supernatural stuff that has a negative combination with her mental illness to create the Cheetah might be better than just "she's dangerous entirely due to being mentally ill" but not just any DC creator could do it and have it come out well.

  10. #40
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    If Diana had one solidly good arch-nemesesis, I don't think we'd care. She doesn't. There's no baddy that she seems on a violent collision course with. There's no rogue in her lists, who seems woven into her ongoing narrative. Not one, who can't be done without...

    And that includes Cheetah.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 01-04-2020 at 05:00 PM.
    Look alive, Kangaliers!

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The strange part is that the villains(female or otherwise) who should be reformed never get reformed or the reformation never stick
    Ain't that the truth. If you become popular you get turned good, I guess....
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    None of that is currently canon anymore though.

    She's rarely been a female version of Sabertooth. Priscilla Rich didn't kill too many, if any, people considering the tone of the stories she was in. Barbara Minerva as written by Perez and Jimenez needed to kill people for her transformation, but was selective and was more apathetic than sadistic. Current Cheetah is cursed to hunger for flesh by Urzkartaga, and has been driven insane by the transformation. She's become more monstrous, but completely sadistic like Sabertooth is still kind of a stretch,
    And to add to the history of the Cheetah character being sympathetic:

    - Debbie Domaine was always sympathetic because she was intentionally warped by Kobra

    - Barbara was also semi-reformed during the Loebs run, enough that she at least saved Diana by betraying Cheshire and...someone else. Anyway, Loebs was on record as saying that one of the things he really wanted to bring back to Diana was the idea of reforming her villains, reflecting Golden Age WW.


    Honestly, I really enjoy that part of Diana - the compassionate reformer who understands that reformation doesn't always stick but also doesn't give up. That ideal should always be part of her ethos and Amazonian culture, and it should be much more active than Bats, who just hopes Arkham one day reforms someone, and Supes, who...I don't know. Has Superman ever actively worked toward reformation of villains? This is an ideal that distinguishes Diana, I think, and is one reason I'm not overly fond of the sword.
    Last edited by Frank; 01-04-2020 at 05:56 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    So in the Flash/Wonder Woman crossover story in the mid-2000s where Cheetah teams up with Zoom, murders an old lady in her 80s (a crime so vile both Flash and Wonder Woman think the death penalty should be applied to the guilty party when they find scene) and then Cheetah tries to rape the Flash, what is redeeming about any of that?
    And that old woman, iirc, was the Golden Age Cheetah, who had been reformed and I think had fought Hippolyta when she was the golden age WW.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Being callous is not much better than better sadistic from a moral standpoint, IMO, there is no moral virtue in either. Honest question, what is an actual redeeming quality she has? Being apathetic does not count. And something that doesn't make her into a hypocrite, like her being a rapist who calls out other rapists. If Urzkartaga is no longer making her do bad things, what does she do them?

    I think Rich suffers a bit from a rudimentary understanding of mental illness (she was created in the 40s, no surprise there), there is potential there, but it needs a big update to work and I doubt DC is in a hurry to bring her back.
    When has she ever raped anyone?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's slightly better, but I'm not asking for her to be a good person anyway. And the pre-Flashpoint version isn't around anymore as I said. Rucka's Rebirth version is different person with a different history. I don't think even Dr. Light has committed rape canonically anymore, let alone her, so she's currently not a hypocrite.

    She's mentally damaged due to the effects of her curse. She was freed from it by Diana in the Lies, but the damage was done and she sees herself as the Cheetah and deserving her fate, which is why she subconsciously went back to Cale to be transformed back. She also wants the power without any of Urzkartaga's drawbacks. But she doesn't want to accept responsibility for that part of herself, so when it goes wrong she deflects blame to Diana and Cale for letting it happen to her. She's a mortal women who was messed by a God and now she's a rage filled, vengeful monster lashing out at the world around her. Kind of like Medusa in the myths (whichever version you go with, rape or consensual sex, either way she was turned into a monster by Athena) .
    None of that is sympathetic unless we do some ''an evil god made her do evil things'' cop-out explanation, which makes her seem like a pawn, not a player, it's hard to see Cheetah as a worthy nemesis for Wonder Woman if she is just a pawn. Does she have an actually redeeming quality? An actual redeeming quality would, for example, caring about something besides herself. If she has no real redeeming qualities, it's hard to redeem her. There is nothing wrong with a sympathetic or evil villain, but you have to write them one way or the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I like Priscilla a lot even though her stories are of course dated. I love them for what they were, but they would need careful updating. I love Alex Ross's design for her, and his take also implied she had some supernatural powers. Priscilla messing around with supernatural stuff that has a negative combination with her mental illness to create the Cheetah might be better than just "she's dangerous entirely due to being mentally ill" but not just any DC creator could do it and have it come out well.
    There is potential here, but she would need a massive update to work in modern times. But I do not think DC will bring back Rich anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When has she ever raped anyone?
    She tried to rape the Flash in Wonder Woman 214 (vol. 3).

    This was around the same time she was berating Dr. Light for being a rapist, this, makes her look like a massive hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    And that old woman, iirc, was the Golden Age Cheetah, who had been reformed and I think had fought Hippolyta when she was the golden age WW.
    That still makes Minerva look like a total scum bag.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 01-04-2020 at 11:38 PM.

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