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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    She tried to rape the Flash in Wonder Woman 214 (vol. 3).

    This was around the same time she was berating Dr. Light for being a rapist, this, makes her look like a massive hypocrite.


    All I remember is her flirting with and kissing Wally. Skeevy, yes, but not attempted rape.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    None of that is sympathetic unless we do some ''an evil god made her do evil things'' cop-out explanation, which makes her seem like a pawn, not a player, it's hard to see Cheetah as a worthy nemesis for Wonder Woman if she is just a pawn. Does she have an actually redeeming quality? An actual redeeming quality would, for example, caring about something besides herself. If she has no real redeeming qualities, it's hard to redeem her. There is nothing wrong with a sympathetic or evil villain, but you have to write them one way or the other.
    So I'm confused. Do you want her to be redeemed or don't you?

    Because I'm not arguing in favor of her being redeemed going forward. Just that she started out sympathetically before her path to villainy, but after a certain point she's a full villain. Same as most of the major Bat-villains who aren't the Joker and have a sob story in their origin.
    And I didn't say the evil god made her do things. He cursed her, but she ignored Diana's warnings and took part in the ritual for glory and power, and it bit her in the ass. She does it all on her own and blames others when it goes wrong. I'm arguing against the comparisons to Sabertooth which don't fit are rarely ever have.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So I'm confused. Do you want her to be redeemed or don't you?

    Because I'm not arguing in favor of her being redeemed going forward. Just that she started out sympathetically before her path to villainy, but after a certain point she's a full villain. Same as most of the major Bat-villains who aren't the Joker and have a sob story in their origin.
    And I didn't say the evil god made her do things. He cursed her, but she ignored Diana's warnings and took part in the ritual for glory and power, and it bit her in the ass. She does it all on her own and blames others when it goes wrong. I'm arguing against the comparisons to Sabertooth which don't fit are rarely ever have.
    No I am saying if the writers wanted to redeem her, they would have give her real redeeming qualities.

    You did not answer my question, what are her redeeming qualities?

    You can argue that saying she is a female Sabertooth is going too far, but there are fair amount of times where she just written as an irredeemable psychopath, I just pointed one out. To redeem her, she would need a character arc to be redeemed, I am not saying she should be redeemed, I am disagreeing with the OP that would make sense for the character at this point.

  4. #49
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    I’m ok with this. I’m a little bored/fatigued by the blood-thirsty, savage Cheetah and would be way more receptive to an amoral intellectual/antihero version that leans into the Barbara persona. She should be helping Diana secure dangerous magical/divine artifacts.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    No I am saying if the writers wanted to redeem her, they would have give her real redeeming qualities.
    That's true. But I don't think that's on the table, and i'm glad it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    You did not answer my question, what are her redeeming qualities?

    You can argue that saying she is a female Sabertooth is going too far, but there are fair amount of times where she just written as an irredeemable psychopath, I just pointed one out. To redeem her, she would need a character arc to be redeemed, I am not saying she should be redeemed, I am disagreeing with the OP that would make sense for the character at this point.
    While I'm not a fan of the ship, her love for Etta for one.

    Read Rucka's Rebirth run, particularly her role in Year One (including the interlude issue that focuses on her childhood) and the bits of Godwatch pre-transformation. Does any of this read as an irredeemable psychopath? She loves her girlfriend, she is kind and curious and respectful of other cultures. Her ambitions and envy of Diana lead her down a path that lead to her getting cursed, which drove her insane. The subsequent mental trauma made her and her actions worse. So at this point, I agree that it does not make sense for her character to be redeemed at this point, but that's different than her always having been irredeemable or evil from the start

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's true. But I don't think that's on the table, and i'm glad it isn't.



    While I'm not a fan of the ship, her love for Etta for one.

    Read Rucka's Rebirth run, particularly her role in Year One (including the interlude issue that focuses on her childhood) and the bits of Godwatch pre-transformation. Does any of this read as an irredeemable psychopath? She loves her girlfriend, she is kind and curious and respectful of other cultures. Her ambitions and envy of Diana lead her down a path that lead to her getting cursed, which drove her insane. The subsequent mental trauma made her and her actions worse. So at this point, I agree that it does not make sense for her character to be redeemed at this point, but that's different than her always having been irredeemable or evil from the start
    Fine, but I stand by my point that she has been written as an irredeemable psychopath in the past and is often presented as a petty criminal even before becoming Cheetah. All I am saying is to redeem her, she would need a big character arc for that work.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    Male villains get the same treatment. There was just an entire movie humanizing Joker.
    when they did it with Teth Adam it was an incredibly sad story. ;-; Teth Adam was so heart broken by the end of the story that he gave away his powers to Mary Batson even though he knew he might turn to dust as a result. When he went back to being Black Adam you knew he was gonna rip someone a new one...
    The Super Friends stigma will fade when WW84 comes out. The same way the Aquaman movie mostly washed the SF stigma from him. The show isn't really played that often on TV anymore and the current generation is too young to remember it, so they base their opinions on the movies.
    or DCAU
    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I'm in favor of making villains more sympathetic, or even reforming them, a lot of the time.

    My "Sympathize But Don't Reform" Pile Includes:
    • Cheetah
    • Sinestro
    • Poison Ivy
    • Black Manta
    • Dr Poison

    My "Sympathize and Reform" Pile Includes:
    • Lex Luthor
    • Live Wire
    • New 52 Metallo
    • Harley Quinn
    • Harvey "Two-Face" Dent

    So I hope they don't reform Cheetah, but I'm not worried if they make her sympathetic.
    Wait.. Garth Ranzz (Live Wire) or Leslie Willis(Livewire)?

    Poison Ivy has one character trait that doesn't come up in stories often, but is something a lot of people would sympathize with and on it's own is almost enough to make her an anti-hero. She likes children. In the No Man's Land story Ivy took over protecting Gotham's orphans. Also in Batman: TAS there's a recurring theme with her. She keeps calling her plant creations "children" and gets super pissed when Batman destroys them. Why? Well in one episode she mentions that's she's physically incapable of giving birth to children the old fashioned way. And some of her creations ARE actual people! Such as Bruce Wayne's wife: https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/Susan_Maguire (Batman totally murdered her.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    While Diana is known for reforming her villains with Cheetah I don't think so, mainly because she started out as a friend and was already reformed once but it didn't stick. She's also too high on Wonder Woman's list of adversaries. What can be done with someone like Mayfly doesn't really work for her because Cheetah recurs too often.
    I like Barbara Minerva as a conflicted character who has desires she can't have because her desires conflict with each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well they were among the earliest examples of female super villains so they have the grandfather clause on their side.

    And I don't think it's a coincidence that Selina and Ivy (to a lesser extent) has been written as less and less villainous over time. Whatever mistakes have been made with female heroes (and a lot of mistakes have been made) they at least have more diverse roles and personalities.
    Ivy and Selina are not even the same kind of "femme fatale". Ivy doesn't seduce men in the same way Selina does or for the same reason.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Ivy and Selina are not even the same kind of "femme fatale". Ivy doesn't seduce men in the same way Selina does or for the same reason.
    They're still the same archetype.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They're still the same archetype.
    Point is you can't take a story written for one and replace her with the other and have a story that makes sense.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I thought of another fun example of it being done with a guy. Riddler, in one story arc he decided that testing his intellect by leaving absurd riddles laying around was not a good way to get the general public to see him as intellectually superior to Batman,. so he decided to challenge Batman in a way Batman had never been challenged by one of his rogues before! By becoming a police detective working for the GCPD! His goal: to prove he was smarter than Batman by solving crimes better than Batman!

    The concept amuses me greatly, not sure the writers really knew what to do with it though.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Uncanny Mutie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Male villains can gain popularity but remain villains. It doesn’t seem to be the case with female villains. It’s why most people’s top ten villains list is pretty low on females.
    Or maybe it's because there are way more MALE villains in general than female villains...?
    Last edited by Uncanny Mutie; 01-07-2020 at 11:28 AM.

  12. #57
    Mighty Member Uncanny Mutie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    I want Harley and Ivy to stay straight Villains too. I have no interest in Harley as an anti-hero.
    The, "I want Harley to stay a straight villain and not become an anti-hero" ship sailed a long time ago. In fact, I think it sailed way back when DC made a conscious decision to take her out of the Joker's shadow and keep the two of them separated. She's eventually going to end up like Catwoman; just being fully viewed and accepted as an anti-hero rather than a villain.
    Last edited by Uncanny Mutie; 01-08-2020 at 05:15 AM.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny Mutie View Post
    The, "I want Harley to stay a straight villain and not become an anti-hero" ship sailed a long time ago. In fact, I think it sailed way back when DC made a conscious decision to take her out of the Joker's shadow and keep the two of them separated. She's eventually going to end up like Catwoman; just being fulled viewed and accepted as an anti-hero rather than a villain.
    Which... didn't they start that in Batman: TAS... IE the original story arc for Harley?

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny Mutie View Post
    The, "I want Harley to stay a straight villain and not become an anti-hero" ship sailed a long time ago. In fact, I think it sailed way back when DC made a conscious decision to take her out of the Joker's shadow and keep the two of them separated. She's eventually going to end up like Catwoman; just being fully viewed and accepted as an anti-hero rather than a villain.
    The problem is that Harley's redemption didn't actually change her character.She's the same person as before but the other characters give her a free pass whenever she crosses the line because of she"s 'LOL crazy and randumb'.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The problem is that Harley's redemption didn't actually change her character.She's the same person as before but the other characters give her a free pass whenever she crosses the line because of she"s 'LOL crazy and randumb'.
    Yeah it’s not like Harley has tried to make amends for what she did during her super villain career. We’re just supposed to pretend that Harley was never really that bad and now she’s a hero.

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