X-Men #4 - Global Economics *SPOILERS*

[Huntsman Spider]

That's an interesting take on Hulk. I haven't been reading him, but it is interesting to see that originally, Hulk was very much of an anti-establishment character, almost constantly being hounded by the military and just wanting peace(despite his capacity for destruction). I find his appearances in film went from Ang Lee's strongly anti-military stance, to the Incredible Hulk which showed him teaming up with SHIELD to stop Abomination, to his modern MCU appearances which eschew any serious political/military debate.

I hope that when the X-Men finally make their MCU debut, they aren't completely washed of their anti-establishment leanings(though even though there has been a core of that throughout their post Giant-Sized canon, they also heavily lean into societal norms being comprised of mostly rich white mutants, living in mansions most of the time, using military tech(the SR71 Blackbird), and for the most part, until relatively recently, obeying the standard of human institutions(insofar as not openly upending military/police, government/industrial institutions).)



lol, exactly. It's a shame the boys are getting this meaty treatment under Hickman while the Claremazons are left to Duggan's shenanigans. I would love to see Ororo get the Magneto treatment under Hickman and make some power plays on the global stage(which she actually did under Claremont, especially in his X-Treme/XSE era).

I should mention, just as a point of contention, that Banner/Hulk in The Incredible Hulk movie was teamed up with the U.S. military, not S.H.I.E.L.D. Still, your overall point is a good one, especially given that the U.S. military, as represented by then-General Thunderbolt Ross, was after the Hulk explicitly to weaponize him and Abomination was the result of Ross testing the Captain America formula on a soldier who turned out to be something of a sociopath (he shot a dog just for barking at him) and then dosed himself with Hulk's blood for a power-up when his Super-Soldier-level abilities weren't good enough to keep him from catching the Hulk's hands, basically creating an even worse monster and having to rely on the monster they chased before to deal with that one. Come to think of it, that's a pretty damned good allegory for the overall military-industrial complex.

[yogaflame]

I'm telling you, there's more to this comic book stuff that one might think. Considering Captain America was explicitly commissioned as a piece of military propaganda, I sometimes wonder if all of {classic/60's onward}Marvel isn't some weird MK Ultra program cooked up by the Project Paperclip types after the war.

[pkingdom]

Xavier feels closer to his Ultimate universe counterpart. Not quite at the 'humans are like pets' thinking, but definitely more paternalistic. "We don't hate you. I still love you. We're just better than you and are going to replace you. You should join us." Makes me retch.

I'm sick of Magneto. He and Apocalypse are clearly the characters Hickman has the best grasp on and the clearest voice. But they are utterly insufferable hypocrits. Humans being violent and engaging in wars is an indictment of the entire species. Apocalypse killing millions is a joke.

And the American ambassador has got to be the dumbest moron on the face of the planet. Even if the attack had succeeded, it would have started a war. Frankly, it SHOULD start a war, and I don't even like the Krakheads!

[yogaflame]

I mean, obviously Marvel has to maintain something of a status quo(which is why even a united mutant front containing dozens of high level telepaths, elementals, and reality warpers on top of millions of lower level powers are somehow always fated to lose against humanity) to allow its other IP's to function. Of course the Krakoans should have struck back after the first assassination[of Xavier], let alone this second attempt. But they have to milk this out over some time....

[pkingdom]

That's an interesting take on Hulk. I haven't been reading him, but it is interesting to see that originally, Hulk was very much of an anti-establishment character, almost constantly being hounded by the military and just wanting peace(despite his capacity for destruction). I find his appearances in film went from Ang Lee's strongly anti-military stance, to the Incredible Hulk which showed him teaming up with SHIELD to stop Abomination, to his modern MCU appearances which eschew any serious political/military debate.

I hope that when the X-Men finally make their MCU debut, they aren't completely washed of their anti-establishment leanings(though even though there has been a core of that throughout their post Giant-Sized canon, they also heavily lean into societal norms being comprised of mostly rich white mutants, living in mansions most of the time, using military tech(the SR71 Blackbird), and for the most part, until relatively recently, obeying the standard of human institutions(insofar as not openly upending military/police, government/industrial institutions.

To be blunt, Immortal Hulk is doing a similar kind of story infinitely better. It is the Hulk threatening to go on rampages targeting corporations/governments responsible for the horrible status quo of the world. But the same issue where he announces this, Banner sits down with Amadeus Cho, who has found something like a balance with his Hulk side. Amadeus says, point blank, that Banner need to remember that he is still just another middle-age white guy ranting about what's wrong with the world and who thinks he knows best. Its brutal and honest and something Magneto DESPERATELY needs.

[Vegan Daddy]

Xavier feels closer to his Ultimate universe counterpart. Not quite at the 'humans are like pets' thinking, but definitely more paternalistic. "We don't hate you. I still love you. We're just better than you and are going to replace you. You should join us." Makes me retch.

I'm sick of Magneto. He and Apocalypse are clearly the characters Hickman has the best grasp on and the clearest voice. But they are utterly insufferable hypocrits. Humans being violent and engaging in wars is an indictment of the entire species. Apocalypse killing millions is a joke.

And the American ambassador has got to be the dumbest moron on the face of the planet. Even if the attack had succeeded, it would have started a war. Frankly, it SHOULD start a war, and I don't even like the Krakheads!

I mean the U.S. just drone bombed an Iran general for shits and giggles. It’s not far-fetched.

[jwatson]

I loved Xavier taking off his helmet to look these people in the eye, one trying to kill him and tell them how much he loved them. To tell them how much he still wanted to believe in his dream despite all we know of what he has seen via Moira. Too bad the ambassador had no soul to try to call it off or he would have known he sent men to be maimed.

[pkingdom]

I mean, obviously Marvel has to maintain something of a status quo(which is why even a united mutant front containing dozens of high level telepaths, elementals, and reality warpers on top of millions of lower level powers are somehow always fated to lose against humanity) to allow its other IP's to function. Of course the Krakoans should have struck back after the first assassination[of Xavier], let alone this second attempt. But they have to milk this out over some time....

That's the real reason Krakoa is doomed to failure. Too disruptive to the rest of the Marvel comics line.

I suppose they could feel no need to strike back, given that dying is just a mild inconveniece. That strike force could have killed every mutant there and it wouldn't have mattered.

[yogaflame]

I mean the U.S. just drone bombed an Iran general for shits and giggles. It’s not far-fetched.

Sad, but true.

[rdman]

I love this issue. Thus has to be one of Hickman's well thought out issues. This does set up future conflicts between krakoa and other nation-states who fundamentally feel threatened by Kroakoa's existence. The mutant nation will now have to face not rogue enhanced humans, soul=less sentinels, but now nations such as Wakanda and even Russia and the United States. And it makes sense that even hardened rogue mutants from Gorgon to Apocalypse can align with Xavier and Magneto - great stories to come and cheer the Krokoans!

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Xavier feels closer to his Ultimate universe counterpart. Not quite at the 'humans are like pets' thinking, but definitely more paternalistic. "We don't hate you. I still love you. We're just better than you and are going to replace you. You should join us." Makes me retch.

I'm sick of Magneto. He and Apocalypse are clearly the characters Hickman has the best grasp on and the clearest voice. But they are utterly insufferable hypocrits. Humans being violent and engaging in wars is an indictment of the entire species. Apocalypse killing millions is a joke.

And the American ambassador has got to be the dumbest moron on the face of the planet. Even if the attack had succeeded, it would have started a war. Frankly, it SHOULD start a war, and I don't even like the Krakheads!

I gotta be honest, considering how 're-contextualised' Moira's been, I don't even think that's genuine coming from him. I mean, if one of his most devastating losses in his life was such a lie yet had such a show dedicated to it, why should we believe anything he says? The man is clearly a sociopath who doesn't care who gets hurt so long as he gets his way. Same for Moira, actually.

And I'm hones to god just rooting for Magneto to choke. You're right; his speech was extremely disingenuous and hypocritical considering the narrow lense with which he framed it. Apocalypse is also just...inappropriately hateful. I'm really despising how they're not even being slightly checked on that; like you'd think Charles would step in and say "Gentlemen, please, let's stay on topic" regardless of what he thought. The man was an academic Professor for crying out loud, you'd think he'd have the sense to know when it's important to keep an air of peace.

At this point I wouldn't be shocked if someone just gets so sick of being talked down to they declare war all on their own (And, unfortunately...we have that kind of leader where I am...no, I'm not proud of it. I'm just aware how fucking dangerous it is.)

And the American ambassador. Just...dude. How are you not fired yet? That was the only meaningful commentary I took here; that somehow arseholes like that retain a seat of power. Hell, just look at Magneto and Apocalypse; maybe that's the point of them in some way...though perhaps I'm giving too much credit there?

[king of hybrids]

I loved Xavier taking off his helmet to look these people in the eye, one trying to kill him and tell them how much he loved them. To tell them how much he still wanted to believe in his dream despite all we know of what he has seen via Moira. Too bad the ambassador had no soul to try to call it off or he would have known he sent men to be maimed.

On the other hand, between the revaluation about Moira and the fact that Post-Morrison Xavier’s dream was more about getting the Baseline to peacefully stepping aside into that good night; it’s actually more despicable than Erik or Nur in some respects.

Submission might be the next best thing to peaceful co-existence; but the baselines were as likely to accept that as the mutants are.

[tuck frump]

Magneto speech was splendid tho I can see why having an historically jewish character talk about buying humanity out would raise some eyebrows. The meta commentary was delicious I love Hickman shutting down every detractor talking points even tho theyll ignore it and run with their headcanons.

[jwatson]

On the other hand, between the revaluation about Moira and the fact that Post-Morrison Xavier’s dream was more about getting the Baseline to peacefully stepping aside into that good night; it’s actually more despicable than Erik or Nur in some respects.

Submission might be the next best thing to peaceful co-existence; but the baselines were as likely to accept that as the mutants are.

I'm not sure what you mean. If a mutant never attacks a human and a human never attacks a mutant and they live together in peace. At some point the human race as it is is still going to die out or be overshadowed and become a rarity. It's not something Xavier has any control over.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I'm not sure what you mean. If a mutant never attacks a human and a human never attacks a mutant and they live together in peace. At some point the human race as it is is still going to die out or be overshadowed and become a rarity. It's not something Xavier has any control over.

I think they might be questioning how genuine Xavier's reaction is. Like, considering Moira's retcon into being a mutant meaning she was never truly dead, how genuine have any of Xavier's sentiments ever been; he mourned for her as if she were truly gone while, in the background, they both knew that wasn't the case. Ergo: did he say those things because he meant it or was it just lip-service to sway things in his favour?