X-Men #4 - Global Economics *SPOILERS*

[Zelena]

And how ethical and Xavier's dream prevented the death of thousands of mutants or the destruction of the school? Genosha? Utopia? Sentinels? Operation Zero Tolerance? Purifiers? Have any of these conflicts or villains been avoided without a fight or deaths ?

The X-men are heroes but Krakoa is a nation and every nation is big than individuals. And no nation survives wars without dirtying hands.

I don't think a nation survives without putting in place the means to make peace neither. Otherwise it is caught in an endless war that will drain valuable ressources until nothing remain.
Ethics isn't about being weak. It is standing firm on principles that make the core of your identity, that you will be able to share with your friends, your ennemies and make you someone trustworthy in your alliances and future truces.
Being, like the Japanese would say, honorable.

The X-men have been created by Xavier to be role-models. Are they really at their place in the Krakoan society?

[Glio]

I don't think a nation survives without putting in place the means to make peace neither. Otherwise it is caught in an endless war that will drain valuable ressources until nothing remain.
Ethics isn't about being weak. It is standing firm on principles that make the core of your identity, that you will be able to share with your friends, your ennemies and make you someone trustworthy in your alliances and future truces.
Being, like the Japanese would say, honorable.

The X-men have been created by Xavier to be role-models. Are they really at their place in the Krakoan society?

We could also discuss the ethics of adopting adolescents who have nowhere to go and mold them to be a paramilitary unit and role models, with the full weight of the public image of their species on their shoulders.

[BroHomo]

A nation acting in its own self-interests is fine and all, but when you factor in the whole 'we are the future and will replace you' schtick things change a bit. And its hard to factor in any of the destruction that has happened to mutants like Genosha, Utopia, and the Sentinals because Moira told Xavier about all of it and they both allowed it to happen in order to create the circumstances to create Krakoa. Its not that all that happened and proved Xavier's dream wrong. He never seriously believed in his supposed 'dream'.

Jeeez man pessimistic much?

That's a horrible, hateful stance and I'm not here for it.

I meeean it's the most logical

We all know Mama D is coming back in a big way, and **** is gonna get real uncomfortable on Krakoa.

They might be keeping Destiny as their ace in the hole. When mystique eventually goes off the rails they can throw the D to pacify her

We could also discuss the ethics of adopting adolescents who have nowhere to go and mold them to be a paramilitary unit and role models, with the full weight of the public image of their species on their shoulders.

As opposed tithe kids being killed?

[yogaflame]

Manipulated them how? An entire section of this issue was how genuine Xavier is and transparent abt his objectives and methods he is.

I don't remember him telling the X-Men or Krakoa at large about Moira, that she's still alive, that's she's a mutant with resurrection recall or whatever, or that everything he's doing now, and has done his entire adult life, is based on her intel from her alternate lives.

That's the opposite of transparency.

[yogaflame]

To put all the gold he has stolen from the Nazis?

lol, yep! 101010

[Su_Whisterfield]

Jeeez man pessimistic much?

I meeean it's the most logical

They might be keeping Destiny as their ace in the hole. When mystique eventually goes off the rails they can throw the D to pacify her

As opposed tithe kids being killed?

It’s like waiting foe Old Faithful to erupt, you know she’s gonna blow eventually (well, early February, we have a schedule to keep), the suspense is just where and how.
Bomb is my guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if she’d already rigged the Quiet Council chamber. Most of them are bomb proof anyway, it’d only be an inconvenience.
Or is she going to throw her lot in with Orchis and the humans (you know the mad cow was up to something in that mission on The Forge in Hox 6) in the hope they’ll revive her missus?
Hm, thinking about it, her fecking about on that mission and not unlatching the fourth collar switch on Mother Mode caused at least two of the deaths of the Heroes of Krakoa (Kurt and Logan in completing her mission and, possibly also Scott and Jean’s, as Kurt wasn’t there to, possibly, rescue them). If I was Chuck and Co. I wouldn’t have revived her after that. Nasty bitch.

[king of hybrids]

Is it not possible that Destiny already arranged for Mystique to be notified of the shenanigans sometime between Wolverines and HoX 1; she knows Autumn are trying to play her, hence how that data crystal would up on the Forge?

[Kisinith]

But therein lies the question; considering the ret-con fo Moira being a mutant and how everything they'd ever done was part of a larger plan, how genuine is anything Xavier has ever said in the past or will say in the future?

For example; Xavier indulged in such a massive mourning spiel upon Moira's 'death', which we now know there was no need for. He knew she was still perfectly alive, so why the pretence if not for the manipulation of those around him?

Because of the reason that she went into hiding in the first place. She was becoming too well known and too much a target and if she dies everything gets rebooted. If you get right down to it that's a universe ending threat and keeping it a secret is kind of important. Lastly, these are still all the same characters, including Xavier. He has always been shady as hell, he's always been manipulative and always kept all kind of secrets, frequently with nowhere near as good of a reason as he has here.

I don't remember him telling the X-Men or Krakoa at large about Moira, that she's still alive, that's she's a mutant with resurrection recall or whatever, or that everything he's doing now, and has done his entire adult life, is based on her intel from her alternate lives.

That's the opposite of transparency.

You're not wrong but keeping secret the fact that there is a mutant who will reboot reality when she dies is the kind of state secret I'm ok with them keeping. Its also, to some extent, a separate issue. It informs why he believes what he does but it doesn't change what is he doing or why. That has been a point Moira herself has commented on. That in-spite of everything she's shown him Xavier keeps defaulting back to wanting to embrace humanity.

[pkingdom]

Because of the reason that she went into hiding in the first place. She was becoming too well known and too much a target and if she dies everything gets rebooted. If you get right down to it that's a universe ending threat and keeping it a secret is kind of important. Lastly, these are still all the same characters, including Xavier. He has always been shady as hell, he's always been manipulative and always kept all kind of secrets, frequently with nowhere near as good of a reason as he has here.



You're not wrong but keeping secret the fact that there is a mutant who will reboot reality when she dies is the kind of state secret I'm ok with them keeping. Its also, to some extent, a separate issue. It informs why he believes what he does but it doesn't change what is he doing or why. That has been a point Moira herself has commented on. That in-spite of everything she's shown him Xavier keeps defaulting back to wanting to embrace humanity.

I would say Xavier at least is not the same character. Leaving aside all the complaints of people not sounding like themselves, that retcon explicitly makes Xavier a much, much worse person. We've had reveals and retcons about him lying or concealing things before, but this reveal means he was lying to them for literally the entire time the X comics have been running. He knew the Phoenix Saga was coming. He knew House of X was coming. He knew everything about the Sentinels. He did nothing to stop them. Even if he kept the full extent of Moira's powers a secret, there was so much he could have done, but chose not too.On top of which, he was lying about believing in coexisting with humanity. At best he had serious doubts the entire time.

[Killerbee911]

I don't think a nation survives without putting in place the means to make peace neither. Otherwise it is caught in an endless war that will drain valuable ressources until nothing remain.
Ethics isn't about being weak. It is standing firm on principles that make the core of your identity, that you will be able to share with your friends, your ennemies and make you someone trustworthy in your alliances and future truces.
Being, like the Japanese would say, honorable.

The X-men have been created by Xavier to be role-models. Are they really at their place in the Krakoan society?

Ethics and Laws don't mean anything unless they are actually helping people. Both things can be taken advantage of twisted and stand in the way of actual helping people.The easiest example is that Batman would let Joker live after escaping jail over and over and killing people. Punisher will kill Joker with no hesitation. Batman is more ethical one but Punisher action is one that is actually protecting people.

Ethics and laws doesn't matter if its taken advantage by the bad people and not protecting innocent people.Some times the wrong thing is the only way protect people. Sometimes you have adapt the technique of what is working. Superhero genre is literally built people wearing mask and breaking the law. Going leaving it to "the correct way" isn't working.

What are the X-men teaching by constantly letting mutants being killed off? What is being better and more moral than humans goverments actually doing?

[kevinism]

I would say Xavier at least is not the same character. Leaving aside all the complaints of people not sounding like themselves, that retcon explicitly makes Xavier a much, much worse person. We've had reveals and retcons about him lying or concealing things before, but this reveal means he was lying to them for literally the entire time the X comics have been running. He knew the Phoenix Saga was coming. He knew House of X was coming. He knew everything about the Sentinels. He did nothing to stop them. Even if he kept the full extent of Moira's powers a secret, there was so much he could have done, but chose not too.On top of which, he was lying about believing in coexisting with humanity. At best he had serious doubts the entire time.

None of this is true. We don't know if those things happened in previous lives and if they did, the same way.

[pkingdom]

None of this is true. We don't know if those things happened in previous lives and if they did, the same way.

One of Moira's early lives had a montage of big X moments that also happened in that life. And if none of those things happened, then that means the timelines are so inherently different as to make Moira's knowledge worthless.

[loke13]

I would say Xavier at least is not the same character. Leaving aside all the complaints of people not sounding like themselves, that retcon explicitly makes Xavier a much, much worse person. We've had reveals and retcons about him lying or concealing things before, but this reveal means he was lying to them for literally the entire time the X comics have been running. He knew the Phoenix Saga was coming. He knew House of X was coming. He knew everything about the Sentinels. He did nothing to stop them. Even if he kept the full extent of Moira's powers a secret, there was so much he could have done, but chose not too.On top of which, he was lying about believing in coexisting with humanity. At best he had serious doubts the entire time.

Moira's journals mention that Xavier was in denial for a large portion of the time. That and full recollection of all her past lives was impossible to retain. Which makes sense you try making heads or tails of nine lifetime's worth of memories and in one of those lifetimes you lived for over a thousand years. Information overload. What we do know is that at some point during the canon run Xavier started to believe Moira and trust in her judgment.

[ericng]

I am surprised there are only two bodyguards which is unrealistic in real life. They should send in all the captains for this important meeting.

Who are all the captains?

[Kisinith]

I would say Xavier at least is not the same character. Leaving aside all the complaints of people not sounding like themselves, that retcon explicitly makes Xavier a much, much worse person. We've had reveals and retcons about him lying or concealing things before, but this reveal means he was lying to them for literally the entire time the X comics have been running. He knew the Phoenix Saga was coming. He knew House of X was coming. He knew everything about the Sentinels. He did nothing to stop them. Even if he kept the full extent of Moira's powers a secret, there was so much he could have done, but chose not too.On top of which, he was lying about believing in coexisting with humanity. At best he had serious doubts the entire time.

Thats an interesting interpretation unfortunately its also pure assumption, unsupported by facts and refuted by whats stated on page. Your interpretation that Xavier was lying about coexisting with humanity fails as well because he continues to believe in it now, in-spite of Moira's history and his own assassination. Also in point of fact nothing in Krakoa, now or at any point so far, precludes peaceful human-mutant coexistence. Peacefully coexisting at the national level is still peacefully coexisting.

Screenshot 2020-01-04 21.47.42.jpg

One of Moira's early lives had a montage of big X moments that also happened in that life. And if none of those things happened, then that means the timelines are so inherently different as to make Moira's knowledge worthless.

What happened is the same thing that happens in practically every 'What If?', 'Elseworlds', time travel or alternate timeline story you've ever seen at any point in all of science fiction. Each life-time/timline/dimension is the same up to a point, Moira's birth, at which point she begins effecting and changing it. No life is the same and the changes are often drastic. She's interacting with the same people however and they don't change so there is a lot of commonality. The specifics, the details, the context is all different life to life. So much context is different that any prediction of the future becomes useless the moment Moira started interacting with it.

Your statement about the relative value of Moira's lives and experiences also ignores stated printed context.

Screenshot 2020-01-04 22.10.21.jpg

Destiny told Moira she has 10 lives maybe 11, that means she got 10 tries to get it right, and each of her lives up to this point ended (outside of the 1st) ended badly. She can't endlessly tinker making small changes to find the right mix of actions to prevent genocide. More to the point its not that she had one attempt at Xavier's dream, its that she spent at least 2 lifetimes (possibly 3 as we don't know the events of life VI until thousands of years in the future) trying to achieve Xaviers dream. 1 lifetime trying Magneto's, 1 lifetime hunting down and killing those responsible for creating sentinels, 1 lifetime (a very long lifetime) fighting Apocalypses war.