X-Men #4 - Global Economics *SPOILERS*

[yogaflame]

I am surprised there are only two bodyguards which is unrealistic in real life. They should send in all the captains for this important meeting.

Who are all the captains?

It would have just been Bishop and Magik additionally, and Magik is in space and Lucas running around with Kitty. Cyke and Gorgon had it handled.

[Killerbee911]

I am surprised there are only two bodyguards which is unrealistic in real life. They should send in all the captains for this important meeting.

Who are all the captains?

The amount of bodyguards are fine considering that Apocalypse, Magneto and Xavier can all handle themselves. The only issue imo is something we have seen it seems that X-men/Krakoa does not have a rapid response team. The stuff with Hordeculture, When the Reavers attack the island, or at this meeting points that out. It is weird that Krakoa does not have a group of people who are suppose to be first people on the scene in quick response to danger.

[Veitha]

The amount of bodyguards are fine considering that Apocalypse, Magneto and Xavier can all handle themselves. The only issue imo is something we have seen it seems that X-men/Krakoa does not have a rapid response team. The stuff with Hordeculture, When the Reavers attack the island, or at this meeting points that out. It is weird that Krakoa does not have a group of people who are suppose to be first people on the scene in quick response to danger.

They should definitely have an Exctintion Team kind of deal. Like X-Force but for bigger threats or unknown dangers.

[Killerbee911]

They should definitely have an Exctintion Team kind of deal. Like X-Force but for bigger threats or unknown dangers.

Extinction squad is like a big scenario or nuclear option(which is something they should have) , X-force is about stealth and preemptive actions which is different toolset. They are missing "Swat team/Science team" who would

- Portal opens up to another dimension they are guys who go through
- Aliens land somewhere on the planet they are guys who show up
- One of X-men base get attacked or Xavier and other delegates get attacked , They show up

This is more of a pure reactionary team with something like say Medic, Scientist, Hacker, Telepath and a Long range expert/Sniper, Demolition expert, Scout/ Tracker, Teleporter. A swiss army knife team that quickly respond to situation that can assess the situation from all angles and apply the appropriate response.But this is off topic let me try to stay on topic.

[Glio]

The idea of these X-Men is that Cyclops makes ad hoc teams specifically for each situation. He has an encyclopedic knowledge of the powers and abilities of virtually all mutants. In the next one we will see in which situation for example Luara, Synch and Darwin have gathered.

[Zelena]

Ethics and Laws don't mean anything unless they are actually helping people. Both things can be taken advantage of twisted and stand in the way of actual helping people.The easiest example is that Batman would let Joker live after escaping jail over and over and killing people. Punisher will kill Joker with no hesitation. Batman is more ethical one but Punisher action is one that is actually protecting people.

Ethics and laws doesn't matter if its taken advantage by the bad people and not protecting innocent people.Some times the wrong thing is the only way protect people. Sometimes you have adapt the technique of what is working. Superhero genre is literally built people wearing mask and breaking the law. Going leaving it to "the correct way" isn't working.

What are the X-men teaching by constantly letting mutants being killed off? What is being better and more moral than humans goverments actually doing?

A good action can lead to a wrong? A bad action can lead to a good? That reminds me a fairytale…

But unless we are precogs — or gods — we cannot foresee the future.
Sure if someone is killed, he won't be able to kill anyone. But with this kind of logic, there won't be anyone left on Earth. Because everyone would feel justified to do anything to ensure his safety… even the worst.
Heroes stories are, in my opinion, about the tension between the values, principles a hero holds dear and the reality, the requirements of a situation. On a case by case basis. Without values and principles, he's just a bastard.

I'm not saying that what the X-men have been doing all these years have been very efficient for the 'mutant cause' (they have been saving people though, it shouldn't count for nothing…). But I'm not sure that, in the long run, just saying 'it's like that because I'm the strongest' is a good idea neither… (I don't think that any mutant ever studied politics…)

[People Of The Earth]

(Happy new year to you too, I hope the holidays were amazing!!)

Thankyou for starting this thread and, especially, for putting into words what did especially bother me when I put the book down.

I know I've been most vocal about asking for such specific clarification...which is makes it all the more frustrating in that, I just don't know how to feel about it.

On the one hand, I appreciate the admittance that no, Xavier hasn't been bullied completely out of his dream. It doesn't endear me to the character, still, because the 're-contextualisation' of events really, really prevent me from seeing him as anything other than a sociopathic manipulator (Moira too, but that's it's own discussion), but still. That and seeing Wolverine's reasoning elsewhere is encouraging.

But so far as the attitude taken to address it...it really does feel like dismissal on a meta level. One half patronising, one half tone-deaf. Part of me can't help but think that Hickman just feels 'obligated' to have Charles say that but he, himself doesn't truly believe it. But then...I really do not view Charles' character to be in any way, shape or form genuine considering the horrible light this whole 're-contextualisation' puts him in. I mean, what emotions were ever genuine from him? Moira's death for example; what was meant to be a devastating loss, a shattering of part of his very world was just a lie considering that was just a 'dummy' of sorts (and don't even get me started on how I feel about Moira for it.)

It's Something I didn't dwell much on, for the Reason that Charles Xavier has been dragged into the muds for years now...
What Hickman did with his story is just the latest instance from the muddying of this character to me.
But despite his flaws and corruptions of the heart, the dream he held dear, the dream that pushed him into action in the first place, is still of the noblest kind.
And I truly Believe his anima is still defined by it wholeheartedly, as much as Peter Parker is by the sense of responsibility his uncle instilled in him before he died.
Would that be enough to soften the blow of the Truth spilling out to his X-Men and other allies?
I think it will be for the pragmatists among them, the less scrupulous and more detached souls that are gravitating around Xavier (other Councilmen and women, typically).
I expect the true believers and faithful to feel the sting of betrayal profoundly on the other hand, chief among them Cyclops and Jean. Not that it would be the first time though.

And even then, like you said, it doesn't address the matter of more inter-personal relationships; families effectively separated, whether or not hypothetical humans born on Krakoa are truly 'accepted', ect, ect. It's especially frustrating when you've got such attitudes as Apocalypse and Magneto's going completely unchecked.

Like Apocalypse is just hateful throughout this whole thing and yet, not once does Charles think to mediate it in the interest of diplomacy. I understand needing to show political power, but I don't think that had to come at the expense of manners.

And on that note, where I used to truly empathise with Magneto's position, I am honestly sick of seeing him. He is so, so pompous. On the one hand, yeah, that is a testament to Hickman's grasp of his voice because, yeah, that's Magneto, but on the other...like, everything turns into an argument with this guy. Every little thing that comes out of his mouth is some kind of slight against 'humanity' and how he's happy he's finally free to reject it unchecked.

Ok, yeah, great for you Erik, you got all your dreams ever in a pretty little basket.

Hopefully, those issues will be covered in future DoX issues, even if in passing.
Though we know now, as from this issue, that sapiens cannot, in fact, set foot on Krakoa Mainland aside from special exceptions being made.
How the Kraked will treat future générations of "Squibs" to borrow a term from Harry Potter, is up in the air - hopefully, they'll treat them better than in said HPuniverse …
I agree about the general leniency and passive acceptance of Magneto's or Apocalpyse hateful digs and speeches toward sapiens. Apocalypse's are somewhat more tolerable because he never pretended to be anything but a maniacal darwinist and specist.
Magneto should know better though, having lived among sapiens, fostered alliances with sapien, loved sapien women and even sired a sapien child.
He's a filthy hypocrite.

And it's the long-term implications of that that really, really keep me from enjoying this end of the new direction. I mean, I like seeing how it's handled in Excalibur between Betsy and Pete, but then, it feels more balanced on the whole there. With Hickman it's just...really unpleasant to sit through.

And, as mentioned in your review, that's not even touching upon the hypocrisy being spouted from both Magneto and Apocalypse, historical inaccuracies or otherwise (and by that, of course, I mean how it was only Europe that lost its' history and didn't thrive as well as the rest of the world, not Apocalypse ending the bronze-age.)

I sincerely think it was a mistake/oversight from Hickman...
That, or it wasn't and he purposefully set Magneto up with this example - maybe as a subtil indication that Magneto was as much victim to short-sightedness as the sapiens he critiqued.
No better.
No different.
As for the bolded, I find forced isolation/segregation a poor response in-universe for the X-Men specifically and given their raison d'être, but as long as such a response isn't pushed as THE solution to social issues IRL... I can deal with it - beyond this trempling of what the X-Men used to stand for, that is.

But all in all, yeah, better than previous issues for sure! I gotta give it that! Just still don't love this end of the X-verse, unfortunately.

Hopefully, next issues will be even better reads than this one.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

It's Something I didn't dwell much on, for the Reason that Charles Xavier has been dragged into the muds for years now...
What Hickman did with his story is just the latest instance from the muddying of this character to me.
But despite his flaws and corruptions of the heart, the dream he held dear, the dream that pushed him into action in the first place, is still of the noblest kind.
And I truly Believe his anima is still defined by it wholeheartedly, as much as Peter Parker is by the sense of responsibility his uncle instilled in him before he died.
Would that be enough to soften the blow of the Truth spilling out to his X-Men and other allies?
I think it will be for the pragmatists among them, the less scrupulous and more detached souls that are gravitating around Xavier (other Councilmen and women, typically).
I expect the true believers and faithful to feel the sting of betrayal profoundly on the other hand, chief among them Cyclops and Jean. Not that it would be the first time though.

But, see, that just further weakens the premise for me; the fact that Scott and Jean have been victims to this kind of manipulation before and haven't questioned possibly falling into it again?


[QUOTE=People Of The Earth;4767424Hopefully, those issues will be covered in future DoX issues, even if in passing.
Though we know now, as from this issue, that sapiens cannot, in fact, set foot on Krakoa Mainland aside from special exceptions being made.
How the Kraked will treat future générations of "Squibs" to borrow a term from Harry Potter, is up in the air - hopefully, they'll treat them better than in said HPuniverse …
I agree about the general leniency and passive acceptance of Magneto's or Apocalpyse hateful digs and speeches toward sapiens. Apocalypse's are somewhat more tolerable because he never pretended to be anything but a maniacal darwinist and specist.
Magneto should know better though, having lived among sapiens, fostered alliances with sapien, loved sapien women and even sired a sapien child.
He's a filthy hypocrite. [/QUOTE]

Oh 100% agree with all of that, especially in response to Magneto. In fact, I hope that there is a point where someone does bring up Anya in such a regard to see what happens.

I sincerely think it was a mistake/oversight from Hickman...
That, or it wasn't and he purposefully set Magneto up with this example - maybe as a subtil indication that Magneto was as much victim to short-sightedness as the sapiens he critiqued.
No better.
No different.
As for the bolded, I find forced isolation/segregation a poor response in-universe for the X-Men specifically and given their raison d'être, but as long as such a response isn't pushed as THE solution to social issues IRL... I can deal with it - beyond this trempling of what the X-Men used to stand for, that is.

Ah, see, I...don't actually trust that it was.

Nor do I actually trust Hickman to tout that approach further along the line. The impression that I get both from the interviews he gives and from the tone in his writing isn't one that offers any challenge to his own narrative; I feel like if he did then he'd have set that up far sooner. Especially now, considering Magneto's curt response of how Krakoa is the new normal and people have to just accept it. It doesn't really scream that he wants to invite any debate over it in a meta sense...which is extra frustrating.

But as for the bolded; I'm with you. I truly, truly want that to be the case, but again I just...I don't trust this guy to take it there.

[Confuzzled]

I find it interesting that Hickman chose Magneto as his spokesperson in this conversation: neither the cooperative Xavier, nor the specist Apocalypse.
It drives the point home that Moira's "dream" is driven and supported much more by the philosophies of this man, than those of the two other Councilmen with him, imo.

And beyond him, the writer himself.

I don't know if that's the right interpretation. Erik did say his methods have evolved. It was the perfect mirror to Charles talking about his belief system and how it has evolved without changing on a fundamental level.

Krakoa is essentially Erik and Charles meeting midway in their ideologies, and that's what makes it different from Genosha or Utopia.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I don't know if that's the right interpretation. Erik did say his methods have evolved. It was the perfect mirror to Charles talking about his belief system and how it has evolved without changing on a fundamental level.

Krakoa is essentially Erik and Charles meeting midway in their ideologies, and that's what makes it different from Genosha or Utopia.

I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing that, though, to be honest? It doesn't really feel like they're meeting 'midway'--if anything, Erik seems to have gotten more of his way then Charles has? It doesn't feel quite like a compromise? Like...the only thing Erik can't do is attack people anymore. He's still free, though, to look down his nose at humanity and be as instigative as ever? It's Charles who feels more 'pushed out' in a way?

[spirit2011]

But, see, that just further weakens the premise for me; the fact that Scott and Jean have been victims to this kind of manipulation before and haven't questioned possibly falling into it again?

Abuse victims can fall for it again. That would be interesting to explore again

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Abuse victims can fall for it again. That would be interesting to explore again

Ah now, that is a good point! And very true!

I do hope it's explored and played out that way...I'm just a bit pessimistic though, ya know?

[spirit2011]

Ah now, that is a good point! And very true!

I do hope it's explored and played out that way...I'm just a bit pessimistic though, ya know?

Yes, I know. I have my doubts about it being explored

[Confuzzled]

I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing that, though, to be honest? It doesn't really feel like they're meeting 'midway'--if anything, Erik seems to have gotten more of his way then Charles has? It doesn't feel quite like a compromise? Like...the only thing Erik can't do is attack people anymore. He's still free, though, to look down his nose at humanity and be as instigative as ever? It's Charles who feels more 'pushed out' in a way?

Lol that's a BIG "only thing" TBF.

And Charles spoke the biggest truth in this issue. He was literally assassinated within a month of Krakoa going public! The mutant-destroying Mother Mold was constructed in an even lesser time than that. His pragmatism shown here falls perfectly within the nucleus of reason. He still proclaimed to love humanity and never giving up on it. Anything more than that optimism would fall into dangerous foolishness, not just for him but for his entire people, especially with two SWAT teams closing in on him as he sat and spoke.

[Devaishwarya]

Lol that's a BIG "only thing" TBF.

And Charles spoke the biggest truth in this issue. He was literally assassinated within a month of Krakoa going public! The mutant-destroying Mother Mold was constructed in an even lesser time than that. His pragmatism shown here falls perfectly within the nucleus of reason. He still proclaimed to love humanity and never giving up on it. Anything more than that optimism would fall into dangerous foolishness, not just for him but for his entire people, especially with two SWAT teams closing in on him as he sat and spoke.

Exactatiously!!!
I've always thought that the means of their survival was somewhere in between the two extremes of Xavier's altruistic belief in the goodness of humans and Magneto's outright hostility towards them.
As it reads now...they both seem tempered to a middle ground in how they view humans and their place in the world as mutants.