Victor Stone: Cyborg Appreciation 2020

[Frontier]

I never get tired of seeing Vic's classic design.

Now, I hope they will finally age Beast Boy and Raven up again...

Raven and Beast Boy have been retconned as to having been Titans along with Vic. So they should be older.

I think that was absolutely a huge problem. His connections with the Teen Titans were so important to the character, so just dropping all of that hurt him a great deal. I still think the best route would've been to have Cyborg participate in the Justice League's first battle with Darkseid, then leave to form the Teen Titans during the 5 year time skip after the first Johns/Lee arc, and then return to the League as an adult in the present day.

Honestly I think Johns even intended that, going by interviews he gave around the early New 52.

Because the New 52, despite claims of modernizing the heroes, was clearly heavily inspired by the aesthetics of 90s comics.

And having your design aesthetic be spearheaded by primarily 90's comic book artists.

[Tzigone]

it's more illogical to put someone with no control of their powers on a team that has to handle the most important and dangerous mission in the universe. the Teen Titans, the Titans, they have two functions; a house for sidekicks and a proving ground for young heroes.

Okay, it's plain from this that you and I are never going to agree. That is exactly what the Titans should not be to me. Indeed, I believe treating them like that has deeply damaged the brand and the characters on the team. At their height, their most popular, their best era, it was specifically established they were not a Junior Justice League. Them being treated as such subsequently is just terribly sad to me. It just destroys the entire purpose of the (NTT) team to me.

[Dark Falz]

I see Young Justice as more of a junior Justice League. The Teen Titans are (or at least should be) its own thing.

[Dark Falz]

Actually, having looked over the discussion a bit on the previous page, I see all this type of stuff as a downside of a shared universe. At least what CAN happen with one. This idea of, "Well, these guys are clearly higher tier than those guys over there." It screws with the psychology of the fans and even creators and messes up the storytelling and characters a lot of the time. Ideally, I don't think that a character should necessarily "graduate" from the Titans. I mean, do characters also graduate from The Outsiders? It's just a different team, and not everything should be linked to the Justice League, because things become too homogenized and same-y that way. That thought process also undermines the Titans, and from a storytelling perspective, why would you do that to one of your most famous teams?

[Incognito]

iunno, I like the current origin with the motherbox. I don't think he needs to have his old origin and then upgrade into motherbox tech; something about that progression makes him feel less human to me. I would rather he keep his League origin but just sandwich his history with the Titans between his origin and his time as a full time Leaguer. I like the idea of having the League be the ones to put him on the titans so they can keep an eye on him while he figured out his situation. that's effectively his origin on the Young Justice show, he was just on the team because they needed to figure him out, so it could work.

I like the current origin as well but Cyborg having the Motherbox later as an upgrade would illustrate him as a phone or a computer getting newer and better with new software (abilities) because everyone upgrade their gadgets to the latest ones which I think it is cool and an interesting way to describe the character since he does install new abilities into his cybernetic systems.

[lgcruz]

Exactly. Putting the Titans below the league automatically undermines the entire concept; the whole starting point for the fab 5 was precisely to get away from the shadow of their mentors, which was acheived in the NTT era. This brand domination of the JL over the rest of the universe started out in the 90's with the downfall of wolfman's new titans and the rise of batman and superman ongoings - so editorial went ahead with zero hour: a crisis in time to get rid on any excess plot points from the many justice league books, the legion, jsa, infinity inc and the new titans and pave the way to center everything around morrison's jla (much like extant and the time trapper turned out to be second stringers to hal jordan). By the time of the JLA/Titans crossover and John's teen titans the pendulum was in the league's favour but the titans were still infuential, so once again editorial (now with didio on board) decided to use infinite crisis to take out the titans for good, and thruthfully they haven't recovered since, and wouldn't still be a thing if not for the cartoon's sucess...

As for why? I'm tempted to say because batman isn't there and batman has to be on the top team, but the main business argument (even though it's not true) is that it's better to heavily promote one main book, and sell everything else by brand name association. It also makes it easier for editorial of the shared universe, as instead of having to coordinate two or more team books to make sure storylines match, all it has to do is making sure sure all the books fall in line with the events in justice league. Either way, it's no excuse because you need to look no further than marvel to see that they managed to keep the X-men and the Avengers as equally important teams in a shared universe, despite their brand recognition being rather lopsided at times.

This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with cyborg wanting to join the league, if that's what he wants to do. But putting him on the justice league just to play around with his titans teammates also feels rather pointless. Ideally he would be a bridge between both groups, but that would undermine nightwing, so they never did it.

[Tzigone]

Actually, having looked over the discussion a bit on the previous page, I see all this type of stuff as a downside of a shared universe. At least what CAN happen with one. This idea of, "Well, these guys are clearly higher tier than those guys over there." It screws with the psychology of the fans and even creators and messes up the storytelling and characters a lot of the time. Ideally, I don't think that a character should necessarily "graduate" from the Titans. I mean, do characters also graduate from The Outsiders? It's just a different team, and not everything should be linked to the Justice League, because things become too homogenized and same-y that way. That thought process also undermines the Titans, and from a storytelling perspective, why would you do that to one of your most famous teams?

I definitely think there's room to talk about the downsides of a shared universe. Obviously, can't go back on that now. And there are absolutely upsides, too. But I do find there to be downsides, and I do find is interesting to analyze. I think those downsides are bigger today in the world of long storyarcs and more complex interpersonal narratives than the early 1960s. But the upsides are bigger too. Not really ontopic, I guess, but a fun read.

For Vic, I'd like to see more of him with his BFF Gar. I loved that relationship in the old days. Though now that Gar is grown (or should be) the dynamic could be even more equal an they might have outgrown the insulting nicknames (or maybe not). But I don't want Gar reduced to his supporting character. They should be on equal footing.

I'm amenable enough to advanced nanite tech later. If people want him to be able to look normal, I'm okayish with that. Though we already did the storyline where tech making him look normal (and others treat him as such) made him feel normal. It is kind of a subversion to accepting yourself as you are now. I can see how that'd be unpopular. Look normal = emotional issues resolved can't be topped by how it's played out with Harvey Dent in the past, though. I really do strongly prefer it be divorced from the Motherbox, though.

When is the last time we saw Vic volunteering with the kids with prosthesis? I freely admit I haven't read anything with at all with (former) Titans in long while. I like being here to keep up with what's going on, but there's rarely been enough good-sounding go on long enough (and un-derailed by an event) that I feel like dipping my toe in the water again. Plus I tend to binge read when after the fact when I hear about a good run - I don't have the patience to wait month by month. Just loses momentum for me. Never liked reading novels a chapter a day, either. I like to get the entire story in one or two sittings.

[chief12d]

The X-Men don't face this issue because unlike the Titans they have a sustainable team narrative and dwarfed the Avengers in popularity to such an extent that Marvel couldn't sideline them. They've extrapolated hundreds of stories and characters from the basic, yet very distinct objective of protecting mutantkind.

The Titans' mission statement was more linear in that they were about growing up into the heroes of tomorrow and getting over their traumas/personal hangups. The Titans are in their 20s now and no one can question their competence or heroic natures, but as a concept they haven't evolved in a substantial way to produce new stories. They haven't found themselves a new niche, which it helps to have as a team when your roster is composed of a acrobatic martial artist, a cybernetic New Godling, a half-demon sorceress, an alien warrior-princess, and a shapeshifting social media star.

What keeps these characters in each other's orbit than having grown up together? Everyone knows what the JLD, Outsiders, Legion, and of course Justice League are about. They have well-defined roles and purposes. People say they don't want the Titans to be treated as less than by the League (which I agree with) but what do they want the team to be if not just heroes who do what the League does but with less popular characters?

The only other niche that worked for the Titans was taking the Young Justice kids under their wings and basically becoming mentors to another generation that can never reach their full potential. So I don't like this idea of "graduation" but DC and its fans have to critically think about what they want the Titans IP to be rather than getting worked up about words to describe a franchise that has been in creative hell for years.

[chief12d]

I definitely think there's room to talk about the downsides of a shared universe. Obviously, can't go back on that now. And there are absolutely upsides, too. But I do find there to be downsides, and I do find is interesting to analyze. I think those downsides are bigger today in the world of long storyarcs and more complex interpersonal narratives than the early 1960s. But the upsides are bigger too. Not really ontopic, I guess, but a fun read.

For Vic, I'd like to see more of him with his BFF Gar. I loved that relationship in the old days. Though now that Gar is grown (or should be) the dynamic could be even more equal an they might have outgrown the insulting nicknames (or maybe not). But I don't want Gar reduced to his supporting character. They should be on equal footing.

I'm amenable enough to advanced nanite tech later. If people want him to be able to look normal, I'm okayish with that. Though we already did the storyline where tech making him look normal (and others treat him as such) made him feel normal. It is kind of a subversion to accepting yourself as you are now. I can see how that'd be unpopular. Look normal = emotional issues resolved can't be topped by how it's played out with Harvey Dent in the past, though. I really do strongly prefer it be divorced from the Motherbox, though.

When is the last time we saw Vic volunteering with the kids with prosthesis? I freely admit I haven't read anything with at all with (former) Titans in long while. I like being here to keep up with what's going on, but there's rarely been enough good-sounding go on long enough (and un-derailed by an event) that I feel like dipping my toe in the water again. Plus I tend to binge read when after the fact when I hear about a good run - I don't have the patience to wait month by month. Just loses momentum for me. Never liked reading novels a chapter a day, either. I like to get the entire story in one or two sittings.

I agree mostly about Gar. Since it seems pretty obvious that in the not so distant future Vic will be back with the Titans, my hope is that DC really highlights his bromance with Beast Boy. As you said, it seems Gar's been aged up so maybe now they can go back to hanging out and joking around.

However, if Vic ever got a solo book again, I think Gar would almost have to appear in a supporting capacity, not in a subordinate or sidekick type of role though. More like a team up of co-equals with one of them getting more spotlight because it's his book. Kinda like the Atom in the Hawkman solo.

As far as the Mother Box, I'd be open to keeping it as long as it's made explicitly clear it's not the sole source of Vic's power. I think the animated JL film did the best job of showing that Vic isn't just a dude with a Mother Box, but instead a hybrid of human nanotech and alien godtech, hence his vast potential. I think the Box is such an identifiable part of his powers now it doesn't hurt to keep it even if the true potential of it wasn't really explored. I like the fact he's a powerhouse now and it also helps justify (but isn't necessary to explain) why he has a more streamlined appearance. I'm still in favor of Vic showing more skin, wearing regular clothes, downsizing the faceplate to just the eye, and being at peace with himself.

[Tzigone]

I like the fact he's a powerhouse now

Yeah, it's popular. I'm just not a fan of the powerups. I'd keep Superman at move-mountains-not-planets (and lesser, honestly, if the so very powerful one wasn't so ingrained these days). Don't like Raven having all the magic. Don't like the speedsters having speed thievery, scouts, or eletrokinesis. I prefer GL with a vulnerability to yellow. I'm just a weirdo. I like the heroes powerful, of course, but don't think they need to keep adding more. Whatever level I started reading them at - that's enough (yes, I have my own biases). I don't like them so powerful the only way to threaten them is to threaten the world (or even just the city).

[lgcruz]

The NTT was far more popular than anything else in DC when it got going, and arguably kept it from bankrupcy. But while jim shooter kept a balance in marvel, DC deliberatly used the NTT creative team to inject life into their traditional main books through COIE, sacrificing it in the process.

The teen titan main premise is nothing that complicated; the teen titans are about young heroes finding their footing together and becoming heroes in their own right, compared to young justice which is about a group of heroes coping with the expectations of their mentors, or infinity inc which is about keeping old heroic ideals alive, or legion of superheroes which is to work together to change things for a better future. It's this context that makes terra dying without being able to become a hero so particularly tragic, just to make an example.

Thus Titans should be about grown up heroes that call for the help of their friends when they need a particular set of skills or simply for fun. Helping younger heroes to go from teen titans to titans or something else is only natural, given the premise. The only reason they are in creative hell is because editorial absolutely refuses the idea of their characters growing beyond their assigned role, so it invalides their reason of being at every turn by retconning any progress. So long as editorial keeps it that way, the only niche they have left is basically what they do in teen titans go - bunch of friends having fun together.

[Ascended]

The Titans' mission statement was more linear in that they were about growing up into the heroes of tomorrow and getting over their traumas/personal hangups. The Titans are in their 20s now and no one can question their competence or heroic natures, but as a concept they haven't evolved in a substantial way to produce new stories. They haven't found themselves a new niche.

What keeps these characters in each other's orbit than having grown up together?

The only other niche that worked for the Titans was taking the Young Justice kids under their wings and basically becoming mentors to another generation that can never reach their full potential. So I don't like this idea of "graduation" but DC and its fans have to critically think about what they want the Titans IP to be rather than getting worked up about words to describe a franchise that has been in creative hell for years.

Couldn't agree more.

But I don't even really like the "mentor" thing, despite the fact that Johns and Young Justice (show) have both made it work beautifully. The JSA seems better suited for that, and it means the Titans are basically stuck training the next Justice League, the next "world's greatest heroes," without ever getting the credit due them. Real world mentors and teachers get sh*t on and shoved to the side and I don't want to see some of my favorite heroes follow suit. Or....continue to see it, I guess. :/

But what purpose/niche you give them....that's the twenty year question, right? Like I said a few pages back, I think the solution to the Titans is to look at them individually, imagine where their character arcs have (and should have) taken them, and see where they land. The NTT was college, now they're hot shot young professionals who've gotten adulthood figured out, but haven't gotten complacent yet. See what that looks like, then you can see if there's a good reason for them to remain together. Because until you showcase that these guys have grown up the book cannot succeed. They'll just look like a bunch of lazy millennials who peaked in high school.

Honestly I don't even want them all back together. Stop trying to make the Titans brand two different things. Just let the kids have the name and let the adults move on to other stuff. Keep the relationships and dynamics, do a team-up when you like, have them get together during Crisis events, but for gods sake let them move out of the frat house.

[Tzigone]

For me the Titans needs to be the team that is a team. Moreso than the Justice League, I mean. The League is a bunch of solo heroes who team up part time. The Titans are a team where each member occasionally takes solo work. They all live in the same city, etc. Which means, of course, that some will move away and leave the team. Others may stay, because they don't care to work solo, this is where their home is anyway, etc. But it should always been a team that generally regards its members as equals and heroes, not separated into heroes-in-training and trainers. Just having them answer to senior heroes (even on their own team) is too much against the premise of the team for me. Once you've made it onto this team, you're a peer, you've already earned your stripes, as it were.

[chief12d]

Couldn't agree more.

But I don't even really like the "mentor" thing, despite the fact that Johns and Young Justice (show) have both made it work beautifully. The JSA seems better suited for that, and it means the Titans are basically stuck training the next Justice League, the next "world's greatest heroes," without ever getting the credit due them. Real world mentors and teachers get sh*t on and shoved to the side and I don't want to see some of my favorite heroes follow suit. Or....continue to see it, I guess. :/

But what purpose/niche you give them....that's the twenty year question, right? Like I said a few pages back, I think the solution to the Titans is to look at them individually, imagine where their character arcs have (and should have) taken them, and see where they land. The NTT was college, now they're hot shot young professionals who've gotten adulthood figured out, but haven't gotten complacent yet. See what that looks like, then you can see if there's a good reason for them to remain together. Because until you showcase that these guys have grown up the book cannot succeed. They'll just look like a bunch of lazy millennials who peaked in high school.

Honestly I don't even want them all back together. Stop trying to make the Titans brand two different things. Just let the kids have the name and let the adults move on to other stuff. Keep the relationships and dynamics, do a team-up when you like, have them get together during Crisis events, but for gods sake let them move out of the frat house.

I didn't like them being forced into the mentor role either for similar reasons. I don't like the idea that characters who are technically in their prime get forced into the role of mentorship, unless the focus continues to be on them for the most part, which rarely happens. But it is the niche that's worked best for them so far so it's a valid direction to return to.

Yup, having them organically grow into the heroes they are today is great but now there needs to be something binding such a diverse team together other than "friendship" and "family". These things alone don't produce good stories. The Titans like their counterpart the X-Men, should be reinventing themselves with new premises and status quos.

But I don't know what they can do other than follow the Young Justice model of being a more stealth-oriented team, stealing the niche of the Outsiders. The League could be focused on the big scale multiversal and cosmic stuff while the Titans, highly trained and with their own substantial resources, take on stuff that goes under the radar, acting as a semi-public superteam that could rival their mentors'.

But that's stretching it and something that works in theory but is hard to make work in-universe. If Starfire has reached her peak, she should be thwarting Gordanian invasions by her damn self. So you have the logical question of why she's on a team where Psimon is the type of threat they're facing.

These types of inconsistencies is why I'm also fine with shifting the Titans onto other teams, where they can flourish in corners of the DCU where they logically make sense. Cyborg and Starfire on JLO or some equivalent, Raven and Aqualad on JLD, Gar on Doom Patrol, Donna as co-lead of Sensation Comics, etc. But realistically, DC knows they can continue to make money off the nostalgia fans have when these characters are together so they'll never truly break them up long-term. So maybe the superpowered espionage route is a direction they'd benefit from.

[Dark Falz]

One of the big reasons the Titans are in a creative slump is because Dan DiDio was the head of DC for like 15 years or something like that, and he clearly never liked the idea of those characters. It sounds pretty simple, but there you have it. Get talented people who like the characters and let them cut loose and you might see things improve with that IP.