Victor Stone: Cyborg Appreciation 2020

[Ascended]

But that's stretching it and something that works in theory but is hard to make work in-universe. If Starfire has reached her peak, she should be thwarting Gordanian invasions by her damn self. So you have the logical question of why she's on a team where Psimon is the type of threat they're facing.

lol did you read my post in the "pitch a direction: Starfire" thread? Because that's something I talked about.

These types of inconsistencies is why I'm also fine with shifting the Titans onto other teams, where they can flourish in corners of the DCU where they logically make sense.

You're right that the Titans brand still carries *some* weight behind it, but if memory serves me right the teens tend to out-sell the NTT reunions, and neither book tends to be more than a mid-level seller, so while the Titans brand has plenty of pedigree, it doesn't really churn out much in the way of actual profit (not without a high end creator like Johns). Not in the direct market anyway, in larger media I think the Titans are likely DC's most successful brand....but they're using the "teen" version, with a Robin front and center and everyone figuring out how to adult.

It'd be better for everyone to let go of the nostalgia, and let the adults move on. And who knows? After a few years of these characters actually getting to evolve and grow, maybe someone would find a quality reason to get them back together that would be more than a disappointing trip down nostalgia lane.

[lgcruz]

The thing that made the new teen titans so interesting was that each member of the team had it's own area of specialty it could then involve the rest of the team.

Wolfman and Perez wanted a story with exotic alien species or worlds? Have Starfire on focus.

Some divine beings decided to exert their influence on mortals? Wondergirl is on the job.

Demonic or mystical beings wish to consume minds and souls to their advantage? Not when raven is around.

A secret organisation conspires against the safety of the citizens? Nightwing hunts them down.

Do you find it hard to keep up with the changes with the world you live in? So does Kid flash

Can you grow to overcome your past enemies and suffering? Changeling keeps trying.

So the main draw of the teen titans was that by picking the team members carefully, you can have many kinds of stories to tell, and with contrasting personalities to match. Its my opinion that not undertanding this and forming hand picked teams for a specific job or leader is the reason the atoms' or damians' team didn't work,

But the point is, while this applies to the teen titans, this also applies to the titans... with one core diference: You dont actually need them together in a titans tower to make it work, you can start with one main titan and have him call over the titan he would most likely need help from. If you think about it, this was already done in season 5 of the teen titans cartoon, since the main cast was often on their own in different locations, and had to work with local titans to win the day.

In Cyborg's case he tended to be the focus whenever there is some mad science going on. You can make stories with him about trying to stop unethical human experimentation, development of dangerous weaponry, preventing experiments from progressing beyond control, corporate usage of technology to subvert human will, etc. Really in this day and age, there's no shortage of themes to explore.

To make an example, imagine that Cyborg hears through his star labs contacts that someone, somewhere is developing a event horizon machine to draw free power for humanity, so he goes there to investigate and finds out it might be a portal to hell, so he calls on Raven, Hotspot and Wally since he doesnt have doomguys number and can't prevent the experiment from being carried out. Or maybe Tempest calls him in alongside Beast boy and Blue Beetle because apparently there is an alien tecno-organic symbiotic organism bonding with the worlds cetaceans and turning them into deadly weapons of mass destruction. I could go on, but you get the idea.

Again, the inherent premise and status quo was never the problem with cyborg and other grown up titans. The only real problem they have is that they are not allowed to deliver on that very premise, either by the creatives or editorial.

[Ascended]

If the NTT have to remain together, then the "Titans Army" approach seems the best way to accomplish it. Use everyone, any Titan, any 20-something hero. Make the Titans a highly connected global network of dozens/hundreds of local agents, capable of sharing information and deploying their efforts and resources strategically. A superhero movement, of sorts, to balance the League's "old school elitist." That would provide the unique niche they need in the shared universe, keeps the NTT together by default without completely sacrificing their independence, and the giant roster lets you tell any story you want. Treat it like McDuffy's JLU cartoon; toss one or two of the O5/NTT in each issue along with some random 20-something hero, and go nuts. Kori's empire is under attack by Almerac, as queen she's requesting aid. Vibe got lost in Vic's digitalverse, so Vic and Bart have to find him. The Reach are going to infest earth, and Beetle needs some extra New Godling muscle to beat their asses down so he asks Vic for help. Whatever.

But that is far removed from the redux reunions DC keeps offering, where they do nothing more than fight the same people they fought at 16, with barely any change in plot or characterization. Utter opposite of the character development that helped make the book so damn successful in the first place.

[chief12d]

One of the big reasons the Titans are in a creative slump is because Dan DiDio was the head of DC for like 15 years or something like that, and he clearly never liked the idea of those characters. It sounds pretty simple, but there you have it. Get talented people who like the characters and let them cut loose and you might see things improve with that IP.

That's really all DC can do at this point, isn't it? But I'm not sure that DC has anyone with the vastness of vision needed to actually revamp the Titans franchise. If I had to guess, I think once Hickman is done with his X-Men saga in 2 years or so, he'll migrate over to DC and inject some life into the Titans. I say this as someone who thinks he's overrated, but he does bring the type of new ideas and character interactions that could result in some great stories.

lol did you read my post in the "pitch a direction: Starfire" thread? Because that's something I talked about.



You're right that the Titans brand still carries *some* weight behind it, but if memory serves me right the teens tend to out-sell the NTT reunions, and neither book tends to be more than a mid-level seller, so while the Titans brand has plenty of pedigree, it doesn't really churn out much in the way of actual profit (not without a high end creator like Johns). Not in the direct market anyway, in larger media I think the Titans are likely DC's most successful brand....but they're using the "teen" version, with a Robin front and center and everyone figuring out how to adult.

It'd be better for everyone to let go of the nostalgia, and let the adults move on. And who knows? After a few years of these characters actually getting to evolve and grow, maybe someone would find a quality reason to get them back together that would be more than a disappointing trip down nostalgia lane.

I did actually, that pitch was pretty great lol. It perfectly illustrates the level that all the Titans should be operating at by now.

I can't speak to how well the Titans book performs specifically, but I think their kept around with the rosters that they are precisely because of cohesion with other mediums (animation and live action). Them being middling sellers is also a factor, as NTT reunions are a safe bet on the direct market. After all, that's just another book that can go a dozen or two issues without falling below the cancellation threshold. There's no pressure to do anything spectacular with them because they'll sell regardless and for creators it may be less risky than integrating individual members into other teams in the DCU.

Letting the franchise rest for 2-3 years while you distribute these B-listers to other properties seems like a smart choice. I'm sure if they added Raven and Garth to a JLD team the book would have at least slightly stronger sales. Cy and Star on a revamped JLO with the Hawks, Adam Strange, and Jessica Cruz will probably sell better than the roster we ended up with in the later issues. But that requires DC to think about more than nostalgia and we know how infrequently that happens.

[Ascended]

Letting the franchise rest for 2-3 years while you distribute these B-listers to other properties seems like a smart choice. I'm sure if they added Raven and Garth to a JLD team the book would have at least slightly stronger sales. Cy and Star on a revamped JLO with the Hawks, Adam Strange, and Jessica Cruz will probably sell better than the roster we ended up with in the later issues. But that requires DC to think about more than nostalgia and we know how infrequently that happens.

I think you're right, and it's also more effort and investment put in. It must be pretty easy to toss out a NTT reunion, where you know it'll stay above water for twelve-eighteen issues with minimal effort, and you can buy yourself some time to work on other stuff. Making the Titans relevant requires actual work and effort.

But I'm with you; I don't want these guys back together. Let's broaden our horizons and try some new things.

[Incognito]

If the NTT have to remain together, then the "Titans Army" approach seems the best way to accomplish it. Use everyone, any Titan, any 20-something hero. Make the Titans a highly connected global network of dozens/hundreds of local agents, capable of sharing information and deploying their efforts and resources strategically. A superhero movement, of sorts, to balance the League's "old school elitist." That would provide the unique niche they need in the shared universe, keeps the NTT together by default without completely sacrificing their independence, and the giant roster lets you tell any story you want. Treat it like McDuffy's JLU cartoon; toss one or two of the O5/NTT in each issue along with some random 20-something hero, and go nuts. Kori's empire is under attack by Almerac, as queen she's requesting aid. Vibe got lost in Vic's digitalverse, so Vic and Bart have to find him. The Reach are going to infest earth, and Beetle needs some extra New Godling muscle to beat their asses down so he asks Vic for help. Whatever.

But that is far removed from the redux reunions DC keeps offering, where they do nothing more than fight the same people they fought at 16, with barely any change in plot or characterization. Utter opposite of the character development that helped make the book so damn successful in the first place.

The 'Titans Army' pitch I could see it as a big anthology book with an assorted mix of titans working together sort of like their 'Brave and The Bold' series.

The idea sounds cool for the Titans it makes them more effective than the Justice League because of their proactive methods and connections to each other it shows the differences between the Titans and the Justice League where the former who are more than friends but a family with a working relationship opposes to the latter who are friends but tends to operate more as co-workers.

I think you're right, and it's also more effort and investment put in. It must be pretty easy to toss out a NTT reunion, where you know it'll stay above water for twelve-eighteen issues with minimal effort, and you can buy yourself some time to work on other stuff. Making the Titans relevant requires actual work and effort.

But I'm with you; I don't want these guys back together. Let's broaden our horizons and try some new things.

Hey Ascended, I remember all your pitches for the Titans (Starfire, Cyborg, Raven, etc.) and that you wanted all the NTT to leave from the Titans. Do you think Damian's generation of titans should fully helm the brand or would you rather have it be retired for a while?

[Ascended]

Hey Ascended, I remember all your pitches for the Titans (Starfire, Cyborg, Raven, etc.) and that you wanted all the NTT to leave from the Titans. Do you think Damian's generation of titans should fully helm the brand or would you rather have it be retired for a while?

I don't think it would hurt the brand at all if DC put it on the shelf for a little while, but I don't think a hiatus would help very much either; DC has done this before and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. The Titans still manage to be mid-level sellers too, so I don't think the brand is at the point where it stinks so bad it *has* to be sidelined.

What I think the brand needs is a clear, tight vision for the future and a strong sense of identity. The Titans can't thrive just by rehashing the same old plots of betrayal, Deathstroke, and Brother Blood from the glory days. And it can't thrive when it's trying to represent two very different groups. The brand identity for the Titans is a f*cking disaster and that needs to be the first thing DC tackles; they need to decide if the Titans are a specific group of adults or if it's the team young heroes join to learn the ropes. Then they need to decide what kind of team and narrative they're going to use that speaks to the intended audience of today, not 1985.

If I had my way, I'd have the NTT leave the name behind and let the Titans brand represent the teen heroes only. The adult heroes can continue to move away from the brand and do their own thing, joining different teams, going solo, whatever is appropriate and realistic for the individual characters. I think it'd be best for each character to stand apart from the others, at least in the foreseeable future, to help each build an identity unto themselves, but I'm not *totally* against the idea of them remaining a team as long as that team has a new name and a mission statement that is clearly different from what they had as Titans, and the narratives/themes/etc aren't just rehashing Wolfman.

As for the kids and their new sole ownership of the Titans IP.....you stick to the core "young heroes coming of age" premise but you actively avoid telling the same stories as Wolfman did, and you don't use the same villains. In this, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, you just have to stop covering Wolfman's greatest hits like a bad cover band. I'd use a roster that mixes familiar Titans names like Robin and Kid Flash with less expected characters who offer a wide range of subgenres (which is nothing new). But unlike Wolfman, who created brand new characters like Vic and Kori, or Glass who created Crush and Roundhouse, I'd use established characters who don't get much attention. The market isn't too friendly to new characters right now so using familiar-but-unused guys is a safer bet more likely to garner support and interest.

One of the key points here though, is finding characters who bring new subgenres to the table. That, I think, is crucial to making the Titans successful today. Wolfman gave us magic and alien sci-fi with Raven and Kori, Glass did the same with Jinn and Crush, and I'd look for different subgenres like "time travel" or "multiverse" or "pulp" or whatever. Subgenres we haven't seen the Titans tackle constantly for thirty years. Someone like Naomi seems a perfect fit; a character with low mileage but a great first showing, who brings a subgenre to the table that hasn't been extensively covered already by classic runs. That opens up story possibilities we're not as used to seeing from the Titans while maintaining narrative range. The basic structure that Wolfman used is fine and worth sticking with, but DC needs to stop *copying* it.

[Iconic]

Vic’s history with the New Teen Titans is now “restored”. Now what?

How does this elevate Cyborg?

Does this make him one of your favorite characters now?

Will you start supporting a title for him?

Is it worth it to post in this thread now that they’ve “fixed” him?

[Frontier]

Vic’s history with the New Teen Titans is now “restored”. Now what?

How does this elevate Cyborg?

Does this make him one of your favorite characters now?

Will you start supporting a title for him?

Is it worth it to post in this thread now that they’ve “fixed” him?

He feels like a more fully-formed character to me now but I think your standpoint on it probably depends on your opinion of the character and his history to begin with.

[Tzigone]

Vic’s history with the New Teen Titans is now “restored”. Now what?

How does this elevate Cyborg?

I don't know that it "elevates" him, but then I don't know what you mean by the term. It makes him more interesting to me because he has the personal connections (and at least some of the history) that made me like him the first place. He has his history back, and that means everything I read when I liked him first isn't erased. It feels at least a bit more like the same character, gives me a point of connection. It also gives him back his strong personal bonds and shared history with some of his old teammates. Or should, we'll have to see how it plays out. That matters a lot to me.

Does this make him one of your favorite characters now?

No, but again, much better than Cyborg without his history. That's like a Dick Grayson who was never Robin. Hardly seems like the same character.

Will you start supporting a title for him?

If they can come up with good stories that aren't repeating man v. machine. I'd certainly check out the title if I heard good things about it (and I mean from people who value the same things in the character I do), which is more than I can say I would have done before he had his history back.

[Ascended]

Vic’s history with the New Teen Titans is now “restored”. Now what?

How does this elevate Cyborg?

Elevate? No, that would imply DC is trying to raise his profile and make him more well known and profitable. But this makes him a better, more well rounded character with a deeper history, list of relationships, etc.

Does this make him one of your favorite characters now?

He already was. Largely due to the development and personality he has in various larger media adaptations.

Will you start supporting a title for him?

I already do.

[Incognito]

What I think the brand needs is a clear, tight vision for the future and a strong sense of identity. The Titans can't thrive just by rehashing the same old plots of betrayal, Deathstroke, and Brother Blood from the glory days. And it can't thrive when it's trying to represent two very different groups. The brand identity for the Titans is a f*cking disaster and that needs to be the first thing DC tackles; they need to decide if the Titans are a specific group of adults or if it's the team young heroes join to learn the ropes. Then they need to decide what kind of team and narrative they're going to use that speaks to the intended audience of today, not 1985.

I think what the Titans needs are new villains since Deathstroke is barely in Titans and now either have his series or is in the Batman brand he pretty much moved on from the Titans he is pretty much a DC Universe villain/sometimes anti-hero. Backfire is now more or less an antagonist rather than a full blown villain to Starfire, Fearsome Five could work well as Cyborg's Rogues than being punching bags for the Titans. Trigon and Brother Blood (and the Church of Blood) could both work as Justice League Dark villains, the former could work as a DC Universe villain.

If I had my way, I'd have the NTT leave the name behind and let the Titans brand represent the teen heroes only. The adult heroes can continue to move away from the brand and do their own thing, joining different teams, going solo, whatever is appropriate and realistic for the individual characters. I think it'd be best for each character to stand apart from the others, at least in the foreseeable future, to help each build an identity unto themselves, but I'm not *totally* against the idea of them remaining a team as long as that team has a new name and a mission statement that is clearly different from what they had as Titans, and the narratives/themes/etc aren't just rehashing Wolfman.

I would not mind to see them split up and go to their separate paths could do wonders for them. I am a fan of the NTT and would like to see a reunion but the NTT doing their own things would not be a bad idea unless it is not a repeat draft of their last stories. Cyborg and Starfire having interstellar adventures in JLO, Raven and Tempest exploring the supernatural and the occult in JLD, Nightwing and Wally West can patrol in Bludhaven and Keystone City (or having multiversal adventures) respectively. Donna Troy in a WW secondary book (Sensational Comics) and Beast Boy/Changeling in Doom Patrol or with him as a mentor in TT.

As for the kids and their new sole ownership of the Titans IP.....you stick to the core "young heroes coming of age" premise but you actively avoid telling the same stories as Wolfman did, and you don't use the same villains. In this, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, you just have to stop covering Wolfman's greatest hits like a bad cover band. I'd use a roster that mixes familiar Titans names like Robin and Kid Flash with less expected characters who offer a wide range of subgenres (which is nothing new). But unlike Wolfman, who created brand new characters like Vic and Kori, or Glass who created Crush and Roundhouse, I'd use established characters who don't get much attention. The market isn't too friendly to new characters right now so using familiar-but-unused guys is a safer bet more likely to garner support and interest.

Using established characters who don't get much attention could work for the Titans Brand although I would not like to see any characters from Dick and Tim's generation joining the Titans. Maybe young characters that recently debuted could be part of the TT like Sideways and Darla Dudley. At this point I would even take Bunker and Tanya Spears even though they were part of Tim's titans but they were recent creations of the New 52 just like Wallace and Emiko until they were suddenly forgotten. I got a list of characters who could fit and join the latest generation of the Titans Brand.

One of the key points here though, is finding characters who bring new subgenres to the table. That, I think, is crucial to making the Titans successful today. Wolfman gave us magic and alien sci-fi with Raven and Kori, Glass did the same with Jinn and Crush, and I'd look for different subgenres like "time travel" or "multiverse" or "pulp" or whatever. Subgenres we haven't seen the Titans tackle constantly for thirty years. Someone like Naomi seems a perfect fit; a character with low mileage but a great first showing, who brings a subgenre to the table that hasn't been extensively covered already by classic runs. That opens up story possibilities we're not as used to seeing from the Titans while maintaining narrative range. The basic structure that Wolfman used is fine and worth sticking with, but DC needs to stop *copying* it.

Yeah, I would like to see new stories with the Titans and not the same old format like making Roundhouse a 'traitor' just like with Terra in Judas Contract or another Trigon invading earth again. I have not read Naomi but from what I have heard she is a good character and her story was said to be good so I would not mind to see her in the TT she is a recent character and probably not too far from Robin and Kid Flash, I also would like to see characters such as Beacon, Teen Lantern (I think she was 13 or 14 IIRC), Animal Girl or Sideways.

[Ascended]

Using established characters who don't get much attention could work for the Titans Brand although I would not like to see any characters from Dick and Tim's generation joining the Titans.

As long as they're not the *same age* as Dick and the NTT I don't care if they worked on the same team. Like, Argent is roughly the same age as Tim (maybe a couple years older) so she could still probably fit the *Teen* Titans, but she's still been on a team with Dick and Kori, etc.

Hell, at this point pretty much every hero between the ages of ten and thirty have been on a team with Dick, Vic, Kori, and the rest. As long as the roster is the right age, that's all that really matters.

[9th.]

lol did you read my post in the "pitch a direction: Starfire" thread? Because that's something I talked about.



You're right that the Titans brand still carries *some* weight behind it, but if memory serves me right the teens tend to out-sell the NTT reunions, and neither book tends to be more than a mid-level seller, so while the Titans brand has plenty of pedigree, it doesn't really churn out much in the way of actual profit (not without a high end creator like Johns). Not in the direct market anyway, in larger media I think the Titans are likely DC's most successful brand....but they're using the "teen" version, with a Robin front and center and everyone figuring out how to adult.

It'd be better for everyone to let go of the nostalgia, and let the adults move on. And who knows? After a few years of these characters actually getting to evolve and grow, maybe someone would find a quality reason to get them back together that would be more than a disappointing trip down nostalgia lane.

I've came to same conclusion recently, the older Titans need to branch out and move on from the brand. Until an innovative idea has been presented those characters need to be in other titles, leave the title to the young ones. This also applies to the villains.

[Incognito]

Ever since the announcement of Future State and with all the members of the JL have sidekicks. I was thinking should Cyborg have a sidekick as well someone he could take under his wing?