Victor Stone: Cyborg Appreciation 2020

[Vordan]

What exactly has joining the JL done for Cyborg besides making him plot devices for various stories and the team's chauffeur? Since 2011 Cyborg hasn't done anything remotely interesting or beneficial. He's still at the same position he was in since he joined. Even him joining the Doom Patrol is leaving more of an impact. Hell people want him interacting with cast of Titans and possibly joining them.

In the comic books? Nothing, I agree they totally have wasted him. In outside media though, it’s elevated his standing and it’s caused him to be featured more and more prominently. Plus have you seen how DC treats the Titans? What on Earth makes you think Cyborg would benefit from rejoining them? The recent Titans comics have been mediocre dreck that spun around in circles going nowhere. Dick got shot in the head and became Ric. Wally got Dido’d with HiC. Donna remains the complete mess she’s been since CoIE. Beast Boy and Raven have gotten zip to do. Starfire has ditched the Titans to join the JL as well, and I haven’t heard much about her and Vic interacting. Like what specific kind of interactions do you see Vic getting that would benefit him? Because just calling back to the NTT isn’t going to do squat, it didn’t help Wally or Dick for example.

And even on the Titans, Cyborg doesn’t get the same focus as Nightwing, Starfire, and Raven get.

[BradleyFan]

That would pretty much be their admission that they botched his JL push and now because they don't know what to do with him anymore, they need to send him back to the smaller leagues because he works better with them. Quite pathetic if that's the case. And not the kind of optics they need since Cyborg is still a popular character. But if that's really the case, they gotta do what they gotta do I guess.

What's even worse is that DC HAD interesting concepts with Cyborg that they could've built upon. David Walker pretty much handed him a classic Cyberpunk concept with alternate dystopian universes. The TechnoSapiens and The TechBreakers.
Sempter took Detroit and turned it into Cyborg's own personal Gotham City or Metropolis. Walker updated Cyborg's look. Sempter gave Cyborg a cast (with Expy, Nighshade, The Rat King, etc). All they DC had to do was continue on this path, and if they had given Cyborg a book at the start of Dc New 52 like all the other Justice League members, his run might have been longer.

And even on the Titans, Cyborg doesn’t get the same focus as Nightwing, Starfire, and Raven get.

This is the thing most people seem to forget. Even if Cyborg were to be back on Titans, there's no way he'd get any kind of the narrative focus that the other characters would get.


What's even funnier to me is that Marvel released a few new characters of color the same time DC elevated Cyborg to the Justice League. Cyborg's been pretty much forgotten about but Miles Morales is pretty much a household name. Heck, even Falcon made his MCU debut in 2011 and he's getting a spinoff series with Bucky.

Sure, there are some people who say Miles is only popular because he's using the Spiderman name and not creating his own brand, but if that were so why is Falcon (a character who was originally created to be Captain America's partner) still further along in terms of being a solo hero than Cyborg has ever been? No matter what your argument is (whether it's easier for legacy characters or original characters to gain traction in the mainstream) DC has failed Cyborg on all fronts.

It's disappointing because Cyborg, if treated with respect, could've been a really great answer to Black Panther (in the sense that both characters could explore high science fiction/science fantasy ideas and concepts) Much like people compared Star Wars to Star Trek (Science Fantasy vs Science Fiction).

But...now we're here.

[Ascended]

Weren't people fine with them acknowledging his Titans status as long as he's still in a Justice League book? That seems to be what's happening.

That's all I want. Acknowledge Vic's actual history and relationships without letting them limit what he can do or where he can be. I want Vic on the League, used properly for a change, but I still want him to have been a Titan and maintain those friendships.

There's absolutely no reason Vic can't be a viable Leaguer who gets to participate in League stories in critical ways (like everyone else) and then go get pizza with Garfield. The fact that DC tried to pretend all the Titans history never happened is one of the major reasons Cyborg failed in the New52; his treatment in the JL being the other.

It's not that Vic failed, it's that DC failed him.

[Vordan]

Hell at this point I’d put Vic on the Doom Patrol over the Titans. As the relatively well adjusted guy on that group of freaks he could be the POV character to introduce a new relaunched team (preferably with a writer that actually bothers to turn in his scripts on time). He’s been great on the TV show too and Doom Patrol is a waaaay better show than Titans which is just another example of how Vic has benefitted from not being tied to the Titans in outside media.

[MadFacedKid]

A lot of Falcon’s promotion was under the alias of Captain America. You’re also acting like DC hasn’t done anything with Cyborg since putting him on the League which is false. I also don’t even think I’d agree with either Falcon or Miles being more popular than Cyborg. Even before he was put on the League I think he was still more popular than Falcon is now. It’s just Falcon has had more success with the direction he’s going and part of that has to do with becoming Cap which is the direction he’s going in.

[Ascended]

Hell at this point I’d put Vic on the Doom Patrol over the Titans.

If I had my way, none of the classic NTT would be on that team anymore. The Titans are nothing more than a noose around their necks, limiting what they can do and where they can go. Dick, Wally, Vic, Donna, I want *all* of them far away from the Titans book.

Recognize the history, maintain the friendships, but let them f*cking grow up. I want Wally showing up in Nightwing so he and Dick can hang out. I want Garfield hanging out with Vic in the Hall of Justice while Vic's on monitor duty. Let them join other teams like the Doom Patrol or League or anything. Let them be solo acts and put creators on the books who can advance the narrative a little bit. But I do not want them all together "at work" talking about how friendship is magic and yelling "Titans Together!" like they're still 19.

[Robotman]

I’m totally fine with Vic having some of his Titans history restored. As long as he’s not permanently demoted. The main Justice League really hasn’t been up to anything interesting in a long while. Perpetually stuck fighting Lex and his door knob in Snyder’s run and now slogging through fill in creative teams. It is a huge bummer that his leadership role in Justice League Odyssey fizzled out.

The character has been fantastic on the Doom Patrol tv show but I wouldn’t want him on the team in comics continuity. The Doom Patrol isn’t a team that you graduate into. It’s a self help group for “freaks” and failed experiments. Vic on the show starts as the straight laced future Justice League All Star who is kind of fish out of water. But obviously his time with the Doom Patrol helps him work through his problems. If comic book Vic was on the team he’d have an even harder time ditching the “tragic freak” role DC often saddles him with.

[skyvolt2000]

A lot of Falcon’s promotion was under the alias of Captain America. You’re also acting like DC hasn’t done anything with Cyborg since putting him on the League which is false. I also don’t even think I’d agree with either Falcon or Miles being more popular than Cyborg. Even before he was put on the League I think he was still more popular than Falcon is now. It’s just Falcon has had more success with the direction he’s going and part of that has to do with becoming Cap which is the direction he’s going in.

Miles Morales's resume-

The ONLY thing he loses to Cyborg in is tv appearances.

Miles Morales was a lead in a movie that won an OSCAR.
Solo issues 88 solo issues (black DC OWNED character can boast that)
7 minis (or one shots) with him as the lead.
Video games-16 with ONE as the solo lead.
Novel-One New York Times Best Seller with another coming in 2021.
At least 4 official Miles Morales costumes
25 action figures to plush dolls
6 shirts
10 Miles Morales kids books including coloring books
7 Omnibus books
He did this in 9 years.

Falcon from 2011-2020
1 Falcon costume
6 movie appearances
LEAD the Avengers and Mighty Avengers
2 minis
7 trades
1 Alex Ross poster
4-5 figures and statutes
1 run as Falcon and 1 run as CA
Solo issues 39
12 video game appearances as both Falcon and CA

Cyborg resume under Justice League banner only
1 Cyborg costume
Solo issues 35
5 trades with number 6 getting AXED
1 live movie appearance
2 under the JL banner in animation cartoon show
12 under a Justice League banner DC animated movies
NO solo lead of a video game
1-3 figures under JL banner
1 Cyborg JL shirt

In terms of cartoons and dvd movies-Cyborg beats them both.
In terms of solo stuff Miles & Falcon OWNS him.
In Miles & Falcon's defense they had competition from guys from Wakanda and Mr Jessica Jones. While Cyborg was default because SOMEONE had issues with guys named Jefferson, John, Virgil, Michael, Jason, Mark, Jackson and Luke.

[sifighter]

Personally I think just give him his titans history and let him lead another branch of the Justice League. He could lead the Justice League of America and given what I’m seeing in Odyssey and the regular series tie-in for Death Metal have the lineup be Cyborg, Nightwing, Starfire, Jessica Cruz, Hawkgirl, maybe throw in Supergirl, Martian Manhunter, or Wally or even someone like Detective Chimp or Khalid Nassour(even though I’d rather put him on the JSA) for magic sake.

[Frontier]

There’s the animated movies and live action, merchandising, video games he appeared in probably only due to being on the JL. I could see him not being apart of the first Injustice Game if he wasn’t on the League. The multiple mobile games or having as much toys.

The Injustice games had Raven and Nightwing so I don't think League status made it mandatory. He is still one of the most popular Titans characters.

In the comic books? Nothing, I agree they totally have wasted him. In outside media though, it’s elevated his standing and it’s caused him to be featured more and more prominently. Plus have you seen how DC treats the Titans? What on Earth makes you think Cyborg would benefit from rejoining them? The recent Titans comics have been mediocre dreck that spun around in circles going nowhere. Dick got shot in the head and became Ric. Wally got Dido’d with HiC. Donna remains the complete mess she’s been since CoIE. Beast Boy and Raven have gotten zip to do. Starfire has ditched the Titans to join the JL as well, and I haven’t heard much about her and Vic interacting. Like what specific kind of interactions do you see Vic getting that would benefit him? Because just calling back to the NTT isn’t going to do squat, it didn’t help Wally or Dick for example.

Isn't this less a condemnation of the Titans and more DC's handling of them?

And even on the Titans, Cyborg doesn’t get the same focus as Nightwing, Starfire, and Raven get.

The Titans is still more than just those three, though, and that doesn't mean they don't get focus. I don't think Vic got shortchanged compared to Starfire or Raven in Wolfman or Johns' runs.

This is the thing most people seem to forget. Even if Cyborg were to be back on Titans, there's no way he'd get any kind of the narrative focus that the other characters would get.

Isn't that more dependent on the writer?

What's even funnier to me is that Marvel released a few new characters of color the same time DC elevated Cyborg to the Justice League. Cyborg's been pretty much forgotten about but Miles Morales is pretty much a household name. Heck, even Falcon made his MCU debut in 2011 and he's getting a spinoff series with Bucky.

Sure, there are some people who say Miles is only popular because he's using the Spiderman name and not creating his own brand, but if that were so why is Falcon (a character who was originally created to be Captain America's partner) still further along in terms of being a solo hero than Cyborg has ever been? No matter what your argument is (whether it's easier for legacy characters or original characters to gain traction in the mainstream) DC has failed Cyborg on all fronts.

They tried to market Sam as Falcon as a solo hero but it only lasted 12 issues after his Captain America tenure.

It's disappointing because Cyborg, if treated with respect, could've been a really great answer to Black Panther (in the sense that both characters could explore high science fiction/science fantasy ideas and concepts) Much like people compared Star Wars to Star Trek (Science Fantasy vs Science Fiction).

I don't think Cyborg could be an answer to Black Panther anymore than John Stewart as Green Lantern could be an answer to Black Panther. Just too different characters and stories in my opinion.

Hell at this point I’d put Vic on the Doom Patrol over the Titans. As the relatively well adjusted guy on that group of freaks he could be the POV character to introduce a new relaunched team (preferably with a writer that actually bothers to turn in his scripts on time). He’s been great on the TV show too and Doom Patrol is a waaaay better show than Titans which is just another example of how Vic has benefitted from not being tied to the Titans in outside media.

Even though the main source of his popularity, his catchphrase, and his most defining portrayal came from a Teen Titans cartoon.

If I had my way, none of the classic NTT would be on that team anymore. The Titans are nothing more than a noose around their necks, limiting what they can do and where they can go. Dick, Wally, Vic, Donna, I want *all* of them far away from the Titans book.

Recognize the history, maintain the friendships, but let them f*cking grow up. I want Wally showing up in Nightwing so he and Dick can hang out. I want Garfield hanging out with Vic in the Hall of Justice while Vic's on monitor duty. Let them join other teams like the Doom Patrol or League or anything. Let them be solo acts and put creators on the books who can advance the narrative a little bit. But I do not want them all together "at work" talking about how friendship is magic and yelling "Titans Together!" like they're still 19.

I don't think "growing up" needs to be a pre-requisite for leaving the Titans. It stopped being a team exclusively for teenagers years ago and the issues with the team stem more from DC Editorial than the actual group and their potential.

(Wally did show up in Nightwing while they were both on Titans teams).

[Samm]

Personally I think just give him his titans history and let him lead another branch of the Justice League. He could lead the Justice League of America and given what I’m seeing in Odyssey and the regular series tie-in for Death Metal have the lineup be Cyborg, Nightwing, Starfire, Jessica Cruz, Hawkgirl, maybe throw in Supergirl, Martian Manhunter, or Wally or even someone like Detective Chimp or Khalid Nassour(even though I’d rather put him on the JSA) for magic sake.

Honestly have him lead a team of cosmic superheroes. Cyborg leading Starfire, Jessica Cruz, Supergirl, Hawkgirl, Martian Manhunter, Blue Beetle and Orion. That’s a great premise and with that cast you’ll get to explore Apokolips, Tamaran, Thanagar, Mars, The Reach, and New Genesis! That a huge treasure chest to play with. Loads of potential!!

Just don’t do another one of those Titans reunions that goes no where. Fix that franchise first and actually make them “DC X-Men” before putting Vic back with them.

[sifighter]

Honestly have him lead a team of cosmic superheroes. Cyborg leading Starfire, Jessica Cruz, Supergirl, Hawkgirl, Martian Manhunter, Blue Beetle and Orion. That’s a great premise and with that cast you’ll get to explore Apokolips, Tamaran, Thanagar, Mars, The Reach, and New Genesis! That a huge treasure chest to play with. Loads of potential!!

Just don’t do another one of those Titans reunions that goes no where. Fix that franchise first and actually make them “DC X-Men” before putting Vic back with them.

That is actually a really good lineup, especially for a space faring team.

[Vordan]

Isn't this less a condemnation of the Titans and more DC's handling of them?

Yes, I totally think that’s the main problem. That’s exactly what I’m condemning. I don’t have a problem with the Titans existing as a concept, I have a problem with how DC has used them. The last time the Titans were relevant was when? Johns? That’s over a decade old, Didio’s hate boner screwed them over, I fully believe that, but I also think they need a shake up. Just like how the X-Men became, in Hickman’s words “a franchise that told stories about previous X-Men stories” I feel like current Titans have been that. Mired in nostalgia and looking backwards, unable to bring forth any new ideas because the writers are incompetent or editorial sucks. I don’t want Vic to go back to that because I can’t see it being an improvement over where he is now. If DC could bring the Titans back to their old glory than by all means, put Vic back with them. I just doubt DC’s ability or desire to do that. Let’s see what the Post Death Metal Titans look like.

Even though the main source of his popularity, his catchphrase, and his most defining portrayal came from a Teen Titans cartoon.

Amazing how DC goes out of their way to synergize with outside media, except with that. They didn’t give Vic the cartoon design even though it’s LEAGUES better than the Pre-Flashpoint or Post Flashpoint look. Hell the DC You look even took inspiration from it and DC reverted back! They didn’t give comic Vic the cartoon Vic’s personality of being a fun loving upbeat guy who enjoys being a superhero with only the occasional bout of self-doubt. DC did everything they could to ignore the cartoon.

[chief12d]

The Injustice games had Raven and Nightwing so I don't think League status made it mandatory. He is still one of the most popular Titans characters.

Cyborg is the only one that appeared back to back. If he were a Titan he would've been in the first game then subbed out for another Titan. No one is expecting Starfire to return for Injustice 3.

Isn't this less a condemnation of the Titans and more DC's handling of them?

Whether or not it's the team or DC's handling isn't that relevant though. The Titans franchise has been a dumpster fire with repetitive storytelling for years, no matter who is on the roster. Assuming DC is recanonizing his Titans history with the intention of putting him back on the team, they're injecting him into a mythos that's been struggling quality-wise for years.

The Titans is still more than just those three, though, and that doesn't mean they don't get focus. I don't think Vic got shortchanged compared to Starfire or Raven in Wolfman or Johns' runs.

Cyborg didn't get a big character specific villain until the Technis in the mid-late 90s. He never received a high profile romance and has always lagged behind in popularity with the Titans due to a crap design and weak personality. It was only in the 2000's that he really broke out of his "oh woe is me" act that was stunting his development and grew into a highly respected figure imo.

Isn't that more dependent on the writer?

This is true. There may be some writers who like to write Cy over say Starfire or Nightwing, but I doubt there's many. Whether that bleeds into how he's portrayed and how much paneltime he gets remains to be seen (assuming he's back on Titans team).

They tried to market Sam as Falcon as a solo hero but it only lasted 12 issues after his Captain America tenure.

I agree with this. Marvel put out a lot more material with Sam as Cap than DC did with Cy (including his MCU stuff). But his sales in his own identity were bad and the dude's been on the periphery of the MU ever since. But one could argue shuffling him off the table is ok since Marvel has a stronger roster of Black characters overall in BP and Miles.

I don't think Cyborg could be an answer to Black Panther anymore than John Stewart as Green Lantern could be an answer to Black Panther. Just too different characters and stories in my opinion.

Also agree. Stewart is a legacy character who will never be the head of his own franchise and DC is too incompetent to make the common sense updates to Cyborg that would make him a viable solo lead. Black Panther conceptually speaking is one of the strongest black characters in comics and with the MCU, will almost certainly be ranked above Cy and John for the foreseeable future.

Even though the main source of his popularity, his catchphrase, and his most defining portrayal came from a Teen Titans cartoon.

Which were a great foundation that could've been used to build a solo franchise while moving with the League. Cyborg doesn't need to be on a Titans team in order to say "booyah" or be the lovable, nerdy jock he is from the cartoons. DC's inability to realize that (and execute it well) has been the character's main issue. He could keep the Titans history and the relationships he's built but putting him back on the team proper is a waste given the terrible state the IP is in. Doom Patrol is a better place for him to be if they wanted to demote him.

I don't think "growing up" needs to be a pre-requisite for leaving the Titans. It stopped being a team exclusively for teenagers years ago and the issues with the team stem more from DC Editorial than the actual group and their potential.

There's no point to having an adult Titans team if it always ends up being a greatest hits from the 80's type of run. Of course that depends on the writer but it's rarely worked. DC isn't committed to making adult Titans work as a concept because they probably don't know how. In that case, why not put Raven and Garth on the JLD, while Starfire and Cyborg join the JLO?

[Ascended]

I don't think "growing up" needs to be a pre-requisite for leaving the Titans. It stopped being a team exclusively for teenagers years ago and the issues with the team stem more from DC Editorial than the actual group and their potential.

(Wally did show up in Nightwing while they were both on Titans teams).

I don't want to derail the thread, this is about Vic and not the Titans, but just real quick:

No, there's nothing wrong with the Titans conceptually. The problem is DC, absolutely. But that's essentially a non-issue when the end result is the same. Whether the Titans are broken as an idea or just because DC is stupid, the book itself sucks.

DC seems to have no clear idea what to do with the NTT as Titans, other than recycle old stories that were better the first time. And this forces the cast to cycle through their standard, "classic" themes too; Donna's identity crisis, Vic's "man or machine" angst, Dick wanting to establish himself as his own man, etc.

So right now, there's no benefit to keeping the NTT together as Titans. The book is a mid-level seller at best and any number of titles could sell just as much. DC has no new ideas for the group and each recycling of a classic story just gets worse. So I say let the characters move on. If the NTT was college, they should all now be the "young hotshot professionals" building impressive careers.

If a writer comes along with a good idea to bring the NTT back together, like Hickman and the X-Men, great. Do it. But until that writer comes along? Why would any fan of these characters want them stuck in a book that stunts their development and hasn't gone anywhere in *decades?*