Victor Stone: Cyborg Appreciation 2020

[Frontier]

Yes, I totally think that’s the main problem. That’s exactly what I’m condemning. I don’t have a problem with the Titans existing as a concept, I have a problem with how DC has used them. The last time the Titans were relevant was when? Johns? That’s over a decade old, Didio’s hate boner screwed them over, I fully believe that, but I also think they need a shake up. Just like how the X-Men became, in Hickman’s words “a franchise that told stories about previous X-Men stories” I feel like current Titans have been that. Mired in nostalgia and looking backwards, unable to bring forth any new ideas because the writers are incompetent or editorial sucks. I don’t want Vic to go back to that because I can’t see it being an improvement over where he is now. If DC could bring the Titans back to their old glory than by all means, put Vic back with them. I just doubt DC’s ability or desire to do that. Let’s see what the Post Death Metal Titans look like.

I don't think Cyborg spinning his wheels on the League improving at this rate either, to be honest.

Amazing how DC goes out of their way to synergize with outside media, except with that. They didn’t give Vic the cartoon design even though it’s LEAGUES better than the Pre-Flashpoint or Post Flashpoint look. Hell the DC You look even took inspiration from it and DC reverted back! They didn’t give comic Vic the cartoon Vic’s personality of being a fun loving upbeat guy who enjoys being a superhero with only the occasional bout of self-doubt. DC did everything they could to ignore the cartoon.

I'm not sure if Cyborg's cartoon look would really work in the mainstream comics. People would still probably complain he only has half a face and no other visible human parts.

The thing is that they constantly start Vic off as his early Wolfman/Perez self and forget he developed past that both in terms of the comics and in media adaptions.

Cyborg is the only one that appeared back to back. If he were a Titan he would've been in the first game then subbed out for another Titan. No one is expecting Starfire to return for Injustice 3.

But I don't think his Titans status was completely irrelevant. He actually references them in the game. There could be a host of reasons why he was kept irregardless of his status as being a League staple by that point (not that I'm denying it probably played a part).

Whether or not it's the team or DC's handling isn't that relevant though. The Titans franchise has been a dumpster fire with repetitive storytelling for years, no matter who is on the roster. Assuming DC is recanonizing his Titans history with the intention of putting him back on the team, they're injecting him into a mythos that's been struggling quality-wise for years.

Well, for one, recanonizing his Titans history doesn't automatically mean he's going back to the Titans.

And, frankly, aside from pedigree I'm not sure the Justice League has been much better. When was the last universally-beloved Justice League run? People were mixed on Johns, didn't like Hitch, and soured on Snyder by the end.

Cyborg didn't get a big character specific villain until the Technis in the mid-late 90s. He never received a high profile romance and has always lagged behind in popularity with the Titans due to a crap design and weak personality. It was only in the 2000's that he really broke out of his "oh woe is me" act that was stunting his development and grew into a highly respected figure imo.

He moved past the "oh woe is me" act in the early comics too though. I also don't see his design and personality as bad because even the most popular interpretations still draw from that source.

I agree with this. Marvel put out a lot more material with Sam as Cap than DC did with Cy (including his MCU stuff). But his sales in his own identity were bad and the dude's been on the periphery of the MU ever since. But one could argue shuffling him off the table is ok since Marvel has a stronger roster of Black characters overall in BP and Miles.

Is it really, though?

Which were a great foundation that could've been used to build a solo franchise while moving with the League. Cyborg doesn't need to be on a Titans team in order to say "booyah" or be the lovable, nerdy jock he is from the cartoons. DC's inability to realize that (and execute it well) has been the character's main issue. He could keep the Titans history and the relationships he's built but putting him back on the team proper is a waste given the terrible state the IP is in. Doom Patrol is a better place for him to be if they wanted to demote him.

He doesn't need to be on the Titans to have his most popular personality but it just seems like he's flourished more with the Titans or in Titans-esque teams then he has with the League.

I just don't see the point in putting him in the Doom Patrol. The comic Doom Patrol isn't the show Doom Patrol.

There's no point to having an adult Titans team if it always ends up being a greatest hits from the 80's type of run. Of course that depends on the writer but it's rarely worked. DC isn't committed to making adult Titans work as a concept because they probably don't know how. In that case, why not put Raven and Garth on the JLD, while Starfire and Cyborg join the JLO?

They could, it's just most people would probably still see them as Titans characters at the end of the day.

I don't want to derail the thread, this is about Vic and not the Titans, but just real quick:

No, there's nothing wrong with the Titans conceptually. The problem is DC, absolutely. But that's essentially a non-issue when the end result is the same. Whether the Titans are broken as an idea or just because DC is stupid, the book itself sucks.

DC seems to have no clear idea what to do with the NTT as Titans, other than recycle old stories that were better the first time. And this forces the cast to cycle through their standard, "classic" themes too; Donna's identity crisis, Vic's "man or machine" angst, Dick wanting to establish himself as his own man, etc.

So right now, there's no benefit to keeping the NTT together as Titans. The book is a mid-level seller at best and any number of titles could sell just as much. DC has no new ideas for the group and each recycling of a classic story just gets worse. So I say let the characters move on. If the NTT was college, they should all now be the "young hotshot professionals" building impressive careers.

If a writer comes along with a good idea to bring the NTT back together, like Hickman and the X-Men, great. Do it. But until that writer comes along? Why would any fan of these characters want them stuck in a book that stunts their development and hasn't gone anywhere in *decades?*

I just don't see the team in terms of something where they need to move on from. It's (ideally) it's own distinct, independent, group.

[Ascended]

I just don't see the team in terms of something where they need to move on from. It's (ideally) it's own distinct, independent, group.

Ideally, yes it should be. But that's not the case right now. Right now, the reality is that the Titans are a dead end franchise. That could change in the future and I hope it does, but right now, today, it is what it is, and it won't do any of them any favors to be there again.

The League obviously isn't working for Vic either, but the Titans wouldn't necessarily be a improvement. Given the way DC treats them, it'd almost certainly be worse. Vic might get a little more attention in Titans than he does in the League (maybe) but that's attention with a low end creative team and bad versions of stories we've already read. We might regret him getting that little extra panel time.

[skyvolt2000]

Is it really, though?

Yes and no.
I would say black characters at Marvel at least got shots at minis, one shot, ongoings and even leading a team.

Black Panther will sniff solo issue 200 with the second issue of his post Coates terror run. Luke Cage is a good 3 years away from doing it next. Miles hits 100 in 2 years.
Deathlok (bot recent versions), Prowler (Hobie), Storm, Shuri, Nick Fury Jr, Night Thrasher, Nightwatch, Nighthawk, Black Goliath, Power man Junior, Monica (Spectrum), Falcon/Cap America Falcon, Eli Bradley, Misty Knight (sort of), Dora Milaje (Sort of), Blue Marvel, Blade, Barracuda, Bishop, Shard, War Machine, Moon Girl, Riri and Brother Voodoo have all had either/or/both a mini, ongoing or one shot.

This is NOT counting books like Marvel tales, Marvel 2 in 1 and books like them.

Rocket Racer got at least 4-5 back up stories by Isabella in Marvel books.
Prodigy, Alex Wilder, Blurr 2, Synch, Black Goliath 2 and Flint have had story arcs devoted to them in books.

DC NOT counting Milestone.
Cyborg, John Stewart, Duke, Steel, Orpheus, Michael Lane, Luke Fox & David Z, Jason Rusch, Naomi, Jo, Xero, Doomed, Manhattan Guardian, Vixen, Amanda Waller, Jakeem Thunder, Tattoo Man, Mr Terrific, Spectre 2, Shilo Norman and Black Lightning had solo, one shot and/or/both minis.
Kaldur, Invisible Kid 2, Tyroc, Kid Quantum (maybe), Nubia, Ben Ruble (Supergirl's BF), Thunder/Lightning, Hero Cruz, Malcolm Duncan, Hotspot, Bronze Tiger, Val-Zod, Power Girl 2, Chunk, Black Spider, Wallace West, Amazing Man 1-3 and someone else-had story arc or story devoted to them.

Marvel has given more shots than DC. In terms of one shot, ongoing and minis. Cyborg is the only one who can boast all three. Although a case can be made for Black Lightning with Forever Evil event. Marvel has 4.
Dc has been more willing to devote an arc or single issue to a black character where it's about them-even if it means they die (hi Hotspot & Black Spider).

Marvel had done it in terms of solo, team and anthology books.

Dc has done it outside of books with animation and tv shows. However for the DC group-access to all the stories with them is not an issue. Excluding online-90% of DC's black folks stories are in some trade. Hotspot and Cruz the exceptions.

[Agent Z]

Amazing how DC goes out of their way to synergize with outside media, except with that. They didn’t give Vic the cartoon design even though it’s LEAGUES better than the Pre-Flashpoint or Post Flashpoint look. Hell the DC You look even took inspiration from it and DC reverted back! They didn’t give comic Vic the cartoon Vic’s personality of being a fun loving upbeat guy who enjoys being a superhero with only the occasional bout of self-doubt. DC did everything they could to ignore the cartoon.

DC doesn't do media synergy as much as Marvel. If they did:

* John Stewart and Shayera Hol would have been retconned into League founders.

* Jefferson Pierce's daughters would be still be around.

* Artemis Crock would be on a team with Dick Grayson and would be Asian-American and Jade Nguyen's sister.

* Jackson Hyde/Kaldur would have been raised in Atlantis.

* Superboy and Ms Martian would be a couple.

* Bruce and Barbara would be or would have been in a relationship at some point.

While DC will occasionally integrate characters, story lines and personalities from adaptations, it doesn't happen as often as people think.

[chief12d]

I'm not sure if Cyborg's cartoon look would really work in the mainstream comics. People would still probably complain he only has half a face and no other visible human parts.

His cartoon look would look about as bad as most of his other designs. His DCYou design (minus the overly large faceplate) is the perfect fusion of man and machine. It's crazy that it's not used more, but not surprising.

But I don't think his Titans status was completely irrelevant. He actually references them in the game. There could be a host of reasons why he was kept irregardless of his status as being a League staple by that point (not that I'm denying it probably played a part).

His Titans history is mentioned briefly in some interactions and used as the catalyst for some of his motivations in the game. But he's clearly established as a member of the League and operates alongside them as an equal. Had he not been, he would've been cycled out along with Raven and Nightwing. Cyborg is a lock for the next Injustice game because he's a leading member of the League, unlike Starfire.

Well, for one, recanonizing his Titans history doesn't automatically mean he's going back to the Titans.

And, frankly, aside from pedigree I'm not sure the Justice League has been much better. When was the last universally-beloved Justice League run? People were mixed on Johns, didn't like Hitch, and soured on Snyder by the end.

I literally said that in the post you're responding to lol. I don't expect Vic to end up back with the Titans, I'm just explaining why he absolutely shouldn't.

As MadFacedKid said, Vic's had standout moments sprinkled through his time with the League. And while his use on the team leaves much to be desired the chances of him getting good writing on the League is higher than him getting good writing on Titans, which has been a dying franchise for over a decade. The League has been written better than the Titans for a good bit of time, even if it's still not highly regarded among every fan.

He moved past the "oh woe is me" act in the early comics too though. I also don't see his design and personality as bad because even the most popular interpretations still draw from that source.

I disagree. It was late into the Wolfman run where Cyborg showed genuine signs of progress past his image issues and became a truly confident, more light hearted character. This was taken a step further in the early 2000's and would continue until his character was essentially reset in the New 52.

In fact I'd argue the major shifts in Cyborg's disposition occurred due to the cartoon's influence, not the other way around. The fun, active Cyborg that was well-adjusted and quick to crack a joke is an invention of the cartoons. It was only when he had solemn moments over his condition that he actually resembled comic Vic.

Is it really, though?

Yes, really. Sidelining a B-list black character that hasn't caught on but continuing to publish solos for more popular black characters is unfortunate, but understandable. Condemning your premier black character to a secondary book that's struggled quality wise for over a decade with no apparent replacement is infinitely worse.

He doesn't need to be on the Titans to have his most popular personality but it just seems like he's flourished more with the Titans or in Titans-esque teams then he has with the League.

I just don't see the point in putting him in the Doom Patrol. The comic Doom Patrol isn't the show Doom Patrol.

Cyborg would be crashing and burning with the rest of the Titans if he stayed on the team. That franchise is dead until Jonathan Hickman tells his X-Men saga and comes along to revitalize them. At the very least with the League he's appearing in various animated movies alongside the A-listers and getting live action adaptations like in the DCEU and upcoming SynderCut.

Plus a rumored solo project on HBO Max and appearance in the Flash. He's been a part of prominent stories like Forever Evil and Future's End. If DC had to stop giving him those opportunities, Doom Patrol would be best because at least they tend to be written decently, unlike the Titans.

They could, it's just most people would probably still see them as Titans characters at the end of the day.

What people see them as doesn't change the quality of story telling though. JLD is better written than the recent Titans, thus I think it's fair to say if Raven and Garth were put on that book they'd be better used there. Now that's not a guarantee, as Cyborg and Starfire got shafted in JLO to push a GL.

But even in the brief period where they were driving the narrative they got better writing than basically everyone on Nightwing's team. People will never disassociate the Titans members from their original team, but that doesn't mean you can't tell compelling stories with them on other teams.

[Frontier]

His cartoon look would look about as bad as most of his other designs. His DCYou design (minus the overly large faceplate) is the perfect fusion of man and machine. It's crazy that it's not used more, but not surprising.

I don't disagree (I mean, I like his cartoon design, but still).

His Titans history is mentioned briefly in some interactions and used as the catalyst for some of his motivations in the game. But he's clearly established as a member of the League and operates alongside them as an equal. Had he not been, he would've been cycled out along with Raven and Nightwing. Cyborg is a lock for the next Injustice game because he's a leading member of the League, unlike Starfire.

But in the context of the game it was the same for Raven who was used as a member of the League. And there are probably other elements that went into keeping Cyborg in the game for Injustice 2. Starfire was DLC so that's a whole other thing.

As MadFacedKid said, Vic's had standout moments sprinkled through his time with the League. And while his use on the team leaves much to be desired the chances of him getting good writing on the League is higher than him getting good writing on Titans, which has been a dying franchise for over a decade. The League has been written better than the Titans for a good bit of time, even if it's still not highly regarded among every fan.

I've been more conscious of Cyborg's moments in his League tenure then other have but it seems like most people are still under the impression he does nothing in the book and gets no character development. I'm just not seeing a higher rate of potential for Cyborg with the League unless the next writer really wants to use him.

I also don't view Titans as a dying franchise. The writing in the comics hasn't been up to snuff for a while but it's still probably DC's second most recognizable team brand after the Justice League and popular enough to carry animated films and inspire stuff like Young Justice.

I disagree. It was late into the Wolfman run where Cyborg showed genuine signs of progress past his image issues and became a truly confident, more light hearted character. This was taken a step further in the early 2000's and would continue until his character was essentially reset in the New 52.

In fact I'd argue the major shifts in Cyborg's disposition occurred due to the cartoon's influence, not the other way around. The fun, active Cyborg that was well-adjusted and quick to crack a joke is an invention of the cartoons. It was only when he had solemn moments over his condition that he actually resembled comic Vic.

I think it was a gradual progression under Wolfman. I think the change started to become more evident in the middle of the run rather than later into it.

Yes, really. Sidelining a B-list black character that hasn't caught on but continuing to publish solos for more popular black characters is unfortunate, but understandable. Condemning your premier black character to a secondary book that's struggled quality wise for over a decade with no apparent replacement is infinitely worse.

Sideling a B-list black character that you tried to make into an A-lister only for said tenure to end the way it did and for his own solo to barely be up to snuff? It doesn't seem like a good look to me. Sam has always gotten the short end of the stick aside from the movies though.

Although personally, despite how hard DC has pushed him I don't view Cyborg as their premier black hero.

Cyborg would be crashing and burning with the rest of the Titans if he stayed on the team. That franchise is dead until Jonathan Hickman tells his X-Men saga and comes along to revitalize them. At the very least with the League he's appearing in various animated movies alongside the A-listers and getting live action adaptations like in the DCEU and upcoming SynderCut.

I don't think the franchise is dead. Again, he was in an animated Titans film that was more positive received then the Justice League film he was in. The SnyderCut might be better for his character, and Ray Fisher is hyped for it, but I don't think it'll make much of a difference in the long run.

Plus a rumored solo project on HBO Max and appearance in the Flash. He's been a part of prominent stories like Forever Evil and Future's End. If DC had to stop giving him those opportunities, Doom Patrol would be best because at least they tend to be written decently, unlike the Titans.

Nobody would really pay attention to him in Doom Patrol. It's too much it's own thing in my opinion. Putting him there wouldn't seem like a positive solution compared to the Titans in my opinion.

What people see them as doesn't change the quality of story telling though. JLD is better written than the recent Titans, thus I think it's fair to say if Raven and Garth were put on that book they'd be better used there. Now that's not a guarantee, as Cyborg and Starfire got shafted in JLO to push a GL.

But even in the brief period where they were driving the narrative they got better writing than basically everyone on Nightwing's team. People will never disassociate the Titans members from their original team, but that doesn't mean you can't tell compelling stories with them on other teams.

I don't disagree. At the end of the day it's all in the writers/writing.

[skyvolt2000]

Cyborg would be crashing and burning with the rest of the Titans if he stayed on the team. That franchise is dead until Jonathan Hickman tells his X-Men saga and comes along to revitalize them. At the very least with the League he's appearing in various animated movies alongside the A-listers and getting live action adaptations like in the DCEU and upcoming SynderCut.

What has the Justice League banner done for HIM?

That he was NOT already getting?

He was already in tv shows and cartoons.

He already had merchandise.

He was already in books.

What has Justice League done for him? Outside of 2 badly done solo books.

What is the Syndercut suppose to do for him? Ray Fisher has already burned bridges. Is that suppose to get him a movie??

No one wants to see 96 minutes of "woah is me my Daddy don't love me".

All Justice League has done is show all his flaws and open the door for questions about why Dc has screw up so many black characters that Cyborg is the default one they want rally around.

[chief12d]

But in the context of the game it was the same for Raven who was used as a member of the League. And there are probably other elements that went into keeping Cyborg in the game for Injustice 2. Starfire was DLC so that's a whole other thing.

But then why were Raven and Nightwing taken off the roster while Cyborg stayed? DC would never take one of the primary Leaguers in the comics off one of their biggest games. I don't see any reason to believe he would be on the roster for more than one game otherwise.

I've been more conscious of Cyborg's moments in his League tenure then other have but it seems like most people are still under the impression he does nothing in the book and gets no character development. I'm just not seeing a higher rate of potential for Cyborg with the League unless the next writer really wants to use him.

I also don't view Titans as a dying franchise. The writing in the comics hasn't been up to snuff for a while but it's still probably DC's second most recognizable team brand after the Justice League and popular enough to carry animated films and inspire stuff like Young Justice.

Cyborg has had decent moments in the League from time to time but I believe he tends to be underutilized (along with other characters). The chances of the League getting a decent writer who can elevate their franchise and thus do a decent Cyborg is higher than the same happening for the Titans.

They are a "dying" franchise because in the comics they've struggled quality-wise for over a decade, despite successful adaptations in Teen Titans, Teen Titans Go, and Titans. Speaking from a comics perspective, Cyborg is better served being poorly used on the League than being poorly used on Titans, and the highs of League membership surpass the highs of Titans membership.

I think it was a gradual progression under Wolfman. I think the change started to become more evident in the middle of the run rather than later into it.

Agree to disagree then. I don't think Cyborg grew into his own until late into the Wolfman run and I think his comics persona through the 2000's was influenced by the comics, not the other way around.

Sidelining a B-list black character that you tried to make into an A-lister only for said tenure to end the way it did and for his own solo to barely be up to snuff? It doesn't seem like a good look to me. Sam has always gotten the short end of the stick aside from the movies though.

Although personally, despite how hard DC has pushed him I don't view Cyborg as their premier black hero.

It's not a good look but when you have two A-list black characters that are achieving much more than that B-lister, reducing his presence isn't the worst thing in the world. If Falcon was the only black character at Marvel straddling the upper echelons of comic books then sure, I'd have more to say. But he's a B-lister that unfortunately didn't catch on and there are much stronger properties at the company.

Whether you personally look at Cyborg as A-list is your opinion, but clearly DC has pushed him as their primary black character. He's the guy that appeared in the Justice League movie. He's been in the animated movies alongside Superman and Batman. He even talks about the League in Doom Patrol and in Teen Titans Go he's been shown joining the team. He's the black character they have been pushing the most and demoting him to the Titans would be a worse look than sidelining Falcon. Marvel already has top tier black characters, DC doesn't and removing the one guy they were trying to push to that level is a bigger blow to diversity at the company.

I don't think the franchise is dead. Again, he was in an animated Titans film that was more positive received then the Justice League film he was in. The SnyderCut might be better for his character, and Ray Fisher is hyped for it, but I don't think it'll make much of a difference in the long run.

I mean even if I'm sure it won't be great, the SynderCut is sure to be one of the biggest streaming releases of the year when it comes out, and Cyborg is supposed to be the core. If that results in a high budget HBO Max project that focuses on him in a solo context and is well executed, who knows what could happen for his place in the public consciousness? He wouldn't be getting this focus with the Titans because Titans aren't even in the DCEU. So the potential is there, while on the other side it's virtually nonexistent. An animated movie is great for the hardcore fans but movies are for the masses and I'd rather risks be taken with him on the big screen than playing it safe in cartoons.

Nobody would really pay attention to him in Doom Patrol. It's too much it's own thing in my opinion. Putting him there wouldn't seem like a positive solution compared to the Titans in my opinion.

Depends on the writing. He's been very well received on the show and the same could happen in the comics. Like most franchises, Doom Patrol has been better written both in and out of comics than the Titans so I'd put my faith in that IP. Hell I'd prefer a new Doom Patrol led by Cy and Gar than putting them back with the Titans, as DC clearly does not know or have the interest in advancing that line of comics.

[chief12d]

What has the Justice League banner done for HIM?

That he was NOT already getting?

He was already in tv shows and cartoons.

He already had merchandise.

He was already in books.

What has Justice League done for him? Outside of 2 badly done solo books.

What is the Syndercut suppose to do for him? Ray Fisher has already burned bridges. Is that suppose to get him a movie??

No one wants to see 96 minutes of "woah is me my Daddy don't love me".

All Justice League has done is show all his flaws and open the door for questions about why Dc has screw up so many black characters that Cyborg is the default one they want rally around.

Putting Cyborg on the League was DC's way of justifying his increased presence in their universe across multiple mediums. While he had appeared in cartoons and bookshelves before, his promotion opened up the door for there to be even more. It resulted in his presence on multiple animated shows/movies like Justice League Action and in the DCAU in prominent roles. It put him in a large cinematic universe before any of his former teammates and had it not been for studio interference he would've had a more substantial story told.

Was it perfect? Of course not. From the jump DC should've never removed his Titans history or waited nearly 4 years to give him a solo. Most of my posts about Cyborg are on how he's been better used in other mediums and how the comics fail to make him a successful solo act. But it's given him a higher profile and has allowed the character to avoid the systematic butchering of the Titans that's left characters like Starfire and Beast Boy rudderless for years.

Cyborg has potential that can best be realized as part of the League and with opportunities to shine as a solo hero. The chances of that happening are reduced immensely if he's back with a franchise that's been creatively dead for years.

[Frontier]

But then why were Raven and Nightwing taken off the roster while Cyborg stayed? DC would never take one of the primary Leaguers in the comics off one of their biggest games. I don't see any reason to believe he would be on the roster for more than one game otherwise.

Again, I think there's more to it than just that when it comes to the roster. That's just my feelings on it.

Cyborg has had decent moments in the League from time to time but I believe he tends to be underutilized (along with other characters). The chances of the League getting a decent writer who can elevate their franchise and thus do a decent Cyborg is higher than the same happening for the Titans.

They are a "dying" franchise because in the comics they've struggled quality-wise for over a decade, despite successful adaptations in Teen Titans, Teen Titans Go, and Titans. Speaking from a comics perspective, Cyborg is better served being poorly used on the League than being poorly used on Titans, and the highs of League membership surpass the highs of Titans membership.

I'd think just having successful adaptions is enough to warrant something not being a dying franchise. And I don't think Cyborg's highs have quite had the impact enough to eclipse any of the high's he's had with the Titans in my opinion.

You're probably right that there's a higher chance a better writer will end up on the League than the Titans is because DC is just that pigheaded about it. At the same time you'd then have to hope the new writer actually cares about using Cyborg.

Agree to disagree then. I don't think Cyborg grew into his own until late into the Wolfman run and I think his comics persona through the 2000's was influenced by the comics, not the other way around.

That was just my impression from reading the comics. He was still more of a Ben Grimm type but I feel like with a dash of excitability that's what you'd end up with in the cartoon in my opinion.

It's not a good look but when you have two A-list black characters that are achieving much more than that B-lister, reducing his presence isn't the worst thing in the world. If Falcon was the only black character at Marvel straddling the upper echelons of comic books then sure, I'd have more to say. But he's a B-lister that unfortunately didn't catch on and there are much stronger properties at the company.

Whether you personally look at Cyborg as A-list is your opinion, but clearly DC has pushed him as their primary black character. He's the guy that appeared in the Justice League movie. He's been in the animated movies alongside Superman and Batman. He even talks about the League in Doom Patrol and in Teen Titans Go he's been shown joining the team. He's the black character they have been pushing the most and demoting him to the Titans would be a worse look than sidelining Falcon. Marvel already has top tier black characters, DC doesn't and removing the one guy they were trying to push to that level is a bigger blow to diversity at the company.

I know DC has given him the kind of push you would expect with their premier black character but none of the material, significance, and role that you would expect from a character in that position. Even black characters they haven't pushed as hard feel like they would better fit the role than current Cyborg.

I mean even if I'm sure it won't be great, the SynderCut is sure to be one of the biggest streaming releases of the year when it comes out, and Cyborg is supposed to be the core. If that results in a high budget HBO Max project that focuses on him in a solo context and is well executed, who knows what could happen for his place in the public consciousness? He wouldn't be getting this focus with the Titans because Titans aren't even in the DCEU. So the potential is there, while on the other side it's virtually nonexistent. An animated movie is great for the hardcore fans but movies are for the masses and I'd rather risks be taken with him on the big screen than playing it safe in cartoons.

I would be surprised if the Snyder cut really leads to much more then just it's own release.

I think the TTG! was more of a hit with the masses than Justice League was. If anything JL appealed more to hardcore fans.

Depends on the writing. He's been very well received on the show and the same could happen in the comics. Like most franchises, Doom Patrol has been better written both in and out of comics than the Titans so I'd put my faith in that IP. Hell I'd prefer a new Doom Patrol led by Cy and Gar than putting them back with the Titans, as DC clearly does not know or have the interest in advancing that line of comics.

But the Doom Patrol comics aren't the show and are probably not what people would expect a book with Cyborg on it to be. You put Cy and Gar on a Doom Patrol and it will probably be a more mainstream Doom Patrol book compared to what DC is currently putting out with it.

[Kingdom X]

Ideally, yes it should be. But that's not the case right now. Right now, the reality is that the Titans are a dead end franchise. That could change in the future and I hope it does, but right now, today, it is what it is, and it won't do any of them any favors to be there again.

The League obviously isn't working for Vic either, but the Titans wouldn't necessarily be a improvement. Given the way DC treats them, it'd almost certainly be worse. Vic might get a little more attention in Titans than he does in the League (maybe) but that's attention with a low end creative team and bad versions of stories we've already read. We might regret him getting that little extra panel time.

Didn't Hickman mention that he had a pitch for a Titans run? The minute he leaves X-Men I need him to get on that.

[Ascended]

Didn't Hickman mention that he had a pitch for a Titans run? The minute he leaves X-Men I need him to get on that.

Did he? I have no idea. I've heard he's a big fan of the Legion of Super-Heroes, and I'm pretty sure he's said he likes Superman (or that might've been assumptions based on his Hyperion) but that's all I've heard.

If he's got a Titans run in him then gods yes, make that happen! Hickman is one of those guys who can write whatever the hell he wants, it'll be great.

[chief12d]

Again, I think there's more to it than just that when it comes to the roster. That's just my feelings on it.

I mean if that's how you feel that's fine. I guess one could argue DC wanted a black character to be on the main roster, but other than that I'm convinced that if he weren't being pushed as a Leaguer in the comics he would've been removed along with the other Titans. He was hardly a fan favorite gameplay-wise and I doubt he's that popular among the developers to appear across soon to be 3 games. Which is something only major Leaguers and some of Batman's rogues have done.

I'd think just having successful adaptions is enough to warrant something not being a dying franchise. And I don't think Cyborg's highs have quite had the impact enough to eclipse any of the high's he's had with the Titans in my opinion.

You're probably right that there's a higher chance a better writer will end up on the League than the Titans is because DC is just that pigheaded about it. At the same time you'd then have to hope the new writer actually cares about using Cyborg.

I probably should clarify that I meant a dying franchise as far as comics is concerned. That was the context I was speaking in for that topic. While the Titans have found success in other mediums by and large in the comics they remain marginalized and disrespected both in and outside of the DCU by editorial.

I'd sooner expect a Justice League writer to come on who has an interest in doing something decent with Cyborg than the same happening in the Titans. The latter hasn't found success as a comic for over a decade and at least there have been glimmers of good writing for Cyborg on the League where characters like Raven and Starfire are continually written poorly in every new incarnation.

That was just my impression from reading the comics. He was still more of a Ben Grimm type but I feel like with a dash of excitability that's what you'd end up with in the cartoon in my opinion.

Like I said, agree to disagree. I think the cartoons did more to advance Cyborg's character in the comics than the other way around. Wolfman's Cyborg didn't grow out of his angst in any meaningful way until late into his run, in my opinion.

I know DC has given him the kind of push you would expect with their premier black character but none of the material, significance, and role that you would expect from a character in that position. Even black characters they haven't pushed as hard feel like they would better fit the role than current Cyborg.

That's my point. You may not think he's the "premier" black character but it's clear as day DC is putting in the effort to get him to that level, while characters like John Stewart and Black Lightning haven't gotten as substantial a push (as solo properties). So my point stands, demoting a character they wanted to be their A-list black hero is more detrimental than Marvel sidelining Falcon, who was already being outstripped in prominence and investment by at least 2 other black characters.

I would be surprised if the Snyder cut really leads to much more then just it's own release.

I think the TTG! was more of a hit with the masses than Justice League was. If anything JL appealed more to hardcore fans.

Who knows where it could lead, but I think it's fair to say we wouldn't be even hearing rumors about a solo Cyborg HBO Max show or appearances in Flash if he was still on Titans rather than in the DCEU. I'm saying the growth potential is higher, not that it's guaranteed.

TTG is a kids show, which is great and something Cyborg should still be a part of, but it's not a major cinematic release. TTG! to the movies made less than 60 mil at the box office. Justice League made nearly 660 million (even though admittedly it lost money). More people will watch a big budget superhero movie with Cyborg than those who watch an animated kids movie with him.

Which speaks to my point that Cyborg should be taken to the big screen with the A-listers rather than being limited to animated releases with the Titans. It generates more opportunity and buzz than TTG or an animated movie like Judas Contract can ever accomplish.

But the Doom Patrol comics aren't the show and are probably not what people would expect a book with Cyborg on it to be. You put Cy and Gar on a Doom Patrol and it will probably be a more mainstream Doom Patrol book compared to what DC is currently putting out with it.

It comes down to writing and marketing. Doom Patrol has stronger writing than Titans so the chances of Cyborg and Gar getting good portrayal there is higher. And if it makes the book more mainstream, then potentially that could be an added bonus.

I don't have an issue with the Doom Patrol getting higher sales and deviating from the more niche characters they sometimes go with. Experimentation can be a good thing. DC should tell the Titans writers that

[Frontier]

I mean if that's how you feel that's fine. I guess one could argue DC wanted a black character to be on the main roster, but other than that I'm convinced that if he weren't being pushed as a Leaguer in the comics he would've been removed along with the other Titans. He was hardly a fan favorite gameplay-wise and I doubt he's that popular among the developers to appear across soon to be 3 games. Which is something only major Leaguers and some of Batman's rogues have done.

I definitely think the prestiege of DC's huge promotional push helped, I just don't think it was the only reason.

I probably should clarify that I meant a dying franchise as far as comics is concerned. That was the context I was speaking in for that topic. While the Titans have found success in other mediums by and large in the comics they remain marginalized and disrespected both in and outside of the DCU by editorial.

I'd sooner expect a Justice League writer to come on who has an interest in doing something decent with Cyborg than the same happening in the Titans. The latter hasn't found success as a comic for over a decade and at least there have been glimmers of good writing for Cyborg on the League where characters like Raven and Starfire are continually written poorly in every new incarnation.

I think Raven and Kori have been handled decently in the past few years and, honestly, even despite the quality issues the comics still sell well and better than some of Marvel's teen titles.

Like I said, agree to disagree. I think the cartoons did more to advance Cyborg's character in the comics than the other way around. Wolfman's Cyborg didn't grow out of his angst in any meaningful way until late into his run, in my opinion.

Wolfman's development of Cyborg felt very gradual but I still think you can see the development of him from how he began to him becoming that character in some respects. Young Justice went for a similar take.

That's my point. You may not think he's the "premier" black character but it's clear as day DC is putting in the effort to get him to that level, while characters like John Stewart and Black Lightning haven't gotten as substantial a push (as solo properties). So my point stands, demoting a character they wanted to be their A-list black hero is more detrimental than Marvel sidelining Falcon, who was already being outstripped in prominence and investment by at least 2 other black characters.

I agree that DC put a lot of effort into it, but it pretty much fell flat to where I just don't think the moniker fits him very well.

Who knows where it could lead, but I think it's fair to say we wouldn't be even hearing rumors about a solo Cyborg HBO Max show or appearances in Flash if he was still on Titans rather than in the DCEU. I'm saying the growth potential is higher, not that it's guaranteed.

TTG is a kids show, which is great and something Cyborg should still be a part of, but it's not a major cinematic release. TTG! to the movies made less than 60 mil at the box office. Justice League made nearly 660 million (even though admittedly it lost money). More people will watch a big budget superhero movie with Cyborg than those who watch an animated kids movie with him.

Which speaks to my point that Cyborg should be taken to the big screen with the A-listers rather than being limited to animated releases with the Titans. It generates more opportunity and buzz than TTG or an animated movie like Judas Contract can ever accomplish.

I'd say those chances would be higher had JL not bombed the way it did. I think it hurt Cyborg's chances with the League and to be intrinsically connected to the group more than the comics have and he gets more positive buzz with the Titans.

It comes down to writing and marketing. Doom Patrol has stronger writing than Titans so the chances of Cyborg and Gar getting good portrayal there is higher. And if it makes the book more mainstream, then potentially that could be an added bonus.

I don't have an issue with the Doom Patrol getting higher sales and deviating from the more niche characters they sometimes go with. Experimentation can be a good thing. DC should tell the Titans writers that

I just don't think Doom Patrol right now is the kind of comic that would be a good fit for more mainstream characters like Cyborg and Beast Boy. It's not even under the mainstream DCU imprint-wise.

[chief12d]

I definitely think the prestiege of DC's huge promotional push helped, I just don't think it was the only reason.

Do you mind explaining what other reasons there could be? Because I don't see why DC would go out of its way to feature Cy back to back but not Dick or Raven. The only difference I can see is that there's been a push for close to a decade to amplify his role on the League.

I think Raven and Kori have been handled decently in the past few years and, honestly, even despite the quality issues the comics still sell well and better than some of Marvel's teen titles.

I personally think Starfire was atrocious through the New 52 and a good bit of Rebirth, save for her solo, which was just fine. She was great in the early bits of JLO as well, but that didn't have much to do with the Titans. Her presence on Red Hood was almost universally reviled by fans and only marginally improved, while her role in Damian's Titans has also not been highly regarded (on top of the run itself being mediocre at best).

Raven also struggled in the New 52 and Rebirth Teen Titans from a quality perspective, though she did have somewhat decent appearances in the DCAMU (as part of a team, obviously). Though as I demonstrated, animated movies are a drop in the bucket and not very relevant to the status of a character in the public consciousness at large. I think Cyborg has fared better than both of them despite the issues he's faced. I'd argue he's been given better moments in the comics and has had much higher profile portrayals in other media. Most importantly, it seems that things are lining up for his continued role in the live-action movie/HBO Max properties.

Wolfman's development of Cyborg felt very gradual but I still think you can see the development of him from how he began to him becoming that character in some respects. Young Justice went for a similar take.

You're entitled to your opinion on that as far as Wolfman's version of Cy is concerned. I'm not convinced the cartoons didn't rewrite his character into a more positive and joyous one that trickled its way back into the comics.

I agree that DC put a lot of effort into it, but it pretty much fell flat to where I just don't think the moniker fits him very well.

You're arguing semantics though lol. Your opinion on whether he deserves the moniker isn't the point. Cyborg is getting the biggest push of any black character at DC. Demoting him to a secondary team that has been of low quality for years is worse than Marvel doing the same to Falcon, who isn't even the 2nd most popular black character at the company. It doesn't sound like you disagree.

I'd say those chances would be higher had JL not bombed the way it did. I think it hurt Cyborg's chances with the League and to be intrinsically connected to the group more than the comics have and he gets more positive buzz with the Titans.

The chances may be reduced but they are still there, while the same can't be said for the Titans. Every character was hurt by JL but as we've seen Aquaman could rebound and if DC puts the right foot forward and the SynderCut is a success, that could result in more opportunities for Vic. Opportunities that Titans membership currently don't offer.

I just don't think Doom Patrol right now is the kind of comic that would be a good fit for more mainstream characters like Cyborg and Beast Boy. It's not even under the mainstream DCU imprint-wise.

It doesn't always have to be that way though. DC could easily decide to bring more mainstream characters to the Doom Patrol and play with the direction. It's only not that kind of comic until DC decides it is. Which is the whole idea behind it depends on the writing and editorial will. A run like that has a higher probability of being good than a Titans book if we're taking recent publishing into account.