Victor Stone: Cyborg Appreciation 2020

[Frontier]

Do you mind explaining what other reasons there could be? Because I don't see why DC would go out of its way to feature Cy back to back but not Dick or Raven. The only difference I can see is that there's been a push for close to a decade to amplify his role on the League.

Plotwise they couldn't use Dick because Damian was Nightwing. I guess they could have made Dick an alternate skin for Damian instead of that just being his Nightwing look.

I could see his gameplay, character design, and status as a prominent character of color playing a part. Netherealm loves their cyborgs.

I personally think Starfire was atrocious through the New 52 and a good bit of Rebirth, save for her solo, which was just fine. She was great in the early bits of JLO as well, but that didn't have much to do with the Titans. Her presence on Red Hood was almost universally reviled by fans and only marginally improved, while her role in Damian's Titans has also not been highly regarded (on top of the run itself being mediocre at best).

I thought her role in Rebirth was improving when they were starting to build up to her becoming the leader of the team instead of Damian like she is in the animated movies. It at least continued the building back up of her character after how much fans disliked the New 52 take and the characterization was pretty much on-point.

I've always felt like JLO was a stealth Titans book with the Justice League branding, to be honest. It always felt more Titans then JL.

Raven also struggled in the New 52 and Rebirth Teen Titans from a quality perspective, though she did have somewhat decent appearances in the DCAMU (as part of a team, obviously). Though as I demonstrated, animated movies are a drop in the bucket and not very relevant to the status of a character in the public consciousness at large. I think Cyborg has fared better than both of them despite the issues he's faced. I'd argue he's been given better moments in the comics and has had much higher profile portrayals in other media. Most importantly, it seems that things are lining up for his continued role in the live-action movie/HBO Max properties.

Rebirth got Raven out of her New 52 costume. That is a huge victory in-and-of-itself.

I don't think what Cyborg's accomplished in the comics had enough of an impact when the majority still seem to be under the impression he's done nothing in the League other than whine about "am I a man, or a machine." I have had to bring up the things he did get to do in the run in 2-3 different threads. He's definitely been used more than they have in other media although I'd say only 2-3 of those appearances were anything major.

You're entitled to your opinion on that as far as Wolfman's version of Cy is concerned. I'm not convinced the cartoons didn't rewrite his character into a more positive and joyous one that trickled its way back into the comics.

I wouldn't even say it tricked back into the comics much. He still feels pretty much the same character he's been in the comics for a while. Walker was the only one who seemed to try and bring more of a cartoon vibe to the character. I think that was the first time Booyah was used in the comics?

You're arguing semantics though lol. Your opinion on whether he deserves the moniker isn't the point. Cyborg is getting the biggest push of any black character at DC. Demoting him to a secondary team that has been of low quality for years is worse than Marvel doing the same to Falcon, who isn't even the 2nd most popular black character at the company. It doesn't sound like you disagree.

I agree that DC should do as good a job as Marvel of at least having more series starring their black heroes instead of just throwing them into team books, even if they don't sell. Then they wouldn't have to deal with the fallout of all the issues they've come across with Cyborg's push.

The chances may be reduced but they are still there, while the same can't be said for the Titans. Every character was hurt by JL but as we've seen Aquaman could rebound and if DC puts the right foot forward and the SynderCut is a success, that could result in more opportunities for Vic. Opportunities that Titans membership currently don't offer.

Aquaman was too far in production to really be impacted by the fallout of JL, as far as I am aware, so I think that puts him in a different position than Cyborg especially when Fisher seems more disillusioned and we haven't heard anything about the Cyborg solo film in years.

It doesn't always have to be that way though. DC could easily decide to bring more mainstream characters to the Doom Patrol and play with the direction. It's only not that kind of comic until DC decides it is. Which is the whole idea behind it depends on the writing and editorial will. A run like that has a higher probability of being good than a Titans book if we're taking recent publishing into account.

I just don't think it's likely with how DC currently views/handles the Doom Patrol as a property. I also wouldn't say it has a higher likelihood because making it more mainstream wouldn't guarantee the same kind of writing quality.

[Ascended]

I just don't think Doom Patrol right now is the kind of comic that would be a good fit for more mainstream characters like Cyborg and Beast Boy. It's not even under the mainstream DCU imprint-wise.

Not being under the main DCU as far as imprints go might just be the best thing that could happen to Vic. Not like mainstream DCU has done him any favors.

The further away you get from the core DCU, the better Vic is treated and the more popular he is. I'm not saying he'd be a good fit for the current Doom Patrol (I haven't actually read it) but I wouldn't be too upset if he moved over to an imprint somewhere. That might not work out for him, but being in the core DCU sure as hell isn't working either so I'd happily take the chance.

For quite a few years now, the core DCU hasn't exactly been good for characters who aren't the Big 6 or Harley Quinn. We've gotten some good stories and mini's for a bunch of characters here and there, but those seven characters are just about the only ones DC treats well on a consistent basis.....and I don't think we can even truly include Diana in this, despite the fact that it's friggin Wonder Woman. Anyone on the B-list or below, right now I'm fine with them leaving the core DCU for imprints, bookstore OGN's, whatever.

[Frontier]

Not being under the main DCU as far as imprints go might just be the best thing that could happen to Vic. Not like mainstream DCU has done him any favors.

The further away you get from the core DCU, the better Vic is treated and the more popular he is. I'm not saying he'd be a good fit for the current Doom Patrol (I haven't actually read it) but I wouldn't be too upset if he moved over to an imprint somewhere. That might not work out for him, but being in the core DCU sure as hell isn't working either so I'd happily take the chance.

For quite a few years now, the core DCU hasn't exactly been good for characters who aren't the Big 6 or Harley Quinn. We've gotten some good stories and mini's for a bunch of characters here and there, but those seven characters are just about the only ones DC treats well on a consistent basis.....and I don't think we can even truly include Diana in this, despite the fact that it's friggin Wonder Woman. Anyone on the B-list or below, right now I'm fine with them leaving the core DCU for imprints, bookstore OGN's, whatever.

I don't think that's true. I think it just depends on the quality of the work itself rather than it's actual standing within DC hierarchy. I think sticking him with an imprint would be equally limiting in it's own way.

[chief12d]

Plotwise they couldn't use Dick because Damian was Nightwing. I guess they could have made Dick an alternate skin for Damian instead of that just being his Nightwing look.

I could see his gameplay and prominence as a DC character playing a part (and I regard that differently from his League status, personally), and of course keeping more diversity in the game.

Then why didn't they make an alternate skin? And that still doesn't explain Raven's absence.

I don't see how you could look at Cyborg's prominence as of late separate from his League status. And like I said, Cyborg is widely perceived as a low level character in terms of gameplay from the Injustice 2 community. Rarely used at tournaments and absent in most video playthroughs. He could easily be displaced by multiple characters with a similar moveset as a permanent spot. And in terms of diversity, even that ties into his League status as one could argue he wouldn't be the black character they chose if he wasn't being pushed as a Leaguer. If Black Lightning or Vixen had gotten the promotion Cy would've gone the same way as Raven and Dick or been used as a DLC.

I thought her role in Rebirth was improving when they were starting to build up to her becoming the leader of the team instead of Damian like she is in the animated movies. It at least continued the building back up of her character after how much fans disliked the New 52 take and the characterization was pretty much on-point.

I've always felt like JLO was a stealth Titans book with the Justice League branding, to be honest. It always felt more Titans then JL.

I disagree that her role was improving. The book as a whole was subpar through and through and the highs she achieved in that book don't erase the absolute lows of the New 52. As a whole Starfire fell in prominence and writing quality through New 52 and Rebirth.

Well there were only 2 actual Titans on the team so I don't see how it's a Titans book. I guess the fact the main team was comprised of 2 Titans and 2 legacy characters, but they were dealing with New Gods and DC's cosmic mythos, which make it more of space-based League book. Between that and the fact there were virtually no references to the Titans I think it's a full League book.

Rebirth got Raven out of her New 52 costume. That is a huge victory in-and-of-itself.

I don't think what Cyborg's accomplished in the comics had enough of an impact when the majority still seem to be under the impression he's done nothing in the League other than whine about "am I a man, or a machine." I have had to bring up the things he did get to do in the run in 2-3 different threads. He's definitely been used more than they have in other media although I'd say only 2-3 of those appearances were anything major.

A costume change is relatively minor and doesn't erase poor usage . Raven still was written poorly through most of her appearances in New 52 and Rebirth on bad books, which is worse than Cyborg who at least had some decent moments on the League and in his solos. And I've seen threads where others bring up they liked him on the League so it's a matter of different experiences. I'm sure the idea that Cyborg has done absolutely nothing on the League is rampant, but there are many fans who believe the opposite and in terms of outside media we've already seen him play big roles. Cyborg having 2-3 major appearances in other media is more than Raven and Star, which is my point. It's increased usage that opens up the door to more opportunities in the future.

I wouldn't even say it tricked back into the comics much. He still feels pretty much the same character he's been in the comics for a while. Walker was the only one who seemed to try and bring more of a cartoon vibe to the character. I think that was the first time Booyah was used in the comics?

I meant trickled back into the comics prior to the New 52 reboot. Cyborg became more light hearted through the mid-2000s before having his character development reversed by the New 52. And while some books have been able to move past it like Walker's run and the Priest JL run, along with the early JLO issues, by and large Cyborg's character more closely resembles the one from Wolfman than the cartoons. He's had solid moments with that characterization but even then stuff like his Metal Men team up felt more reminiscent of the cartoons than the 80's.

I agree that DC should do as good a job as Marvel of at least having more series starring their black heroes instead of just throwing them into team books, even if they don't sell. Then they wouldn't have to deal with the fallout of all the issues they've come across with Cyborg's push.

Great, so we agree lol.

Aquaman was too far in production to really be impacted by the fallout of JL, as far as I am aware, so I think that puts him in a different position than Cyborg especially when Fisher seems more disillusioned and we haven't heard anything about the Cyborg solo film in years.

I mean it's not unreasonable to think that the fallout from Justice League could've impacted Aquaman. That it rose to the challenge and made a billion doesn't mean audiences couldn't have been soured at the idea of a Justice League follow up. That's the point I'm making with Cyborg, an appearance in one weak film doesn't need to define his presence in an ongoing cinematic universe. The SynderCut could elevate the character and spark new movement in other Cyborg-related projects on HBO Max or on the big screen. Hell, it's been implied for months now that Vic is supposed to appear in Flash, which could be the push that results in a solo project. This wouldn't even be on the table if he was in the same position as Starfire or Raven.

I just don't think it's likely with how DC currently views/handles the Doom Patrol as a property. I also wouldn't say it has a higher likelihood because making it more mainstream wouldn't guarantee the same kind of writing quality.

It comes down to the writing. Agree to disagree. DC could announce tomorrow Doom Patrol is no longer an imprint and could decide to use a more mainstream roster to attract potential sales. Whether it would be of high quality would be anyone's guess, but I have higher hopes for a good Doom Patrol run than I do a good Titans run.[/QUOTE]

[Ascended]

I don't think that's true. I think it just depends on the quality of the work itself rather than it's actual standing within DC hierarchy. I think sticking him with an imprint would be equally limiting in it's own way.

It does depend on the quality of the work, of course. But in the main publishing line, the characters who get consistently good treatment and high-value creators/Events/roles are almost always the Big 6 Leaguers and Harley.

We get some fantastic books in the main line outside of those characters of course, but they're generally either a pet project miniseries like Mr. Miracle or Naomi, or a happy accident where a creator hits a high point with a book that just happens to catch on with readers, like Lobdell's Red Hood.

And if Vic got something like that, great. I'd certainly read it. But what're the odds that, a year or two later, he'd still have that high value creative team? What're the odds that he'd be showcasing in a major A-list book as anything more than a secondary, background character? We can look at the past nine years and see what the precedent is....and it doesn't really support the idea that modern DC puts its best effort into characters outside the ones I mentioned above.

I mean, let's just compare some non-League/Harley books in the main publishing line to what the imprints are doing. In the "main publishing" category we have Nightwing, Batgirl, Supergirl, Teen Titans, etc. And in the "imprint" category we have Dial H, Doom Patrol, Wonder Twins, Last God. There are some examples of good books in the "main" category and I'm not discounting that (I miss Deathstroke!), but most of those books are, at best, rather average. And there are some bad books among the imprints, but most of those books are, generally, pretty damn good.

Just looking at the math, Vic would have better odds in an imprint. He *could* have a good book in the main line, he *could* have a bad book in an imprint. But I know how I'd place my bet.

[9th.]

It does depend on the quality of the work, of course. But in the main publishing line, the characters who get consistently good treatment and high-value creators/Events/roles are almost always the Big 6 Leaguers and Harley.

We get some fantastic books in the main line outside of those characters of course, but they're generally either a pet project miniseries like Mr. Miracle or Naomi, or a happy accident where a creator hits a high point with a book that just happens to catch on with readers, like Lobdell's Red Hood.

And if Vic got something like that, great. I'd certainly read it. But what're the odds that, a year or two later, he'd still have that high value creative team? What're the odds that he'd be showcasing in a major A-list book as anything more than a secondary, background character? We can look at the past nine years and see what the precedent is....and it doesn't really support the idea that modern DC puts its best effort into characters outside the ones I mentioned above.

I mean, let's just compare some non-League/Harley books in the main publishing line to what the imprints are doing. In the "main publishing" category we have Nightwing, Batgirl, Supergirl, Teen Titans, etc. And in the "imprint" category we have Dial H, Doom Patrol, Wonder Twins, Last God. There are some examples of good books in the "main" category and I'm not discounting that (I miss Deathstroke!), but most of those books are, at best, rather average. And there are some bad books among the imprints, but most of those books are, generally, pretty damn good.

Just looking at the math, Vic would have better odds in an imprint. He *could* have a good book in the main line, he *could* have a bad book in an imprint. But I know how I'd place my bet.

I think Vic would do better in an imprint simply because they like to experiment more. There's a chance they might do something we haven't seen before.

[Frontier]

Then why didn't they make an alternate skin? And that still doesn't explain Raven's absence.

I think a lot went into why they didn't make it to the second game beyond Titans status.

I don't see how you could look at Cyborg's prominence as of late separate from his League status. And like I said, Cyborg is widely perceived as a low level character in terms of gameplay from the Injustice 2 community. Rarely used at tournaments and absent in most video playthroughs. He could easily be displaced by multiple characters with a similar moveset as a permanent spot. And in terms of diversity, even that ties into his League status as one could argue he wouldn't be the black character they chose if he wasn't being pushed as a Leaguer. If Black Lightning or Vixen had gotten the promotion Cy would've gone the same way as Raven and Dick or been used as a DLC.

You might be right. I just don't see it as the be all and end all of his inclusion.

I disagree that her role was improving. The book as a whole was subpar through and through and the highs she achieved in that book don't erase the absolute lows of the New 52. As a whole Starfire fell in prominence and writing quality through New 52 and Rebirth.

I thought Percy's run was pretty solid all things considered. It had it's issues but (Lazarus Contract aside) I thought the characterizations were generally on-point even if some characters were too deferential to Damian than they should've been and I thought it was doing a good job of organically putting Starfire in a leadership role for the team before she got shipped of to space.

Well there were only 2 actual Titans on the team so I don't see how it's a Titans book. I guess the fact the main team was comprised of 2 Titans and 2 legacy characters, but they were dealing with New Gods and DC's cosmic mythos, which make it more of space-based League book. Between that and the fact there were virtually no references to the Titans I think it's a full League book.

It felt like a cosmic adventure book that hearkened towards the cosmic stories the Titans went through even though they were dealing with Darkseid (but of course Blackfire still turns up). Cyborg and Starfire were the driving force for the book before Jessica Cruz took over, to that was another thing. Jessica felt like Kyle on the Titans and Azrael was the kind of off-kilter choice I could see on a Titans group.

A costume change is relatively minor and doesn't erase poor usage . Raven still was written poorly through most of her appearances in New 52 and Rebirth on bad books, which is worse than Cyborg who at least had some decent moments on the League and in his solos. And I've seen threads where others bring up they liked him on the League so it's a matter of different experiences. I'm sure the idea that Cyborg has done absolutely nothing on the League is rampant, but there are many fans who believe the opposite and in terms of outside media we've already seen him play big roles. Cyborg having 2-3 major appearances in other media is more than Raven and Star, which is my point. It's increased usage that opens up the door to more opportunities in the future.

When your costume is as bad as the New 52 Raven look, it is a big deal.

I don't think Raven was written badly during Rebirth. We can agree to disagree about Percy's Titans but I can't recall any moment where it seemed like Percy completely missed the point of the character. I never read Abnett's Titans with her in it.

I very rarely see anyone give credit to his actual use in the League in the comics. I more see people discussing the unrealized potential of him on the League than I do what he has actually done in the group, with the implication being that for the most part fans don't recognize what's been actually done with him in the book for one reason or another.

In terms of "big roles" there's Fisher in the Justice League films, and...the animated movies with him on the League? Doom Patrol wouldn't count. Young Justice Outsiders was basically a Titans thing more than anything else.

I meant trickled back into the comics prior to the New 52 reboot. Cyborg became more light hearted through the mid-2000s before having his character development reversed by the New 52. And while some books have been able to move past it like Walker's run and the Priest JL run, along with the early JLO issues, by and large Cyborg's character more closely resembles the one from Wolfman than the cartoons. He's had solid moments with that characterization but even then stuff like his Metal Men team up felt more reminiscent of the cartoons than the 80's.

I've read pre-Flashpoint Cyborg and he didn't really remind me much of cartoon Cy. He still felt like the Wolfman version of the character after all his character development.

I think the Metal Men had more in common with the Doom Patrol in terms of the dynamic with Cyborg compared to the cartoon or classic!Cyborg.

I mean it's not unreasonable to think that the fallout from Justice League could've impacted Aquaman. That it rose to the challenge and made a billion doesn't mean audiences couldn't have been soured at the idea of a Justice League follow up. That's the point I'm making with Cyborg, an appearance in one weak film doesn't need to define his presence in an ongoing cinematic universe. The SynderCut could elevate the character and spark new movement in other Cyborg-related projects on HBO Max or on the big screen. Hell, it's been implied for months now that Vic is supposed to appear in Flash, which could be the push that results in a solo project. This wouldn't even be on the table if he was in the same position as Starfire or Raven.

I just don't see post-JL DC greenlighting a Cyborg solo film or the SynderCut changing minds. He could be in Flash and that could deliver a strong Cyborg outing, but no one seems to be quite sure what that film is going to end up being other than a Flashpoint adaption (which could feature Victor in a prominent role).

It comes down to the writing. Agree to disagree. DC could announce tomorrow Doom Patrol is no longer an imprint and could decide to use a more mainstream roster to attract potential sales. Whether it would be of high quality would be anyone's guess, but I have higher hopes for a good Doom Patrol run than I do a good Titans run.

DC could, but I'm not seeing it as a likelihood that they will. I have about as much expectations for a Titans relaunch as I would a new Doom Patrol book that wouldn't be written by Gerard Way and have to be it's own thing.

[Robotman]

An aspect of Vic on Doom Patrol that I find way more interesting than in the comic is his relationship with his dad. Vic always lamented that Silas never cared about his football achievements. Silas felt Vic was wasting his genius mind on athletics. But he became an overbearing “sports dad” when it came to Cyborg’s superhero career. Vic as a superhero had his dad obsessing about his powers and abilities just like a crazed parent of an all star athlete. This version of Vic has the potential to be on the “starting lineup” of the Justice League and Silas let’s that dominate his relationship with his son.

[chief12d]

I think a lot went into why they didn't make it to the second game beyond Titans status.

You might be right. I just don't see it as the be all and end all of his inclusion.

But you haven't provided a legit reason why it wouldn't be the end all be all. The only significant difference between Cyborg and those two is that he was the black dude they were pushing in the comics, but agree to disagree I guess.

I thought Percy's run was pretty solid all things considered. It had it's issues but (Lazarus Contract aside) I thought the characterizations were generally on-point even if some characters were too deferential to Damian than they should've been and I thought it was doing a good job of organically putting Starfire in a leadership role for the team before she got shipped of to space.

Percy's run was subpar (imo of course). The other characters were far too deferential to Damian who was written in an unbearable manner that did a disservice to his character. The characterization was incredibly poor, especially in the first few arcs, and it only slightly improved, but still remained repetitive and boring. It was far from a genuinely good run, along with stilted dialogue and barely above average art.

It felt like a cosmic adventure book that hearkened towards the cosmic stories the Titans went through even though they were dealing with Darkseid (but of course Blackfire still turns up). Cyborg and Starfire were the driving force for the book before Jessica Cruz took over, to that was another thing. Jessica felt like Kyle on the Titans and Azrael was the kind of off-kilter choice I could see on a Titans group.

I didn't get that vibe at all. They were dealing with a much higher caliber threat than one could expect from a space Titans team, while operating the institutional support of the Justice League. Jessica Cruz is a somewhat experienced Leaguer and Cyborg and Starfire's friendship was barely a major aspect of the initial issues where they were relevant. And now the book is trying to be DC's version of the GotG, so whatever similarities it had to the Titans (legacies and 2 former members) seem to have been shed. There were superficial similarities to the Titans but I think it was firmly a Justice League title.

When your costume is as bad as the New 52 Raven look, it is a big deal.

I don't think Raven was written badly during Rebirth. We can agree to disagree about Percy's Titans but I can't recall any moment where it seemed like Percy completely missed the point of the character. I never read Abnett's Titans with her in it.

I don't think so. Her costume was bad but hardly the biggest issue with her character during that run. Raven was underwhelming in Rebirth and the Percy run as a whole was weak. Had that awkward romance with black Wally and little in the way of compelling character work other than the standard controlling her emotions arc. Abnett's run turned its wheels the entire time and failed to break any new ground. Another "Miss Martian is a White Martian!" story, another "Chuch of Blood terrorists!" arc, more lecturing from the League, and Nightwing taken off the board. Overall, both were bad with weak dialogue, ok art, and uninspired, lazy plotting. Raven wasn't the worst thing about those books, but she was never a highlight and written about as badly as everyone else (save maybe Beast Boy and Miss Martian).

I very rarely see anyone give credit to his actual use in the League in the comics. I more see people discussing the unrealized potential of him on the League than I do what he has actually done in the group, with the implication being that for the most part fans don't recognize what's been actually done with him in the book for one reason or another.

I seen and spoken with plenty of people who recognize some of the benefits of League membership for Cyborg, so it comes down to the circles you run with. I'm not denying that there aren't many who aren't aware of the character's accomplishments, but I've had experiences that tell me there's many who believe the opposite.

In terms of "big roles" there's Fisher in the Justice League films, and...the animated movies with him on the League? Doom Patrol wouldn't count. Young Justice Outsiders was basically a Titans thing more than anything else.

Yea, a big DCEU appearance, an upcoming HBO Max release to expand on it and a major animated role that retold his origin in the context of League film. Doom Patrol doesn't count, but it isn't contingent on his Titans history either and there's been a clear attempt to signal he has the potential to be a Leaguer. That's more substantial than most of the other Titans members.

I've read pre-Flashpoint Cyborg and he didn't really remind me much of cartoon Cy. He still felt like the Wolfman version of the character after all his character development.

I think the Metal Men had more in common with the Doom Patrol in terms of the dynamic with Cyborg compared to the cartoon or classic!Cyborg.

It felt like the late Wolfman iteration cranked up a few notches due to the influence of the cartoon's light-heartedness. Markedly less mopey and with increased leadership opportunities. But if you think the cartoon had no influence on the comics then that's fine.

His team up with the Metal Men felt liked a callback to the cartoon days because even though it was technically a serious situation, there was a certain quippyness and self-confidence that felt reminiscent of the cartoon. But it did feel very Doom Patrol, which for what it's worth feels like it draws more from the cartoons than it does the Wolfman run in terms of characterization. Doom Patrol Cyborg is a lot like a more mature version of cartoon Cyborg or the Cyborg we had right before the reboot (which also took from the animated material).

I just don't see post-JL DC greenlighting a Cyborg solo film or the SynderCut changing minds. He could be in Flash and that could deliver a strong Cyborg outing, but no one seems to be quite sure what that film is going to end up being other than a Flashpoint adaption (which could feature Victor in a prominent role).

You're addressing my points as though I'm speaking in absolutes. I'm saying a Cyborg HBO Max show is possible. That a standout appearance in the SynderCut could spark movement on other projects in the DCEU, which to me is greater potential than he would have as just another Titan. Unless you're saying there's absolutely no chance of these projects happening, I don't see how what I'm saying is wrong. There are certain opportunities that come with just being an established character in the DCEU. These opportunities would not even be up for discussion if he were in the same position as Starfire or Beast Boy (neither of whom have appeared in a big-budget live action movie, been rumored for appearances in other films, or their own solo projects). Time will tell if Cyborg projects come out, but at least there's some buzz around it and the chance for that to change.

DC could, but I'm not seeing it as a likelihood that they will. I have about as much expectations for a Titans relaunch as I would a new Doom Patrol book that wouldn't be written by Gerard Way and have to be it's own thing.

I never said a likelihood, just a possibility. DC could decide to do a more mainstream Doom Patrol run and there's a good chance given recent publications that it would be better than the inevitable Titans relaunch. But these are hypotheticals that don't exactly matter since if Cyborg is gonna be in any book it'll either be in the League or Titans. But in the off chance DC decides to do a Doom Patrol with Cy I'd prefer that and expect it to actually contain decent writing.

[chief12d]

An aspect of Vic on Doom Patrol that I find way more interesting than in the comic is his relationship with his dad. Vic always lamented that Silas never cared about his football achievements. Silas felt Vic was wasting his genius mind on athletics. But he became an overbearing “sports dad” when it came to Cyborg’s superhero career. Vic as a superhero had his dad obsessing about his powers and abilities just like a crazed parent of an all star athlete. This version of Vic has the potential to be on the “starting lineup” of the Justice League and Silas let’s that dominate his relationship with his son.

And that relationship and the overall characterization seems to draw from the solo comics/cartoons interestingly enough. You get the DCYou design, him working alongside his dad, and a more light-hearted, confident hero. The Cyborg in Doom Patrol has the base qualities of a leading man and the fact there have been scenes that associate him with the League makes it obvious the audience is supposed to do the same.

[Frontier]

But you haven't provided a legit reason why it wouldn't be the end all be all. The only significant difference between Cyborg and those two is that he was the black dude they were pushing in the comics, but agree to disagree I guess.

Yeah, agree to disagree .

Percy's run was subpar (imo of course). The other characters were far too deferential to Damian who was written in an unbearable manner that did a disservice to his character. The characterization was incredibly poor, especially in the first few arcs, and it only slightly improved, but still remained repetitive and boring. It was far from a genuinely good run, along with stilted dialogue and barely above average art.

They were starting to grow out of that deferential period and Damian was written as being in a rough adjustment period from having to balance being on a team with his character development, which I felt Percy did a decent job of (when it didn't involve Kid Flash or the Lazarus Contract). I don't see where the characterization was exceptionally poor compared to the New 52, which was a serious low for the Titans franchise. Jackson could've been more Kaldur-like.

Percy's dialogue read better to me compared to his New 52 Green Arrow run but that's always been a sore spot among fans.

I like Khoi Pham but I guess he's not an "A-list" artist..

I didn't get that vibe at all. They were dealing with a much higher caliber threat than one could expect from a space Titans team, while operating the institutional support of the Justice League. Jessica Cruz is a somewhat experienced Leaguer and Cyborg and Starfire's friendship was barely a major aspect of the initial issues where they were relevant. And now the book is trying to be DC's version of the GotG, so whatever similarities it had to the Titans (legacies and 2 former members) seem to have been shed. There were superficial similarities to the Titans but I think it was firmly a Justice League title.

I mean, the stuff with Blackfire/Tamaraneans and Donna/the Gods felt pretty major when the Titans dealt with them, but I guess it's hard to top Darkseid.

It just never felt much like a Justice League book to me in any of it's variants, but that's just my take on it.

I don't think so. Her costume was bad but hardly the biggest issue with her character during that run. Raven was underwhelming in Rebirth and the Percy run as a whole was weak. Had that awkward romance with black Wally and little in the way of compelling character work other than the standard controlling her emotions arc. Abnett's run turned its wheels the entire time and failed to break any new ground. Another "Miss Martian is a White Martian!" story, another "Chuch of Blood terrorists!" arc, more lecturing from the League, and Nightwing taken off the board. Overall, both were bad with weak dialogue, ok art, and uninspired, lazy plotting. Raven wasn't the worst thing about those books, but she was never a highlight and written about as badly as everyone else (save maybe Beast Boy and Miss Martian).

As much of an eyesore as that costume was, I think it definitely played a part.

I thought Percy had a decent handle on her characterization, and didn't rehash Trigon again for the umpteenth time. I didn't really care for the Wallace relationship either though.

It sounds like Abnett's second Titans run had the same problems his last one did (although Miss Martian hadn't been in the comics for a long while so I don't really think refocusing on her White Martian heritage is all that repetitive).

I seen and spoken with plenty of people who recognize some of the benefits of League membership for Cyborg, so it comes down to the circles you run with. I'm not denying that there aren't many who aren't aware of the character's accomplishments, but I've had experiences that tell me there's many who believe the opposite.

That's good. I'm glad someone other people recognizes that stuff actually did happen to him in those books. It doesn't seem to be the popular opinion on this board...

Yea, a big DCEU appearance, an upcoming HBO Max release to expand on it and a major animated role that retold his origin in the context of League film. Doom Patrol doesn't count, but it isn't contingent on his Titans history either and there's been a clear attempt to signal he has the potential to be a Leaguer. That's more substantial than most of the other Titans members.

Again, I don't think the League stuff is as substantial as it could have been with the critical reception to the movie.

Are we talking about the DC Animated Feature line with Shemar Moore as Cyborg?

He has the potential to be in the League, but he is probably likely to be more involved with the Doom Patrol as long as that series goes on.

It felt like the late Wolfman iteration cranked up a few notches due to the influence of the cartoon's light-heartedness. Markedly less mopey and with increased leadership opportunities. But if you think the cartoon had no influence on the comics then that's fine.

His team up with the Metal Men felt liked a callback to the cartoon days because even though it was technically a serious situation, there was a certain quippyness and self-confidence that felt reminiscent of the cartoon. But it did feel very Doom Patrol, which for what it's worth feels like it draws more from the cartoons than it does the Wolfman run in terms of characterization. Doom Patrol Cyborg is a lot like a more mature version of cartoon Cyborg or the Cyborg we had right before the reboot (which also took from the animated material).

To me that read more as just a natural progression of the character after his character development from the Wolfman era, but to each their own. Young Justice: Outsiders basically did the same in a shorter time span. I guess one could say that a more subdued version of cartoon Cyborg...is basically comic Cyborg.

You're addressing my points as though I'm speaking in absolutes. I'm saying a Cyborg HBO Max show is possible. That a standout appearance in the SynderCut could spark movement on other projects in the DCEU, which to me is greater potential than he would have as just another Titan. Unless you're saying there's absolutely no chance of these projects happening, I don't see how what I'm saying is wrong. There are certain opportunities that come with just being an established character in the DCEU. These opportunities would not even be up for discussion if he were in the same position as Starfire or Beast Boy (neither of whom have appeared in a big-budget live action movie, been rumored for appearances in other films, or their own solo projects). Time will tell if Cyborg projects come out, but at least there's some buzz around it and the chance for that to change.

I'm not speaking in absolutes either, just what I think is likely to happen (or not happen) based on what we know. I think the SnyderCut is being massively overhyped but I could be entirely wrong about that. But releasing that is different from commissioning more stuff with Cavill or Fisher at this point in time in my opinion.

I don't think being in the DCEU is all that much of a boon unless you're Wonder Woman, Shazam, or Aquaman. Even Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn couldn't find success in a film that was basically her movie with a bunch of other women.

I never said a likelihood, just a possibility. DC could decide to do a more mainstream Doom Patrol run and there's a good chance given recent publications that it would be better than the inevitable Titans relaunch. But these are hypotheticals that don't exactly matter since if Cyborg is gonna be in any book it'll either be in the League or Titans. But in the off chance DC decides to do a Doom Patrol with Cy I'd prefer that and expect it to actually contain decent writing.

I just don't see those recent publications as evidence it would be more likely to contain better writing given it's working around far different expectations and content compared to a more mainstream book. But I also don't automatically associate the Titans name with low quality now like others do, so we just have different perspectives on this.

[Holt]

[Frontier]

Those figures look awesome .

[dswynne]

Well, all I can say is that, outside of the Teen Titans Go depiction of Vic, I definitely like Vic's depiction on the live-action version of Doom Patrol. I LIKE a confident Vic has already dealt with his "condition", and sees himself as a superhero and role model. Plus, him being a "straight-laced hero" dealing with the bizarre nature of the DP's myriad of adventures is always a plus in my book.

[dswynne]

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