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  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Max View Post
    Personally, it's nothing I have too much of an opinion on one way or the other, I just thought the story in Justice League Odyssey was headed in that direction until the guy writing it suddenly left. Looking at the possibility of it, though...

    I don't think Starfire or Cyborg should be beholden to Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson who is usually off doing his own thing apart from these characters these days, it seems to me. I actually think it would be a good thing if fans were confronted with the idea that these characters don't need to be set up to facilitate a white male hero. Not necessarily to piss people off, but to work toward putting that paradigm to sleep, or rather present a reasonable alternative. It may have been that way in 1980, but it's literally 40 years later now, and Starfire is her own character allowed to have her own love interests apart from Dick Grayson, just like Dick Grayson has love interests apart from Starfire.


    But I get what you're saying. What should happen isn't necessarily the likely thing to happen, and a relationship between Starfire and Cyborg could potentially create a messy situation where Cyborg comes out on the losing side, thus potentially further diminishing his character in a way. What you're saying is reasonable, but it's also unfortunate that concerns like that even exist, and I'm not sure if they're worth giving credibility, because it just perpetuates a less than ideal situation.
    I definitely agree there was something "there" between them in the beginning. The story for JLO was massively altered early on so I think it's quite likely there were plans for a Cy/Star romance that got cut, especially since it basically got turned into a Jessica Cruz book with little room for anything else. Wouldn't have been opposed had it happened, it's just the TPTB are too incompetent and nostalgia-driven to make it work long term.

    Starfire is so heavily pushed as Dick's main love interest on TV and now live-action that even if they barely see each other in the comics, there's gonna be hesitation to have her move on in any significant capacity. It's a huge disservice to her character and one that prevents a relationship that could enhance another Titan as well, but it's one to consider if we're looking at it from the perspective of building a Cyborg "franchise".

    Which I agree is unfortunate. As others have said, it makes sense and has potential. Though you never know, I think the chances are high that Vic ends up back on a Titans roster in the near future and maybe someone'll have enough balls to put them together. If it's well executed, who knows, maybe it can last at least for a bit. Being fearful of nostalgia hasn't seemed to help DC anyway so why not?

  2. #527
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    I forgot to include her earlier but I'd also put Black Narcissus in his circle as well. She seemed like a decent character that deserves further development

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  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    I forgot to include her earlier but I'd also put Black Narcissus in his circle as well. She seemed like a decent character that deserves further development

    Another Semper Jr. creation, and just as boss as the rest! Completely agree that she needs to be more of a thing.

  4. #529
    Resident Lurker Cyborguy's Avatar
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    I'm glad more people liked Donna. I think at some point she could carry a title of her own. Call me crazy, lol

    Its gonna take somebody in this thread to actually do something with all these puzzle pieces that can form Cyborgs world lol

    Reread JLO after seeing the talk about it. Some cool stuff but lost my interest once Jess became leader. And I'm not opposed to Vic and Kory beconing a thing. It was nice seeing them together again, and not with a bunch of teenagers.
    Last edited by Cyborguy; 09-25-2020 at 06:27 AM.

  5. #530
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Grayven and Mantis could both work well in Vic's rogues gallery, and they're minor enough characters that nobody would miss them. That's the problem with using New Gods like Dessad or Granny; they're too big a part of the Apokolips mythos for Vic to really claim them as his own. An occasional battle? Sure. But regular, permanent parts of the rogues gallery? Never happen. Hell, Mantis might be too big for Cyborg to steal. But I'd be down for it.

    I've also suggested adding Mokkari and Simyan to the list. They run the Evil Factories of Apokolips and churn out most of Darkseid's monsters, so they've got some juice to them, but they're extremely minor players who get, at best, minor cameos and at worst are forgotten completely, so Vic could snatch them up and add them to his rogues gallery without much hassle. They're scientists with a history of cybernetic and genetic experimentation so someone like Vic would definitely get their attention.

    I also think Vic should take the Fearsome Five as his rogues. You've got a great variety of powers and skills in that group, and Vic fighting all of them on his own shows how much he's grown and improved since his youth with the NTT. You've got Gizmo, who could make for a pretty solid archnemesis if he got some effort, you've got a potential femme fatale semi-love interest in Jinx, you've got Mammoth and I'm willing to bet you could build some common ground with the giant monster-looking dude and Vic.....and there's of course tons of history to draw from and build off of.
    Last edited by Ascended; 09-25-2020 at 02:36 PM.
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  6. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    I definitely agree there was something "there" between them in the beginning. The story for JLO was massively altered early on so I think it's quite likely there were plans for a Cy/Star romance that got cut, especially since it basically got turned into a Jessica Cruz book with little room for anything else. Wouldn't have been opposed had it happened, it's just the TPTB are too incompetent and nostalgia-driven to make it work long term.

    Starfire is so heavily pushed as Dick's main love interest on TV and now live-action that even if they barely see each other in the comics, there's gonna be hesitation to have her move on in any significant capacity. It's a huge disservice to her character and one that prevents a relationship that could enhance another Titan as well, but it's one to consider if we're looking at it from the perspective of building a Cyborg "franchise".

    Which I agree is unfortunate. As others have said, it makes sense and has potential. Though you never know, I think the chances are high that Vic ends up back on a Titans roster in the near future and maybe someone'll have enough balls to put them together. If it's well executed, who knows, maybe it can last at least for a bit. Being fearful of nostalgia hasn't seemed to help DC anyway so why not?
    I was going back to collect JLO to see what they were doing with Vic and just lost interest after he was pretty much sidelined for another character. They couldn't have found away to make it work with Vic and Jess leading the team together i guess.

  7. #532
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    I've thought for a while that they should do something romantic with both Starfire and Cyborg. Good to see others think the same. Shame the JLO book didn't explore it. I don't think it matters if it isn't forever or a long lasting romance, because romances in comics all end anyway, but it would just feel more natural to me. The two are close but not so close where it would feel awkward, like a Dick and Donna, and more importantly they have a relationship and friendship that is independent from Dick's relationship with each of them.

    When they tried to push Starfire and Roy the problem there is that they kind of dumped on Dick's character to promote it, and it also didn't help that Dick and Roy have a combative relationship. So in my opinion it was just done very poorly. With Cyborg he and Dick don't have a combative relationship and I don't see them really undercutting Dick's character because Vic is a much better person than Roy and they wouldn't be trying to erase history for it either. Just feels like something both Starfire and Cyborg could both benefit from.

  8. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Grayven and Mantis could both work well in Vic's rogues gallery, and they're minor enough characters that nobody would miss them. That's the problem with using New Gods like Dessad or Granny; they're too big a part of the Apokolips mythos for Vic to really claim them as his own. An occasional battle? Sure. But regular, permanent parts of the rogues gallery? Never happen. Hell, Mantis might be too big for Cyborg to steal. But I'd be down for it.

    I've also suggested adding Mokkari and Simyan to the list. They run the Evil Factories of Apokolips and churn out most of Darkseid's monsters, so they've got some juice to them, but they're extremely minor players who get, at best, minor cameos and at worst are forgotten completely, so Vic could snatch them up and add them to his rogues gallery without much hassle. They're scientists with a history of cybernetic and genetic experimentation so someone like Vic would definitely get their attention.

    I also think Vic should take the Fearsome Five as his rogues. You've got a great variety of powers and skills in that group, and Vic fighting all of them on his own shows how much he's grown and improved since his youth with the NTT. You've got Gizmo, who could make for a pretty solid archnemesis if he got some effort, you've got a potential femme fatale semi-love interest in Jinx, you've got Mammoth and I'm willing to bet you could build some common ground with the giant monster-looking dude and Vic.....and there's of course tons of history to draw from and build off of.
    Yea the way I look at it the major New Gods are physical manifestations of universal, or more appropriately, multiversal concepts and ideas. Grayven works as Cyborg villain because like his half-brothers Orion and Kalibak, he can be a representation of an aspect of war. Orion is noble, righteous war in the pursuit of peace. Kalibak is bloodlust and wanton destruction. Grayven could be that shady middle ground; the war profiteer, the sex trafficker, the bankers, all the institutions and ideas behind exploiting war. I think Intergang is a great tool for him, even though it's more a general DCU villain.

    I've seen Mokkari and Simyan thrown around as potential rogues and I agree 100%. Them and the Evil Factory have a bunch of story telling possibilities and they're definitely obscure enough to use in Cyborg stories.

    My issue with the Fearsome Five as rogues is that they're still technically able to take on the Titans collectively. They may be lackluster villains but they're not the type of team I think Vic should be taking on by himself when his friends still struggle to take them down together. You risk making the Titans look incompetent and downplaying the Five as a team-busting threat.

    I'm a huge advocate of having individual members make appearances in Vic's book though. I like to think that while they spend a lot of time together, the Five spend time apart on solo merc jobs and such. It'd be a great way to have him come across Gizmo and give him some characterization. Or to have Jinx finally turn good and maybe work for SHADE as a tenuous ally.

  9. #534
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    I think Amazo would make a good villain for Cyborg.

  10. #535
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I think having a villain who epitomizes bioengineering would make a good villain as well. That way you can explore stuff like gene editing vs. cybernetic augmentation as branching paths of human evolution. What’s better, giving yourself the eyesight of a hawk, or plucking your eyes out and putting in artificial ones, stuff like that.

  11. #536
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    Ultra Humanite would be a great villain for Cyborg, both of them represent different aspects of transhumanism: Cyborg is the modern version replacing flesh with cybernetics, Ultra Huamite is the old school version transferring the mind to a different body.

  12. #537
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Grayven and Mantis could both work well in Vic's rogues gallery, and they're minor enough characters that nobody would miss them. That's the problem with using New Gods like Dessad or Granny; they're too big a part of the Apokolips mythos for Vic to really claim them as his own. An occasional battle? Sure. But regular, permanent parts of the rogues gallery? Never happen. Hell, Mantis might be too big for Cyborg to steal. But I'd be down for it.

    I've also suggested adding Mokkari and Simyan to the list. They run the Evil Factories of Apokolips and churn out most of Darkseid's monsters, so they've got some juice to them, but they're extremely minor players who get, at best, minor cameos and at worst are forgotten completely, so Vic could snatch them up and add them to his rogues gallery without much hassle. They're scientists with a history of cybernetic and genetic experimentation so someone like Vic would definitely get their attention.

    I also think Vic should take the Fearsome Five as his rogues. You've got a great variety of powers and skills in that group, and Vic fighting all of them on his own shows how much he's grown and improved since his youth with the NTT. You've got Gizmo, who could make for a pretty solid archnemesis if he got some effort, you've got a potential femme fatale semi-love interest in Jinx, you've got Mammoth and I'm willing to bet you could build some common ground with the giant monster-looking dude and Vic.....and there's of course tons of history to draw from and build off of.
    Yeah my version of the FF for Vic is Gizmo, Shimmer, Mammoth, Magenta, and Nano.
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  13. #538
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    I have a few ideas for main villains for Cyborg:
    Mammoth - Aggressive jock Shawn Dawson Jr. comes from a backwards city who uses a drug to make himself stronger, faster, more aggressive etc. One day his team is fighting Cyborg's old football team when the drug goes overboard and Mammoth (which is a nickname for him for his tough pre-mutated nature) mutates into a primitive creature who almost kills the the other team until Cyborg steps in, who was watching the game after coming home from a mission, and takes him down in a tough battle. I was going for Progressive vs Primitive foil with Mammoth being a caveman like creature from a racist "hick" town fighting Cyborg a black hero using technology.

    Shimmer - A young metahuman named Katy Osterman who is transferred from science lab to science lab so scientists can try to understand her powers of matter manipulation but she doesn't really care about understanding and now just wants to steal and hurt people but Cyborg tries to talk her down into a life of not hurting people.

    Gizmo - A genius who tries to prove he is smarter then some "robot jock"

    Red X - Master thief who is hired by a mysterious client to steal parts of Cyborg that belonged to the client

  14. #539
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    My issue with the Fearsome Five as rogues is that they're still technically able to take on the Titans collectively. They may be lackluster villains but they're not the type of team I think Vic should be taking on by himself when his friends still struggle to take them down together. You risk making the Titans look incompetent and downplaying the Five as a team-busting threat.

    I'm a huge advocate of having individual members make appearances in Vic's book though. I like to think that while they spend a lot of time together, the Five spend time apart on solo merc jobs and such. It'd be a great way to have him come across Gizmo and give him some characterization. Or to have Jinx finally turn good and maybe work for SHADE as a tenuous ally.
    Well DC already makes the Titans look incompetent so Vic taking down the Five by himself isn't gonna hurt what's already dead.

    I look at it like this; there's no drama left in the Titans (as a team) fighting the Five. They've been doing that since they were kids and it's played out. We've watched the Titans grow, becoming more experienced and powerful, and while the Five have done the same in theory, we don't see it. So it ends up looking like a NBA team playing against their old high school rivals, but those rivals are still in high school and are not any better at the game than they used to be. It ends up looking like the Titans are either punching down, or haven't become any more effective than they were at 16, and it's underwhelming either way. If the Five had been shown to grow and improve as the Titans have, it'd be a different story but for the most part the Five are just using the same old tricks with the same old powers and limitations. We've seen the Titans grow, we haven't seen the Five do the same.

    And Vic's a Fourth World demigod now. DC acts like the only thing that did was let him open Boom Tubes, but if they gave a **** and wrote this to its potential then Vic has seen a power upgrade well beyond anything any other Titan or Titan villain has seen (except maybe Wally). Vic should be operating on a Superman-like scale and scope now, and the idea that he needs the old Titans gang to handle the Five is sort of like Superman needing the entire League to take down Toyman. It's overkill. But with Vic on his own and the Five focused on him instead of having to split their attention between Titans, they have a chance of being dangerous; they've got the numbers advantage, their combined powerset means Vic has to deploy multiple countermeasures to contain them....it could strain Vic's abilities if he's on his own, and you could get a good fight out of it with real stakes in a believable way I just don't think you can accomplish with the full Titans team anymore.

    But I'm a big advocate of the NTT being written as more competent than DC usually allows. If I had my way, most of the old Titans villains would be given to individual Titans now; Nightwing would be handling the HIVE on his own, Vic would be dealing with the Five himself, Kori would be taking on Gordanian invasions single handed, etc. I want to show that the NTT aren't kids anymore, that they've grown up to equal (if not surpass) their mentors. And if they still all need help to deal with threats they faced as kids? They don't look very competent or improved, they look like they stalled out in high school.

    I mean, nobody is going to accept Wally West struggling to deal with the Mad Mod right? Wally became (much, much) faster and more experienced and learned new things and we wouldn't believe that the Mad Mod is a legit threat to him now like we would when Wally was a kid. So why is Vic any different? He should be one of the most powerful beings in the universe now and the idea that he still needs help to deal with a group like the Five? I just don't buy it.
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  15. #540
    Resident Lurker Cyborguy's Avatar
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    Well said, Ascended. I'd like Vic to take on more world ending threats like Superman at some point. Not all the time, but if he got a cosmic baddie of his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    I have a few ideas for main villains for Cyborg:
    Mammoth - Aggressive jock Shawn Dawson Jr. comes from a backwards city who uses a drug to make himself stronger, faster, more aggressive etc. One day his team is fighting Cyborg's old football team when the drug goes overboard and Mammoth (which is a nickname for him for his tough pre-mutated nature) mutates into a primitive creature who almost kills the the other team until Cyborg steps in, who was watching the game after coming home from a mission, and takes him down in a tough battle. I was going for Progressive vs Primitive foil with Mammoth being a caveman like creature from a racist "hick" town fighting Cyborg a black hero using technology.

    Shimmer - A young metahuman named Katy Osterman who is transferred from science lab to science lab so scientists can try to understand her powers of matter manipulation but she doesn't really care about understanding and now just wants to steal and hurt people but Cyborg tries to talk her down into a life of not hurting people.

    Gizmo - A genius who tries to prove he is smarter then some "robot jock"

    Red X - Master thief who is hired by a mysterious client to steal parts of Cyborg that belonged to the client
    I'm definitely in favor of Vic taking old Titans villains. They always rehash the same stories with those characters anyways. Cool stuff.

    I didnt realize two of the names I used for "new" Cyborg villains happened to share names from other characters Titans had encountered: Aurora and Warp. A subconscious thing lol. I reimagined the latter as a college dropout who was gifted, but life got in the way and he needed to make money and used the tech he designed to become a thief for hire for gangs or what have you. His girlfriend didn't want to get caught up with that and leaves him, taking their child.

    I'd keep the OG Warp around tho, but I probably wouldn't use him aside from maybe him learning theres another guy with his name and he wants to know what's that about.

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