Victor Stone: Cyborg Appreciation 2020

[lemonpeace]

I think the article made a lot of good points. However, it also unintentionally dabbled in some ugly beliefs about black masculinity and black people on its own end and complained about issues that weren't actually issues at all.

it's been a while since I've read it, maybe I'm looking back on it with rose-colored glasses because I felt that at it's core the point it was making about the dehumanization of the black body via Cyborg was a poignant and important one. regardless, ultimately I feel that is the biggest issue DC has with Cyborg. It goes back to the Walker thing, they weren't interested his take on Vic as black man first that he wanted to explore, they just wanted a robot with a black face to color the background of Justice League roster with. I mean this Cybeast idea, just looking at it, gives you a pretty good idea of what parts of Cyborg DC actually cares about.

I say that while also acknowledging that it may be unfair to judge this book so harshly before it comes out because of DC's terrible track record. maybe it's a brief, but significant, thing that happened so they threw it on the cover. iunno, everything is in execution, but it's just amazing that DC has so little idea what to do with a cybernetic character in the cybernetic times we live in.

[Holt]

I'm a black dude and I absolutely had an issue with the whole dick situation. It feeds into the overall complaint a lot of fans have about Cyborg not working as DC's big premier black hero when the story goes out if its way at every turn to show you how much his life sucks.

[Agent Z]

I'm a black dude and I absolutely had an issue with the whole dick situation. It feeds into the overall complaint a lot of fans have about Cyborg not working as DC's big premier black hero when the story goes out if its way at every turn to show you how much his life sucks.

I get that, but people still kept complaining about it even after David Walker undid it.

[Agent Z]

it's been a while since I've read it, maybe I'm looking back on it with rose-colored glasses because I felt that at it's core the point it was making about the dehumanization of the black body via Cyborg was a poignant and important one. regardless, ultimately I feel that is the biggest issue DC has with Cyborg. It goes back to the Walker thing, they weren't interested his take on Vic as black man first that he wanted to explore, they just wanted a robot with a black face to color the background of Justice League roster with. I mean this Cybeast idea, just looking at it, gives you a pretty good idea of what parts of Cyborg DC actually cares about.

I say that while also acknowledging that it may be unfair to judge this book so harshly before it comes out because of DC's terrible track record. maybe it's a brief, but significant, thing that happened so they threw it on the cover. iunno, everything is in execution, but it's just amazing that DC has so little idea what to do with a cybernetic character in the cybernetic times we live in.

The article just had contradictory and outright insulting messages at times.

One example was when it complained about Victor not being attracted to Wonder Woman even though Victor has never shown such an attraction to her and historically has his own love interests. Then he went on to criticize the relationship between Victor and Sara Simms for being an all too common interracial relationship where one half of the couple is white. Which I actually agreed with but then why include the bit about Victor not being attracted to Wonder Woman?

Then there's the criticisms about the relationship Victor had with his father where he called it racist because Victor and Silas had a flawed relationship that they ultimately worked out. Or how he complained that it was racist that Victor ended up maimed by an accident at his father's lab.

Like I said, the article did raise good points but had some parts that made no sense and the original discussion on CBR just seemed to attract people who didn't like Victor to begin with and hated he was on the League instead of John, Vixen or whatever black superhero they liked best. And of course, it brought out people with ugly and outdated views on masculinity that tended to be based on shallow stuff like how many women you bed, how many guys you can beat and make afraid of you, etc. I've seen similar attitudes and bad faith arguments among the Black Panther fandom ever since Ta-Nehisi Coates started writing even when I did agree with some of the criticisms of his writing.

[Cyborguy]

Working on another Cyborg drawing.
20201110_160142.jpg

20201114_094459.jpg

The inked one is a concept sketch of it. Originally thought of his chest showing like his original look with some heavy DCYou inspo as that's my fave Cyborg design.

[Frontier]

Working on another Cyborg drawing.
20201110_160142.jpg

20201114_094459.jpg

The inked one is a concept sketch of it. Originally thought of his chest showing like his original look with some heavy DCYou inspo as that's my fave Cyborg design.

Nice design work and art .

[Iconic]

I'm a black dude and I absolutely had an issue with the whole dick situation. It feeds into the overall complaint a lot of fans have about Cyborg not working as DC's big premier black hero when the story goes out if its way at every turn to show you how much his life sucks.

It was like, “Hey, look at our premier hero of color in our premier team book of white power fantasy characters! Look how much his life sucks. Watch as he buses the League to their desired destinations. Admire how he constantly questions his own humanity. Notice how we limit his black skin to just 3/5ths of his face. It’s just like the good ol’ days!”

Also, the only people who had a problem with the look of David Walker’s Cyborg were people who never liked Cyborg in the first place. They were irrelevant.

[Vordan]

The one black character on the League being the one who doesn’t get to revel in being a power fantasy and has to constantly bemoan how much his life sucks was a bad choice. Especially given how little he ended up mattering. I think Cyborg’s days of being on the League are over though to be honest. I expect him to go back to the Titans.

It was like, “Hey, look at our premier hero of color in our premier team book of white power fantasy characters! Look how much his life sucks. Watch as he buses the League to their desired destinations. Admire how he constantly questions his own humanity. Notice how we limit his black skin to just 3/5ths of his face. It’s just like the good ol’ days!”

Also, the only people who had a problem with the look of David Walker’s Cyborg were people who never liked Cyborg in the first place. They were irrelevant.

Goddamn man, that’s brutal.

[skyvolt2000]

The article just had contradictory and outright insulting messages at times.

Remember who the writer is. He has some nasty things to say about Lion Forge's Noble when the wife mentioned in a flashback about black on black violence under a new writer (Kevin G). Even got the previous writer joining in the bashing. So insulting stuff was going to happen.

the original discussion on CBR just seemed to attract people who didn't like Victor to begin with and hated he was on the League instead of John, Vixen or whatever black superhero they liked best.

It was not about favorites.
It was about pandering to certain parts of the fandom.

Also with DC there is this there can be only ONE mess. So the black character DC claims to invest in-a guy missing body parts. While everyone else who is black in badly done books, editorial sabotaged books, in books NO ONE WANTED TO DO, in limbo, ticking off Tim Drake fans, ticking off Wally West fans or slated to be killed off. So that adds to the frustration that the "investment" is in someone viewed less than a man.

Baldwin's gripe is more from an OVERALL standpoint versus a single point.

The lack of genitals, not being in relationships, in the background and so on-that was not limited to Cyborg. That has been an issue with MANY black characters.
Asexaul guys that you see forever on super hero duty.
If we see a relationship-it's a SHADE FEST by an entire office towards another franchise-right Black Panther?

[Tzigone]

It was like, “Hey, look at our premier hero of color in our premier team book of white power fantasy characters! Look how much his life sucks. Watch as he buses the League to their desired destinations. Admire how he constantly questions his own humanity. Notice how we limit his black skin to just 3/5ths of his face. It’s just like the good ol’ days!”

Also, the only people who had a problem with the look of David Walker’s Cyborg were people who never liked Cyborg in the first place. They were irrelevant.

It sounds to me more like you wanted "premiere black hero" than you wanted. Vic. Just create a new one then, if you are going to erase all his history with the Titans (or for him to remain associated with them), his look, his history in other matters, his primary emotional struggle in his early days (which I absolutely think should not be repeated over and over). Is there anything about Victor Stone, the pre-existing character before 2011, that you actually like?

[skyvolt2000]

It was like, “Hey, look at our premier hero of color in our premier team book of white power fantasy characters! Look how much his life sucks. Watch as he buses the League to their desired destinations. Admire how he constantly questions his own humanity. Notice how we limit his black skin to just 3/5ths of his face. It’s just like the good ol’ days!”

Also, the only people who had a problem with the look of David Walker’s Cyborg were people who never liked Cyborg in the first place. They were irrelevant.

Don't forget what we heard from editorial about Cyborg's look.

He can't change because that look is ICONIC.

Excluding Hal Jordan & Barry Allen (maybe Superman)-everyone else is walking around in a different outfit than the outfit that made them ICONS.

Wonder Woman is not walking around like Lynda Carter's WW.
Batman sure is NOT.
Nor is the various Robins.
Nor Supergirl.
Nor Harley.
Nor Luke Cage, Falcon, Black Panther, Storm, Iron Man, Thor and so on.

SO why can't Cyborg? Even If it's Doom Patrol look Cyborg.

[Holt]

It sounds to me more like you wanted "premiere black hero" than you wanted Vic.

I absolutely think Vic was a poor fit for the top spot, or, more accurately, the conception of Vic they chose to go with in the New 52. And I actually like (pre-New 52) Vic a great deal, it's just that the reasons everyone has brought up make him a poor fit for that role. I honestly would've been fine with him on the Justice League had they not overhauled his design and erased his history with the Titans and all the character development that came with it.

[Iconic]

It sounds to me more like you wanted "premiere black hero" than you wanted. Vic. Just create a new one then, if you are going to erase all his history with the Titans (or for him to remain associated with them), his look, his history in other matters, his primary emotional struggle in his early days (which I absolutely think should not be repeated over and over). Is there anything about Victor Stone, the pre-existing character before 2011, that you actually like?

You misread my post. My thoughts are mostly about his look. His early look showed more flesh than currently. Where’s the power fantasy? Where’s the growth out of “am I human?”

Don't forget what we heard from editorial about Cyborg's look.

He can't change because that look is ICONIC.

Excluding Hal Jordan & Barry Allen (maybe Superman)-everyone else is walking around in a different outfit than the outfit that made them ICONS.

Wonder Woman is not walking around like Lynda Carter's WW.
Batman sure is NOT.
Nor is the various Robins.
Nor Supergirl.
Nor Harley.
Nor Luke Cage, Falcon, Black Panther, Storm, Iron Man, Thor and so on.

SO why can't Cyborg? Even If it's Doom Patrol look Cyborg.

This.

[Cyborguy]

Nice design work and art .

Thank you. Love drawing Vic and still trying to nail my take on the character.

[Agent Z]

Remember who the writer is. He has some nasty things to say about Lion Forge's Noble when the wife mentioned in a flashback about black on black violence under a new writer (Kevin G). Even got the previous writer joining in the bashing. So insulting stuff was going to happen.



It was not about favorites.
It was about pandering to certain parts of the fandom.

Also with DC there is this there can be only ONE mess. So the black character DC claims to invest in-a guy missing body parts. While everyone else who is black in badly done books, editorial sabotaged books, in books NO ONE WANTED TO DO, in limbo, ticking off Tim Drake fans, ticking off Wally West fans or slated to be killed off. So that adds to the frustration that the "investment" is in someone viewed less than a man.

Baldwin's gripe is more from an OVERALL standpoint versus a single point.

The lack of genitals, not being in relationships, in the background and so on-that was not limited to Cyborg. That has been an issue with MANY black characters.
Asexaul guys that you see forever on super hero duty.
If we see a relationship-it's a SHADE FEST by an entire office towards another franchise-right Black Panther?

Like who? Of all the issues black characters have had, when has this ever been one of them aside from Victor?