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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    A big question I have is, should Mysterio be more actively unsympathetic like he is the Far From Home? I feel like Mysterio works better as a more actively unsympathetic villain than one with a sob story or just some generic bank robber. Really, his gimmick and obsession with mind games are not pleasant and having Mysterio just commit generic crimes is pretty dull for a villain with such a unique M.O. Some villains like Shocker should be made more sympathetic, but Mysterio should be the opposite case. I think Mysterio should not afraid to draw blood or using cruel mind games against nor only Spidey, but other innocent people who get his way.
    Quentin is unsympathetic, that's part of what makes him charming. He's a fun villain who has fun with what he does.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    Quentin is unsympathetic, that's part of what makes him charming. He's a fun villain who has fun with what he does.
    But if he is unsympathetic, he has to represent real stakes, not just petty thievery or giving Spidey an acid trip once and a while, he should more willing to kill innocents over say Rhino or Sandman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Personally, Guardian Devil could've been that point where he was beyond redemption, as the scheme he pulled off there got a number of innocent people killed (including Karen Page), and it was all done because Mysterio was dying of cancer and wanted to be remembered after he died as a great villain.
    But how often is that story and its fallout mentioned in the Spidey books?
    Last edited by The Overlord; 01-23-2020 at 01:54 PM.

  3. #33
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    But if he is unsympathetic, he has to represent real stakes, not just petty thievery or giving Spidey an acid trip once and a while, he should more willing to kill innocents over say Rhino or Sandman.



    But how often is that story and its fallout mentioned in the Spidey books?
    Sadly, not very. Mostly because it happened in Daredevil and Spider-Man's only part in it was making a cameo in the final issue of that arc to try to comfort and reassure Daredevil (how I miss the days when those two knew who each other were) --- and that, after blaming himself for Mysterio's final act of villainy.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Sadly, not very. Mostly because it happened in Daredevil and Spider-Man's only part in it was making a cameo in the final issue of that arc to try to comfort and reassure Daredevil (how I miss the days when those two knew who each other were) --- and that, after blaming himself for Mysterio's final act of villainy.
    Yeah and the last time Mysterio's villainy from Guardian Devil was mentioned in any real way was over 20 years ago. Mysterio does not have to be as gruesome as he is in that story, but let's face it, a villain who gaslights people is fundamental unsympathetic, may as well go whole hog and make his schemes more destructive than the average Spidey villain's, like Rhino or Sandman. Really a willingness to kill innocent is a big line to cross and not every villain should cross it, but Mysterio should cross that line, there is no reason for him not to.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    But if he is unsympathetic, he has to represent real stakes, not just petty thievery or giving Spidey an acid trip once and a while, he should more willing to kill innocents over say Rhino or Sandman.
    Hmm, it begs the question if the ONLY way for "stakes" to be present is for the character to become a common murderer? Should Mysterio go out of his way to kill innocent people just to raise the "threat" level? It reminds me of how DC tried to make Dr Light more villainous. The way I see it, I don't think Mysterio minds if people die during one of his grandiose crimes, but he doesn't really center his crime around murder to become someone who "kills people with polka dots". When it comes to a showman like Mysterio, stuff has to be planned well in advance to really work (provided he actually studies the areas and plants things like bombs, robotics, and projectors in optimal spaces to make things seem real). If it just happens to be in a populated area where it can be dangerous to a lot of people? Oh well. The scheme is STILL going off because people need to WITNESS the brilliance of Mysterio! To have him fill graveyards each appearance seems a bit...cartoonish and leads to Kletus Cassidy levels of "unsympathetic" and rather one note in which you think "what else you got?".

    Mysterio seems to be ripe for psychological torture due to his theme. Not just to Spider-Man, but to ANYONE. Evil tends to be petty, and things like Mysterio driving someone crazy simply because they said he wasn't a good actor when he was in college seems like something he would do. He could have someone guessing if things exist or are simply an illusion.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Hmm, it begs the question if the ONLY way for "stakes" to be present is for the character to become a common murderer? Should Mysterio go out of his way to kill innocent people just to raise the "threat" level?
    That's a general problem with superhero movies across the board rather than just Mysterio as a character. Stakes are always "world-ender" level and life-and-death level.

    To do Mysterio right you need a story or plot similar to Christopher Nolan's movies, and I mean stuff like Inception and The Prestige rather than the Dark Knight movies. The stakes in Inception and The Prestige aren't world-ender level, it's entirely about a small set of characters and the games they play. I mean the second Mysterio story in ASM, I think ASM#24 with Ludwig Rinehart is very Proto-Nolan-esque especially the panel where Spider-Man enters a room and it's upside-down.

    I also think JMD's Webspinners take is also great.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Hmm, it begs the question if the ONLY way for "stakes" to be present is for the character to become a common murderer? Should Mysterio go out of his way to kill innocent people just to raise the "threat" level? It reminds me of how DC tried to make Dr Light more villainous. The way I see it, I don't think Mysterio minds if people die during one of his grandiose crimes, but he doesn't really center his crime around murder to become someone who "kills people with polka dots". When it comes to a showman like Mysterio, stuff has to be planned well in advance to really work (provided he actually studies the areas and plants things like bombs, robotics, and projectors in optimal spaces to make things seem real). If it just happens to be in a populated area where it can be dangerous to a lot of people? Oh well. The scheme is STILL going off because people need to WITNESS the brilliance of Mysterio! To have him fill graveyards each appearance seems a bit...cartoonish and leads to Kletus Cassidy levels of "unsympathetic" and rather one note in which you think "what else you got?".

    Mysterio seems to be ripe for psychological torture due to his theme. Not just to Spider-Man, but to ANYONE. Evil tends to be petty, and things like Mysterio driving someone crazy simply because they said he wasn't a good actor when he was in college seems like something he would do. He could have someone guessing if things exist or are simply an illusion.
    Is a common petty criminal better than a common murderer, because that seems to be the default for lazy writers do with him.

    If Shocker, Vulture, Rhino, Sandman, Electro, and Mysterio are all just petty criminals, what different stakes do they represent? I am not saying he has to kill 100 people each time he appears, but having cruelly gaslighting a bunch of people is also effective in making him unsympathetic, I am saying he should be more willing to cross than say Rhino or Sandman, heck I think having Shocker cross that line was a mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's a general problem with superhero movies across the board rather than just Mysterio as a character. Stakes are always "world-ender" level and life-and-death level.

    To do Mysterio right you need a story or plot similar to Christopher Nolan's movies, and I mean stuff like Inception and The Prestige rather than the Dark Knight movies. The stakes in Inception and The Prestige aren't world-ender level, it's entirely about a small set of characters and the games they play. I mean the second Mysterio story in ASM, I think ASM#24 with Ludwig Rinehart is very Proto-Nolan-esque especially the panel where Spider-Man enters a room and it's upside-down.

    I also think JMD's Webspinners take is also great.
    He can't just keep on giving Spidey bad acid trips, after a while that gets old, he should branch something different, if he wants fame, infamy is the easiest route. Mysterio pulling the same trick on Spidey and failing at it will make him seem like a loser after a while.

    There is a huge middle ground between world-ending threats and the only stakes are whether a bank will have to pay a higher insurance rate tomorrow.

    If you have a villain who just robs banks, they should be given more redeeming qualities to compensate for the lack of the stakes they represent, that go out of their way not hurt people and they can be compelling on how likable they are, but an unsympathetic villain has to aim higher than just attacking the hero and petty criminality. All villains attack the hero, that's not unique, a good villain should do more than just attack the hero.

    Yeah not every villain has to be a serial killer, but if almost every villain is just a petty criminal, that is not very interesting either, if you have a villain who represents no stakes and has no redeeming qualities, that is a dull villain.

    The whole ''professional criminal who is only out for a quick buck'', is not interesting in of itself, unless you add layers to that character or have him do something different, it is not a very compelling villain.

    If I had my way, I would make Shocker more actively sympathetic and have Mysterio be more actively unsympathetic.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 01-24-2020 at 06:12 PM.

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