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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    This is one time when retconning a retcon to make it on the same wavelength as the original story is not a pleasant idea.


    Hooray for this post.
    I thought that story was drawn entirely by Keith Pollard.
    Keith Pollard was the artist in ASM#197 and 200 for example,Sal Buscema painted the art in issue #198 and 199 featuring Mysterio.

  2. #17
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    I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again. They may not have thought about it too much during his conception, but Mysterio is a retcon goldmine. Do we have a retcon via Mysterio yet?

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again. They may not have thought about it too much during his conception, but Mysterio is a retcon goldmine. Do we have a retcon via Mysterio yet?
    He helped fake Harry's death.

  4. #19
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    A big question I have is, should Mysterio be more actively unsympathetic like he is the Far From Home? I feel like Mysterio works better as a more actively unsympathetic villain than one with a sob story or just some generic bank robber. Really, his gimmick and obsession with mind games are not pleasant and having Mysterio just commit generic crimes is pretty dull for a villain with such a unique M.O. Some villains like Shocker should be made more sympathetic, but Mysterio should be the opposite case. I think Mysterio should not afraid to draw blood or using cruel mind games against nor only Spidey, but other innocent people who get his way.

  5. #20
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    A big question I have is, should Mysterio be more actively unsympathetic like he is the Far From Home? I feel like Mysterio works better as a more actively unsympathetic villain than one with a sob story or just some generic bank robber. Really, his gimmick and obsession with mind games are not pleasant and having Mysterio just commit generic crimes is pretty dull for a villain with such a unique M.O. Some villains like Shocker should be made more sympathetic, but Mysterio should be the opposite case. I think Mysterio should not afraid to draw blood or using cruel mind games against nor only Spidey, but other innocent people who get his way.
    Absolutely agree, Sandman and Rhino already take that role, at least for me.

    Mysterio should be full antagonist and able to carry his own arcs, not just a recurring enforcer that Spiderman needs to beat up in his way to the main antagonist.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    A big question I have is, should Mysterio be more actively unsympathetic like he is the Far From Home?
    The problem with Far From Home is that Mysterio is anchored to Tony Stark rather than a free agent and independent actor. That's also the problem with Vulture. IT's a good idea in theory but what it achieves is an air of frustration because this doesn't actually amount to any criticism of Tony Stark or Iron Man nor does it make the villains truly work specifically in confrontation with Spider-Man.

    And his entire genius is basically down to drones and more drones.

    So that does feel like cheapening. Mysterio is at heart an artist and creator. He actually loves being Mysterio and using his stuff. So even when he does horrible stuff and so on, you need to establish that complexity. Amazing Mary Jane does that well.

    I feel like Mysterio works better as a more actively unsympathetic villain than one with a sob story or just some generic bank robber.
    Mysterio doesn't need a sob story. But he needs to have an air of being a talented but frustrated artist who enjoys his schemes.

    Likewise, I don't think Mysterio should ever learn or know Peter Parker's identity. First and foremost, his rivalry is with Spider-Man.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The problem with Far From Home is that Mysterio is anchored to Tony Stark rather than a free agent and independent actor. That's also the problem with Vulture. IT's a good idea in theory but what it achieves is an air of frustration because this doesn't actually amount to any criticism of Tony Stark or Iron Man nor does it make the villains truly work specifically in confrontation with Spider-Man.

    And his entire genius is basically down to drones and more drones.

    So that does feel like cheapening. Mysterio is at heart an artist and creator. He actually loves being Mysterio and using his stuff. So even when he does horrible stuff and so on, you need to establish that complexity. Amazing Mary Jane does that well.



    Mysterio doesn't need a sob story. But he needs to have an air of being a talented but frustrated artist who enjoys his schemes.

    Likewise, I don't think Mysterio should ever learn or know Peter Parker's identity. First and foremost, his rivalry is with Spider-Man.
    I am talking about his characterization, not his abilities.

    Mysterio shouldn't waste his time with petty thievery or getting defeated by Power Pack while trying to scare people out of an apartment.

    The problem in the comics is they often just make him into a generic villain and in Far From Home, his schemes seemed far more devastating in that movie than most of his comic book capers, it seems like in that film he was aiming for a higher body count than he does in the comics usually. In the comics, his scheme often seem like generic villainy and Mysterio seeing himself as an artist should make him more twisted, it should not be sympathetic, he is a psychopath obsessed with fame and he should be crueler than the likes of Sandman or Rhino (but maybe not on the level of Green Goblin or Carnage).

    Guardian Devil may have made Mysterio a little too gruesome, but that is a step in the right direction.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    The problem in the comics is they often just make him into a generic villain and in Far From Home, his schemes seemed far more devastating in that movie than most of his comic book capers,
    That's a classic DC post-crisis gag, commonly seen in Batman titles. Take a joke villain, and make him a serial killer. Calendar Man = Serial Killer, Mad Hatter = Serial Killer and so on.

    I agree with you that his schemes there are too high level to work. But this is a problem for all Spider-Man villains since the first. The fact is the first movie started with Green Goblin and Sony's strategy since then, has been to make every villain into the Green Goblin.

    So characters who have no personal connection to Peter in the comics -- Doctor Octopus (Spider-Man 2), The Sandman (Spider-Man 3), Electro (ASM-2) were altered to have personal connections to Peter, to have quasi-sympathetic motivations for their deranged schemes, to make them also fit the theme of "power and responsibility" just to make them fit as foils to Peter's story. That ends up making every on-screen villian in the Spider-Man movies same-y. That scene where Peter arrives at Liz Toomes' home and meets Vulture is basically the Thanksgiving scene from Spider-Man 1 all over again. Now it seems Sony have set their sights on Kraven and boy will they f--k him up because the entire point of Kraven is that he absolutely has no interest in who Spider-Man is behind his mask. For him Spider-Man is his main interest.

    Guardian Devil may have made Mysterio a little too gruesome, but that is a step in the right direction.
    Guardian Devil is highly overrated and cut from the same cloth as Far From Home.

  9. #24
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's a classic DC post-crisis gag, commonly seen in Batman titles. Take a joke villain, and make him a serial killer. Calendar Man = Serial Killer, Mad Hatter = Serial Killer and so on.

    I agree with you that his schemes there are too high level to work. But this is a problem for all Spider-Man villains since the first. The fact is the first movie started with Green Goblin and Sony's strategy since then, has been to make every villain into the Green Goblin.

    So characters who have no personal connection to Peter in the comics -- Doctor Octopus (Spider-Man 2), The Sandman (Spider-Man 3), Electro (ASM-2) were altered to have personal connections to Peter, to have quasi-sympathetic motivations for their deranged schemes, to make them also fit the theme of "power and responsibility" just to make them fit as foils to Peter's story. That ends up making every on-screen villian in the Spider-Man movies same-y. That scene where Peter arrives at Liz Toomes' home and meets Vulture is basically the Thanksgiving scene from Spider-Man 1 all over again. Now it seems Sony have set their sights on Kraven and boy will they f--k him up because the entire point of Kraven is that he absolutely has no interest in who Spider-Man is behind his mask. For him Spider-Man is his main interest.



    Guardian Devil is highly overrated and cut from the same cloth as Far From Home.
    Oh, do buzz off. This is an appreciation thread and you've turned it into your many rant pieces that have no bearing on the actual topic.
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Oh, do buzz off. This is an appreciation thread and you've turned it into your many rant pieces that have no bearing on the actual topic.
    To be fair, he does bring up a valid point.

    How do you make a villain a valid threat without A. simply making them a mass murderer or B. connecting them to the hero in a personal way? The former can especially get egregious to the point that its even more laughable than when they were a joke (remember Mr. Polka Dot/Polka Dot Man? He kills people with polka dots)

    Methinks with Mysterio, they have deemed to turn him into too much of a joke. That said, he's a showman and I could see him being unsympathetic as he would definitely would want to show that he is the greatest criminal mastermind who ever lived. Unlike some, he knows what he does is wrong, (so he's not delusional or crazy) he just enjoys doing it. Murder wouldn't be the main thing on The Three Stooges' Moe's agenda, but he sure isn't opposed to it. Sometimes some of his schemes could be done just to show that he can. Whether that be conning people into thinking he's reformed, sending the city into chaos for amusement, or pitting crime bosses against each other to siphon their resources, etc. Quentin is frankly, kind of a jerk.
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 01-21-2020 at 12:34 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's a classic DC post-crisis gag, commonly seen in Batman titles. Take a joke villain, and make him a serial killer. Calendar Man = Serial Killer, Mad Hatter = Serial Killer and so on.

    I agree with you that his schemes there are too high level to work. But this is a problem for all Spider-Man villains since the first. The fact is the first movie started with Green Goblin and Sony's strategy since then, has been to make every villain into the Green Goblin.

    So characters who have no personal connection to Peter in the comics -- Doctor Octopus (Spider-Man 2), The Sandman (Spider-Man 3), Electro (ASM-2) were altered to have personal connections to Peter, to have quasi-sympathetic motivations for their deranged schemes, to make them also fit the theme of "power and responsibility" just to make them fit as foils to Peter's story. That ends up making every on-screen villian in the Spider-Man movies same-y. That scene where Peter arrives at Liz Toomes' home and meets Vulture is basically the Thanksgiving scene from Spider-Man 1 all over again. Now it seems Sony have set their sights on Kraven and boy will they f--k him up because the entire point of Kraven is that he absolutely has no interest in who Spider-Man is behind his mask. For him Spider-Man is his main interest.



    Guardian Devil is highly overrated and cut from the same cloth as Far From Home.
    I am not saying every villain has to be a serial killer, I think Shocker trying to kill 12 people in that one story was a mistake, unless they wanted his sanity and professionalism to be code words for being a cold hearted psychopath who has no real moral limits and would kill innocent people for a buck, if they wanted him to be sympathetic, he shouldn't be murdering random people for cash.

    There is nothing more dull than villain with no real redeeming qualities, but provides no real stakes either. Does Spidey fight to protect the lives of innocent people or does he fight to protect the insurance rates of big banks?

    Mysterio spending 50 million dollars in special effects to steal 5 million dollars from a bank is a self defeating. Mysterio was not a serial killer in Far From Home, but he did provide real stakes, why should Mysterio be adverse to killing? What in his moral character says that would be the case? Its really hard to make a villain who gas lights people into a sympathetic foe, so may as well go in the opposite direction.

    Some villains like Rhino or Sandman should not kill innocent people on purpose, but with Mysterio, there is no reason why he should be afraid of that line.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    To be fair, he does bring up a valid point.

    How do you make a villain a valid threat without A. simply making them a mass murderer or B. connecting them to the hero in a personal way? The former can especially get egregious to the point that its even more laughable than when they were a joke (remember Mr. Polka Dot/Polka Dot Man? He kills people with polka dots)
    You also lose any sense of Spider-Man as a separate figure from Peter Parker.

    Peter has a double life identity. Few know his personal life, most know just Spider-Man.

    Without a sense of double life, the moments where the villain or someone else finds out his identity has no meaning.

    Like the post-credits scene would have had a greater impact if we hadn't had five movies where everyone calls Spider-Man Peter. Where every bad guy doesn't snarl "Parkerrr!"

    I mean look at Batman, The Dark Knight got Joker right because he doesn't care about Batman behind the mask. He doesn't know so that allows us a sense of Batman as a character.

  13. #28
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Is a hard balance, knowing the hero identity makes the villain and hero dynamics almost written themselves but is unrealistic (and a little lazy) that every villain is able to carry personal grudge with the hero. Not everyone can be Eddie or Norman.

    In the case of Mysterio, i prefer that he doesn't know Spiderman identity but it doesnt bothers me as much as having another villain tied up to Iron Man, either way, i enjoyed Jake Gyllenhaal portrayal and the feeling that Mysterio can become a serious threath.

    I hope that Mysterio never goes to the redemption arc.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    Is a hard balance, knowing the hero identity makes the villain and hero dynamics almost written themselves but is unrealistic (and a little lazy) that every villain is able to carry personal grudge with the hero. Not everyone can be Eddie or Norman.

    In the case of Mysterio, i prefer that he doesn't know Spiderman identity but it doesnt bothers me as much as having another villain tied up to Iron Man, either way, i enjoyed Jake Gyllenhaal portrayal and the feeling that Mysterio can become a serious threath.

    I hope that Mysterio never goes to the redemption arc.
    That is why I suggest Mysterio be made more actively unsympathetic, it's way harder to redeem him when he has some innocent blood on his hands. If Mysterio is just some goofball who robs banks and tries to scare people out an of apartment building and gets beaten by Power Pack, its hard to see him as irredeemable, because he does not seem menacing, he needs to engage in some real villainy to be beyond redemption, which I think he is capable of.

  15. #30
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    That is why I suggest Mysterio be made more actively unsympathetic, it's way harder to redeem him when he has some innocent blood on his hands. If Mysterio is just some goofball who robs banks and tries to scare people out an of apartment building and gets beaten by Power Pack, its hard to see him as irredeemable, because he does not seem menacing, he needs to engage in some real villainy to be beyond redemption, which I think he is capable of.
    Personally, Guardian Devil could've been that point where he was beyond redemption, as the scheme he pulled off there got a number of innocent people killed (including Karen Page), and it was all done because Mysterio was dying of cancer and wanted to be remembered after he died as a great villain.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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