Clint Barton: Hawkeye Appreciation 2020

[OOTCS]

Curious to see whether Clint actually sold the building.
Usually I'd assume yes but Rosenberg was kind of cryptic about it on twitter the other day.

Yeah, it doesn't seem like something he would do, not after he went through all that trouble for it. With this series, I'm just going to assume that I can't take anything for granted, make any assumptions, or believe anything I see. Just gotta let the story go where it goes.

[Matternativ]

Oh I could see him selling it if he knows he did so to someone who is a responsible landlord and there is no point in keeping it around if it's not gonna be used in a story.
But yeah I suspect we'll get to hear more about this.

[SpiderNerd]

I talk about my hopes for the Hawkeye Disney+ series on the latest episode of the Marvel Fan Rave Podcast. Have a listen https://open.spotify.com/episode/1CY...SXWm5a0vEIxnuw

[Matternativ]

So apparently Barney Barton and the track suit Mafia are now confirmed for the Disney+ show.

Tbh no idea how that would work with MCU Clint as he's now but we'll see.

[Sneakronicity]

So apparently Barney Barton and the track suit Mafia are now confirmed for the Disney+ show.

Tbh no idea how that would work with MCU Clint as he's now but we'll see.

I've got my fingers crossed for him to start the series by getting a divorce. It's the only way I can see Fraction!Clint working in the MCU now, and honestly the only thing that could fix his characterization for me. After everything he did in Endgame, those five horrible years, I just can't see how he can return to his family who could never understand that, and who as far as they remember, were just having a picnic yesterday. Every movie just seems to reset Clint's development. Mind controlled by Loki? Fixed off screen by magic secret family. Selvig got more development from Clint with that plot. The fall of SHIELD, the organization Clint was loyal to for years, longer than Natasha was? Had no impact on him at all, again fixed off screen. Opinion on the accords? He has none, just retired to his family instead of making a choice and only showed up later 'cause Cap asked and he was bored. Then he straight up missed a whole Avengers team film, the only one of the OG6 to do so, cause the writers had the convenient excuse of his family to leave him out. No plot has ever had a lasting impression on him, and if he remains happily married man and father in the series I dunno how they can pull this off. He's still pretty much a blank slate, a completely static character who just resets to zero after the credits role. I wanna see some real consequences, want to see him actually having to deal with his ****, and for me there's no way he can ever be a well developed character if he keeps retiring to his farm at the end, again and again.

/rant sorry, I get a bit carried away on this subject as I will always firmly believe that giving him a family is the biggest mistake the MCU ever made, and there's no way to truly make Clint a good character while they exist.

[The no face guy]

Marvel seems to be killing it right now with their writers. The new Hawkeye mini series, is some pretty good light hearted fun.

[Matternativ]

I've got my fingers crossed for him to start the series by getting a divorce. It's the only way I can see Fraction!Clint working in the MCU now, and honestly the only thing that could fix his characterization for me. After everything he did in Endgame, those five horrible years, I just can't see how he can return to his family who could never understand that, and who as far as they remember, were just having a picnic yesterday. Every movie just seems to reset Clint's development. Mind controlled by Loki? Fixed off screen by magic secret family. Selvig got more development from Clint with that plot. The fall of SHIELD, the organization Clint was loyal to for years, longer than Natasha was? Had no impact on him at all, again fixed off screen. Opinion on the accords? He has none, just retired to his family instead of making a choice and only showed up later 'cause Cap asked and he was bored. Then he straight up missed a whole Avengers team film, the only one of the OG6 to do so, cause the writers had the convenient excuse of his family to leave him out. No plot has ever had a lasting impression on him, and if he remains happily married man and father in the series I dunno how they can pull this off. He's still pretty much a blank slate, a completely static character who just resets to zero after the credits role. I wanna see some real consequences, want to see him actually having to deal with his ****, and for me there's no way he can ever be a well developed character if he keeps retiring to his farm at the end, again and again.

/rant sorry, I get a bit carried away on this subject as I will always firmly believe that giving him a family is the biggest mistake the MCU ever made, and there's no way to truly make Clint a good character while they exist.

I don't see that happening at all. There is no way for Clint to become like the Comics Version unless they time travel/alt. Universe him in and I'd also argue that Renner, who I like as an actor, is probably the wrong person to play that kind of character.
He's way too "I'm too old for this ****" in his behaviour, body language etc.
I agree that the writing in the Movies wasn't in his favour, especially on Whedons side (his roles in Civil War and Endgame as well as the planned scene in Winter Soldier convince me that the Russos had a much better idea but had to work with what came before).

I do not think that you need to get rid of his family to write a good character. You d need to get rid of them if you want to write comic book Hawkeye and for that it's about 10 years and one casting decision too late.
That is exactly why I'm curious to see how they'd fit elements from the fraction book in there.

On another Family r lated note:
As self proclaimed "Shipper Trash" how much did you like the fact that Kelly Thompson's "Captain Marvel" had Nat's and Clint's daughter running around?

[OOTCS]

how much did you like the fact that Kelly Thompson's "Captain Marvel" had Nat's and Clint's daughter running around?

I know you didn't ask me and I'm sure I sound like a broken record by now, but I find it frustrating when writers put Clint and Natasha together in future stories and don't explain how they dealt with the issues that broke up Clint and Bobbi, which would be just as relevant (if not more; Natasha is much more willing to kill an enemy than Bobbi is) of an issue with the two of them.

I know that it's just one line in a one shot story and there isn't enough time to properly address it, but to have this happen repeatedly without addressing this issue just seems like the writers aren't engaging seriously with the canon or the characters. (And yes, you can argue that Old Man Hawkeye is an AU that's not supposed to reflect 616 exactly, but it lined up with Clint's life in so many other ways that it was still jarring.)

[your_name_here]

I could see Renners Hawkeye potentially having family issues...but by the end can rekindle them.
I wouldn’t really think a divorce would be the way to go around, just possibly pushing away after what he’s done.

[your_name_here]

On another note, I’ve just finished the reread on Fractions run. Great stuff. The first half is stronger than the second, I feel like it meanders a little through the middle. The Kate stuff is okay but not really necessary...the Clint stuff easily trumps it. All Clint (apartment based) issues are great. Lovely ending. Could’ve easily been the end of “Season One” if Fraction and Aja wanted to keep on going.

[Matternativ]

I know you didn't ask me and I'm sure I sound like a broken record by now, but I find it frustrating when writers put Clint and Natasha together in future stories and don't explain how they dealt with the issues that broke up Clint and Bobbi, which would be just as relevant (if not more; Natasha is much more willing to kill an enemy than Bobbi is) of an issue with the two of them.

I know that it's just one line in a one shot story and there isn't enough time to properly address it, but to have this happen repeatedly without addressing this issue just seems like the writers aren't engaging seriously with the canon or the characters. (And yes, you can argue that Old Man Hawkeye is an AU that's not supposed to reflect 616 exactly, but it lined up with Clint's life in so many other ways that it was still jarring.)

I haven't actually read the comic, just seen Kelly talk about it on twitter so I don't know which versions of anyone we are talking about here.

But really it doesn't need an explanation at all in my book since between "I just loved Nat more", "Bobbi found someone else she loved more" or "I slept with Nat and the condome broke" everything could have happened.

I could see Renners Hawkeye potentially having family issues...but by the end can rekindle them.
I wouldn’t really think a divorce would be the way to go around, just possibly pushing away after what he’s done.

I can see that yeah.
But on the other hand he was called a killer in Avengers 2012 already so it's not like Laura didn't know what kind of guy she married.
Like, he's always killed people all the time ever since they knew each other most probably.

On another note, I’ve just finished the reread on Fractions run. Great stuff. The first half is stronger than the second, I feel like it meanders a little through the middle. The Kate stuff is okay but not really necessary...the Clint stuff easily trumps it. All Clint (apartment based) issues are great. Lovely ending. Could’ve easily been the end of “Season One” if Fraction and Aja wanted to keep on going.

I mean they kinda tried to follow it with the same themes and art style but we all know how that ended.

[OOTCS]

I haven't actually read the comic, just seen Kelly talk about it on twitter so I don't know which versions of anyone we are talking about here.

But really it doesn't need an explanation at all in my book since between "I just loved Nat more", "Bobbi found someone else she loved more" or "I slept with Nat and the condome broke" everything could have happened.

I guess there has to be a balance between "let the reader fill in the blanks" and "let the reader write the whole damn story." In this story, the kids were mostly cameos and there wasn't really room for an explanation (Rhodey's kid's mom didn't even get a name), but as someone who cares about the characters, I want to see how they get from point A to point B, I want to see the tough questions addressed, and I want to see all of the characters involved treated respectfully and thoughtfully by the creators.

It's not a secret that my preference is Clint and Bobbi getting back together for good. In my opinion, their love is beautiful and exceptional for comic book couples, and their story is too compelling for me to want to see it end. That being said, I'm not just "here for my ship." I can be sold on a Clint/Natasha romance if it's done sensitively, and I can even come up myself with some ideas for how to write it, involving a lot of character growth for everyone and without minimizing or retconning their past relationships. (I'll avoid posting details here, just in case the writers stumble across this thread.) I just don't think "Bobbi doesn't exist/isn't important" is a convincing way to go about it.

I can see that yeah.
But on the other hand he was called a killer in Avengers 2012 already so it's not like Laura didn't know what kind of guy she married.
Like, he's always killed people all the time ever since they knew each other most probably.

I don't think his wife would kick him out, but I can see him going into some self-imposed temporary "exile" because of the guilt. When he told Natasha on Vormir that he should die because of the things he'd done, you could see that he believed it. So as hard as it is for me to imagine MCU Clint in the role or Fraction Clint, I can at least picture the setup. I don't think it needs to be divorce, especially since it seems like this is MCU Clint's last hurrah, and they'll probably want to give him a happy ending. Clearly the wife and kids on the farm are something that this character wants—how he envisions his happy ending—so if he's exiting the MCU anyway, they would probably send him back to the farm at the end of the show.

[Matternativ]

I guess there has to be a balance between "let the reader fill in the blanks" and "let the reader write the whole damn story." In this story, the kids were mostly cameos and there wasn't really room for an explanation (Rhodey's kid's mom didn't even get a name), but as someone who cares about the characters, I want to see how they get from point A to point B, I want to see the tough questions addressed, and I want to see all of the characters involved treated respectfully and thoughtfully by the creators.

It's not a secret that my preference is Clint and Bobbi getting back together for good. In my opinion, their love is beautiful and exceptional for comic book couples, and their story is too compelling for me to want to see it end. That being said, I'm not just "here for my ship." I can be sold on a Clint/Natasha romance if it's done sensitively, and I can even come up myself with some ideas for how to write it, involving a lot of character growth for everyone and without minimizing or retconning their past relationships. (I'll avoid posting details here, just in case the writers stumble across this thread.) I just don't think "Bobbi doesn't exist/isn't important" is a convincing way to go about it.



I don't think his wife would kick him out, but I can see him going into some self-imposed temporary "exile" because of the guilt. When he told Natasha on Vormir that he should die because of the things he'd done, you could see that he believed it. So as hard as it is for me to imagine MCU Clint in the role or Fraction Clint, I can at least picture the setup. I don't think it needs to be divorce, especially since it seems like this is MCU Clint's last hurrah, and they'll probably want to give him a happy ending. Clearly the wife and kids on the farm are something that this character wants—how he envisions his happy ending—so if he's exiting the MCU anyway, they would probably send him back to the farm at the end of the show.

Point A) Fair enough. I just think with how constantly things are shifting in comics and how everything that involves traveling to the future is rooted in what's been the most recent happenings in the present it's not really something I ask for as I feel focusing on that front will only be, at best, superfluous or at worst, to the determent of the story you are telling at that point.


B) I'm not sure I could see Clint going into exile after having spent years without his family UNLESS the plot is that he has now a BIG FUCKIN' target on his back from most every mafia and crime family ever because he killed so many of them as Ronin.
In that case I could see him living in some apartment in the open because almost no one knows about his family and he'd protect them by not making them a target.
Asking his brother for help would then also make a lot of sense.

B)

[Sneakronicity]

For me to have him just retire to his farm - again - at the end of the series is the worst possible ending they could give him as it's basically how he ends every movie now. It's tired, and the least creative thing they could do with him. We have already seen it, what, three times already? His character deserves so much more than "comes out of retirement to fight the baddie, then retires" but that's all he gets and it's so frustrating. Even removing my 616 Clint love from the picture and focusing solely on MCU Clint, it's just plain bad writing and non-existent character development.

But there's nothing anyone can say to make me accept the family, unfortunately. Their very existence basically wrote him into a corner. He's barely an Avenger, and has no relationships with any of the others except for Natasha, and even that they downplayed considerably between Age of Ultron to Endgame. I won't even get into how he was treated in Endgame, but I could easily see him unable to go back to his normal life after everything he did and needing to leave it behind, and Laura knew he was a killer, but cleanly killing people for SHIELD and brutally massacring entire gangs of people are completely different things. He's a changed man from the one she knew just yesterday, so I could easily see the marriage falling apart. At least it would be an interesting plotline for the shoe, and good character work for Clint to go through.

I also don't think casting has anything to do with the issues with MCU Clint. Renner did the best he could with what he was given, and even he was unhappy with much of it. But just watching the short lived tv show The Unusuals, I have no doubts he could have made an awesome Clint if Whedon had written any version of the character other than Ultimates.

On a brighter note, though, I absolutely loved Captain Marvel: The End and was so happy with Katie Barton! I would love to see more of her and the other second gen kids, especially in a book that included flashbacks of their parents and what happened in that world. Her appearance definitely made my week!

EDIT: Also, on the Clint/Natasha side of things, a big reason I want to see someone give them an honest shot again is because I want to see how they work through their differing morals. They're both very different people now than they were when they were first together, and I would love to see a writer actually tackle their relationship to see if they could actually make it work this time. I find their dynamic so interesting, and there's clearly a lot of love there, but also a lot of issues. Could make for a great story under the right writer.

[your_name_here]

Did the story with Kate Bishops dead ever re-surface?